Hybrid Guard Tactics (a new and possibly improved concept)

[Frater Cornelius]

Edit: WS Battle Company vs IG Summary
Edit 2: Summaries and the problem with playing IG + a mini rant

Edit 3: Summary against the same WS Battle Company with a solid win this time

I want to talk about that very specific combination of having a Platoon inside a Mech Guard list. Now, there is a certain way I like to build my Mech Guard lists. KARL FRANZ in Punisher with his Executioner buddy, Wyverns, CCS in a Chimera with Plasmas, two units of Vets with 4+ and either Plasmas or Melta in Chimeras. I specifically want Chimeras for those three, because it is a Command Vehicle and it supports that pivotal play style I enjoy about IG. They are basically mobile fire points with Las Arrays, Plasmas up top and their two frontal weapons. I dislike having Tauroxes for my forward Vets since they do not feel heavy enough.

However, the Platoon. Cheap as chips as long as you do not go overboard with weapons and plenty of different play styles. However, what role would they fill in a mech list? I have two ways of incorporating them.

1) As a blob to stop enemy Meltas and Melee units and do some very respectable dakka with Orders.
2) Split up and with Tauroxes.

While I could incorporate both, the blob tactic requires at least one Priest and preferably a Psyker as well for the re-rolls. Both these characters are somewhat wasted when the list goes full mech. However, I find that blobs can be somewhat of a drawback in Mech lists since they are T3 models in a list full of AV12 and AV14.

So, wouldn't it be best to run full mech with Chimeras as mobile fire bases and Tauroxes to drive around and score the hell out of the board? Let the Platoon split up and camp cover with Objectives while the Tauroxes drive forward, draw fire and score due to OS. Maximize the amount of units on the board as opposed to blobbing up.

Do you think that is solid? Or better blob up with support characters? Or if the MSU route is superior, wouldn't naked Vets with one AC not do a better job?

Cheers

[Father Mehman]

That's the way I'd play it. Normally, I'm all for maxing-out Priests and maybe adding a Psyker (I still don't trust the witch) but for a mechanized list I'd go for what you're planning. Sprinkle in some Heavy Weapon Squads and you're gold.

[Frater Cornelius]

In which case, aren't Vets superior? They cost 10pts more but you save yourself a PCS, so it is a net gain, even if you put Forward Sentries on them. Say, two maxed out Vet units with Plasmas in Chimera and three minimalistic Vets with Sentries and one AC in cover, each bringing a Taurox to drive around.

[morroccomole]

In my local meta, I'd either run the platoon out front as bubble wrap agaisnt the ork/eldar assault line, or keep them in the rear to bubble wrap the rear armor of my command tanks against deep striking marines. I have never faced Necrons, Tyranids, or Tau, so there I can't help.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

Even when going primarily mech it is good to have at least a minimal platoon to bubble wrap your armor from alpha strikes.

[WarriorFish]

I like a Platoon for the numbers, if you don't want numbers take Vets. Get a few squads going with cheap upgrades and have then secure territory, objectives and friendly tanks or go out to intercept and annoy the enemy. Vets tend to encourage you to spend a bit more to take advantage of their abilities but infantry squads? Load up on them and send them in, let the enemy drown in dice or squander his good units dealing with them ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

Numbers is not the issue, as I can get 30 IG and PCS for the same price or slightly more than 30 Vets with Sentries. The one deciding factor is the ability to blob.

 

Here are two example lists:

Hidden Content

KARL FRANZ in Punisher with Executioner

CCS with Plasmas, Carapace, Chimera

2 Engineseers

2 Vets with full Plasma, Carapace, Chimeras

3 Vets with Sentries, AC, Tauroxes

3 Wyvern

 

Hidden Content

KARL FRANZ in Punisher with Executioner

2 Priests

2 Vets with full Plasma, Carapace, Chimeras

PCS, Flamers, Chimera

4 IS, AC, Tauroxes

2 Wyvern

1 Basilisk

 

Both are 1650. List one has the same output for the AC and Las despite costing less and they have superior survivability. List two has more Tauroxes and two fearless blobs with 20 each, thus superior board presence at the cost of better Orders and lack of Engineseers (these guys make Chimeras into true dakka fortresses and support my heavy mech presence with PotMS).

[wulfgar hammerfist]

I like the second list. It gives you more mobility and table presence as well as the option to deploy dismounted to protect your artillery if need be. I've found the basilisk to be a bit "meh" for me but your experience may be different.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, it was just a quick sample to demonstrate the options.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Personally I like the idea of my armor pushing forward and my blobs covering their rear against things like deepstrikers etc. Let the tanks push forward and kill what you need dead then use vets to run up and take the objectives you need.

[Frater Cornelius]

Do you think an aegis line is worth it? That is one Taurox worth of points. Add more if you have Yarrick in the Blob to operate a gun. Or better add munitions dump for those re-rolls?

[WarriorFish]

If you're planning on standing on the defensive with some elements of a list an Aegis is worth considering I think.

[Frater Cornelius]

The Blob will rarely move. However, when taking a big investment like Knight or BB variant at 1650, I usually need to choose between Aegis and Tauroxes. I need that scoring power. I could not bring one, but in my Meta, I need every unfair advantage I can get and luckily, no one is running enough AT to bring down a BB variant before getting eaten alive.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Here's the way I plan to do it. Command squads and Veterans get Chimeras, while Platoon Infantry squads get Tauroxes. The Taurox gives them a rerollable dangerous terrain, and a twin linked autocannon for supporting fire. The command squads need to be able to issue orders from their transport so that's whay they get chimeras. The Chimeras and Tauroxes can move at the same speed so there's no loss of mobility. 

 

Vets get a Chimera because the extra weapons and armor up front give them more support, where the Infantry squads don't need it as much since they should be near another infantry squad. 

 

That's just how I see it. I'm going to be making my standard infantry into a mech unit, that will be using tanks and artillery. 

[Frater Cornelius]

I had some thoughts about it, and I think I will neither take CCS nor Pask. My meta will chew them up way too quickly (full of cut-throat lists). I think I like this approach:

Hidden Content

Yarrick

PCS - 3 Flamers, Vox, Chimera, Dozer

IS1 - Vox, AC, Taurox

IS2 - AC, Taurox

IS3 - AC, Taurox

Vets - 4+, 3 Plasmas, Chimera, Dozer

Vets - 4+, 3 Plasmas, Chimera, Dozer

Aegis Line - Icarus or Quad Gun

 

When the IS blob up, Yarrick goes there to operate the AA gun with his BS. No Priests so that I can go to ground behind the Aegis. When faced with Wyvern, Lobbas or other infantry busters, they will all mech up in their Tauroxes while Yarrick joins the PCS in their Chimera so he can toss hos orders from there.

 

I think that is pretty solid as far as mech goes. Solid field presence and just over 1k points. I would bring the standard two Wyvern and a ML2 Psyker. Not sure what else, either two solo LR tanks or similar, or just go balls out and bring a Stormsword with 1 pair of sponsons. Since no one plays Skits, they will have a hard time moving a BB variant from behind an Aegis Line and bubble wrapped by the Platoon.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

Looks like a solid list. I would consider a couple of minor tweaks. I would drop one plasma gun from each vet squad since you can only fire two guns out of the top hatch. The third could come into play when the chimera gets destroyed but if you have bigger things to worry the opponent (BB variant) they may become more survivable. The next is to consider swapping the aegis for a skyshield. The difference is that the skyshield gives a 4++ invulnerable save whereas the aegis is only a cover save. Granted, you can get a better cover save using the aegis but there are too many units that ignore cover for my liking. As for the BB variant, for me it's a toss up between the Stormsword and the Shadowsword. The Storm has the bigger area of effect and S10, so I definitely get the attraction but the Shadow gives you a S:D large blast. Perhaps the S10 is better in the end as you're doubling out the big T5 nasty guys, but the Shadow is a little cheaper. I'll have to take a closer look at it.

 

With either variant you're hovering around the 1600 point range with that set up. 

[Frater Cornelius]

I prefer the Aegis for numerous reason. I can go to ground for a 3+ cover. There are not many long ranged anti-infantry guns capable of ignoring cover on a consistent basis. It bring a weapon on ammo dump. And finally, while cheesy, you can deny the enemy the assault even if he is right in front of you by not being in base contact with the Aegis, but not leaving enough space for him to be able to place his models. Yeah, it is not friendly, but sometimes you got to go for it.

I find the Stormsword superior, because of ignoring cover and the ability to target multiple units with one blast. A large blast will target one unit only most of the time. Also, just one D roll is not good enough. I prefer removing large chunks reliably as opposed to hoping for that 6.

When the BB variant is not an option, I am wondering if I should include some HS Leman Russ Tanks. I will have a Primaris ML2 with Divination, so I am considering a full Plasmacutioner with Dozer for 190pts. Maybe a second Leman Russ as well? Not a fan of the Tank Commander to be fair, the tax is pretty high and I dislike having to squadron my vehicles.

Two Wyvern will be in there as well.

Let me know what else you would add to the list in terms of Mech (except super-heavies)

[librisrouge]

I prefer the Aegis for numerous reason. I can go to ground for a 3+ cover. 

*cough* +2 cover *cough*

 

What I think about for mech, is a Steel Host. My current list, which I'm greatly enjoying, is a Steel Host + CAD for infantry support (mounted veterans.) Why take a Steel Host you ask? Great question fellow officer. You see, a Steel Host allows the average IG player to field a significant plethora of the Imperium's finest fighting machine, the Leman Russ. While you do have to take a Hydra (I'm sorry) you benefit from a group of tanks that are trained under the watchful eye of a skilled commander (Preferred Enemy bubble) that enabled the crew of his subordinate tanks to fight in a more effective manner. Additionally, for those interesting in the venerable Executioner variant, the watchful eye of the commander further ensures that the tank crew is diligent in their maintenance and supplication regimes (PE's bonus to Get's Hot helps a ton here.)

 

Tank on friends, tank on.

[Frater Cornelius]

Steel Host you say? That is an option. Does it require me to take one Tank Commander (one tank) as HQ or do I need the minimum of two? If not, at 1850 I would be able to bring:

 

Yarrick

30 dudes, 3 AC

3 Tauroxes

PCS and 2 Vets

3 Chimeras

Aegis with Ammo Dump

Steel Host:

Pask in Punisher with full HB

2 full Plasmacutioners

Eraducator with full HB

Hydra (this is good, since I can take the ammo dump instead of the quad gun)

 

At 1650 I would drop one Vet Squad and one Dozer Blade somewhere. I would be lacking Wyvern, but that is a solid comp, only second to the Stormsword setup, because sets face it, one shot from the Stormsword will cripple just about any army. Still, it feels a little incomplete.

 

Any thoughts on the Steel Host + my list above? I like my blob and Aegis, they are mandatory in today's alpha strike heavy meta. Maybe other ideas besides Super-Heavies and Steel Host?

[librisrouge]

Sadly, the Steel Host does require a legal tank commander, so he abides by the buddy system.

[Frater Cornelius]

That is a bummer. Then it will become a bit too bloated for my taste. You see, I would take 2 Plasmacutioners full loadout as HQ and three Eradicators with full HB to compensate fo the lack of Wyvern, but that is already so expensive, that you can not take my setup above. I would need to limit it to 1 Vets and the Blob with Tauroxes and that would be 1750pts already. Protecting 5 LR is pretty hard. I would take three at most. If the buddy system was not there, I would take it but as it stands, I will save it for dedicated Mech lists without a Platoon (and for when I will get my 5th LR box as I only own four at the present time :D).

[Frater Cornelius]

BTW, thanks librisrouge for the suggestion on the Vets. I have made an adjustment, that should increase their efficiency.

 

Here is an update:

Hidden Content

CAD

Yarrick (Warlord and Pimp)

Primaris - ML2

 

10 Vets - 2 Plasmas, Heavy Flamer, Grenadiers

+ Chimera, Dozer

10 Vets - 2 Plasmas, Heavy Flamer, Grenadiers

+ Chimera, Dozer

 

PCS - 3 Flamers, Vox

+ Chimera, Dozer

IS 1 - Vox, AC

+ Taurox

IS 1 - Vox, AC

+ Taurox

IS 1 - Vox, AC

+ Taurox

 

2x Wyvern (can be solo or Squadron, depending on how many HS slots I need)

 

Aegis Line (still needs an upgrade, I am torn between Quad Gun and Ammo Dump)

 

1235

 

Now, this is where I would usually put in a Stormsword or Knight. But lets leave those for now. I have 415-615pts to fill. The Platoon is pretty much set. What I need now is some big guns and an Aegis upgrade. Hm, should I go for a solo Punisher with full HB and solo Executioner with full Plasma, supported by Ammo Dump and Primaris, or reconsider Pask with Executioner buddy? Pask is really nice, but the split-fire is not guaranteed and one Centurion volley + Ignore Cover from Tiggy can mean the end of 425 very expensive points and Warlord.

 

Thoughts?

[librisrouge]

Have you considered the other Russ variants? With your proclivity for longer ranged fighting, Vanquishers would not be a bad idea, ammo dumps and psykers helping their accuracy. Demolishers also help when it comes time to advance. Both are good against AV targets.

 

You might also, though, as a tanker, this vexes me to say, consider some air power. Two vendettas, plus SWSs from the platoon, could be good fun.

 

Lastly, I'd drop the psyker from a pure mech list. He can't use his blessings while in a vehicles, which means dismounting if he wants to be regularly useful. That means he'll be isolated and killed since IG infantry doesn't survive long in the open.

[Frater Cornelius]

The Psyker is to enhance the tanks. Also, the dudes will be de-meched at some point or want to disembark. Finally, the Platoon will usually blob up with Yarrick. They only mech up when I am facing cover ignoring anti infantry fire like Wyverns or Lobbas. As for flyers, I am planning a Vulture, once I have the money. But that is out until Christmas I believe Not a fan of the Vendetta. Too expensive for what it does. A Vulture does it better since it can almost always reach the rear armour with Vector Dancer.

The other Russ variants. Hm, it is all fair game. The one Plasmacutioner is always an auto-include for me. So much dakka. I would not like any of the Ordnance Tank, as they do not seem to match their cost in firepower. However, full dakka Punisher or Eradicator are fair game, just as the Exterminator. Not a fan f the Vanquisher, since even with re-rolls it will only shot 5-7 times per game. Not good enough.

Here is the thought. Get 1235pts from above, add Pask in Punisher and Executioner buddy with sponsons and dozer blades, a Hydra and a Tech Priest and ammo dump. This is 1790pts with 60 to go for anything.

The alternative option is to take the 1235pts, add a fully equipped Punisher and Executioner in the HS slot, adding an ammo dump. This adds up to 1610pts, leaving me 40-240pts to go. I suppose this one is solid when I am playing 1650pts. But I have no idea what to add to get up to 1850. Would the first one be superior?

[librisrouge]

If you're looking for an ordinance tank that is more cost effective, strongly look at the Thunderer Siege Tank. For a 30 point price break you get a Space Marine Vindicator mounted on a Leman Russ hull. Rules for it are in IA1, 2nd Ed. I'd give it a once over, I converted two.

 

When you field your Vulture, magnetize that sucker. Remember that many flyers, especially the marine ones, don't have a weaker rear armor. Giving the Vulture hunter killler missiles and a twin lascannon makes it a great dogfighter against those flyers that punisher cannons cannot even tough.

 

As far as your lists, I prefer the first setup, if only because of what Pask does for your anti-armor, which is rather weak at the moment. That rending, re-roll to pen punisher cannon makes swiss cheese out of most enemy armor. Your second list lacks a way to effectively combat knights, or even other Russ lists. Against me you'd lose because you couldn't even really fight against a Steel Host. (That may of sounded braggadocios but I am merely trying to give an example, I promise.)