Hybrid Guard Tactics (a new and possibly improved concept)

[Cap'm Heckus]

Yeah, sadly, an all mechanized list just isn't optimal to use against marines these days with all that grav. My experience has been that a mix is better. Fewer AV targets and more boots. S3 las fire work best when you've got 20-30 dudes all fire at the same target.

[librisrouge]

20-30?

Pffft! Mordian wisdom applies here friends. Fifty man blobs firing in formation is a wondrous sight burned into your enemy's retinas!

 

EDIT: As far as the options of melee gear in a platoon blob, it really depends on their use. If you're not going to get in melee regularly then they're not nearly worth it. Just having a ton of men that are fearless and have re-roll to hit is often enough. If you find the enemy charging you all of the time (or the other way around) then go ahead and pick up and axe or two (also: meltabombs.)

[Frater Cornelius]

50 dudes doing FRFSRF will kill around 8-9 MEQ or 4-5 Bikes. Not good enough, when you can load them up with Plasma and order them to ignore cover.

[Emicus]

 Is the Guard weak, or is Marine grav spam just disgusting?

 

... I think everyone has to figure that out for themselves.

 

Though the hardcounter to grav is a million men with flashlights and cardboard armour. But I think if you wanted to play that sort of game, you'd already do it. 

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[Frater Cornelius]

Well, the next game is about to happen. The losses yesterday was me being a bad general and having a rather suboptimal weapon distribution. Lets see if today will be any different ;)

[WarriorFish]

Good luck :tu:

[Emicus]

Good luck!

 

(Pictures please)

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[librisrouge]

Good tactics! (luck is for heretics.)

[Frater Cornelius]

Revenge is a dish best served with tactical precision and overwhelming firepower. I played two games today. First one was against the very same WS Battle Company. Once again, it was a bloodbath. It ended with him being tabled bottom of T6 with around half of my forces still up.

I did not repeat my mistakes and even my opponent was surprised to see his army being systematically slaughtered. He said it was like being suddenly hit with cold water. Unpleasant surprise :D

 

Here is the updated list from above:

Hidden Content

CCS - 2 Plasmas, Medic, Vox, Carapace on everyone, Aquila

+ Chimera, Dozer

 

Priest - Plasma

 

PCS - 3 Flamers, Vox, Bolter

+ Chimera, Dozer

IS 1 - AC, Plasma, Vox, MB

IS 2 - AC, Plasma, MB

IS 3 - AC, Plasma, MB

 

Vets - 3 Plasma, Vox, Carapace, Bolter

+ Chimera, Dozer

Vets - 3 Melta, Vox, Carapace, Bolter

+ Chimera, Dozer

 

Vendetta

 

Punisher - 3 HB, Stubber, Dozer

Eradicator - 3 HB, Stubber, Dozer

 

2 Wyvern

 

Coteaz

Inquisitor - TDA, Hammer, Psycannon, 3 Skulls

 

1850pts

 

He had first turn and could not do anything due to my skulls and placement so he just went 12 and popped smoke. His one Melta Pod landed and Immobilized my PCS Chimera.

My turn was devastating. Coteaz casted Ignore Cover on the Blob and the CS ordered Split Fire. The INQ and one Chimera killed one Rhino while the Plasmas exploded another. The Punisher deleted one emerging unit whioe the Wyvern ate the other one. The Vets and CS moved up one flank and between them they destroyed another Rhino and killed the dudes inside and killed a few Scouts. The Eradicator tried to kill the Meltas on the other flank but missed the pie plate and only killed 1 dude.

 

His second turn did not accomplish much due to him now being very out of place. He killed a few GM and charged them with the CS, only to have the INQ tank all the wounds with his 2+ rerollable while they killed a few dudes. Next turn the same happened and they killed all but Khan who was at 1W, the Apoth and two dudes. They fled and then got charged by the Blob and eaten up.

The Vet flank was cleared T3 at the cost of one Chimera. He tried to take it back but he did not have enough dudes left. He only managed to kill a few more Vets and took a point T4 only to be pushed away by T5.

The Center got cleared by the Blob and CS. The Punisher died to an unlucky save. I lost control of the Eradicator flank due to it failing to hit and the Melta dudes killing it and the PCS. I took the flank back T6 when the Blob shot the Scouts away and the CS killed the last pod with point blank tank hunter Plasmas.

 

The CS offered far more than Yarrick. The shooting, the extra Chimera, the PE bubble, which was very useful on the Vets and wounding with the Blob (they usually has rerolls to hit up). Very good choice. Playing the Vets together and securing one flank was super easy and far better than spreading out.

The Platoon was a beast. The addition of the 4 Plasmas made them go from 'aight' to 'WTH'. The INQ was beast with split firing his Psycannon and melee, very solid addition. The Blob itself did not suffer mobility issues since I deployed the AC at the front so they only moved one the entire game and I still dominated the center. The Platoon was 11/10, would play it again. It was a literal game maker.

The Punisher was the infantry murderer I needed. The Executioner was too unreliable. This list has enough means of demeching the opponent and the Punisher ate the squishy Marines alive.

It was a poor decision to drop the Wyvern. They did loads of work. 5 Bikes? One phase. 5 dudes? One phase. These guys did great, en par with the Punisher and only second to the Platoon of doom.

 

The Eradicator was too unreliable and not worth saving the 20pts. If I had a second Punisher, I would not have lost the left flank and the game would have been over T4.

The Vendetta did nothing and died top of T4. Too many points for what it does.

The PCS was also useless. As always, it was the first casualty, but it delayed the opponent. Maybe it would have been different with Punisher support.

 

The score was 9 to 14 in the end. Waaaay too close. But this was me missing 170pts and losing the left side. Granted, I did not want to push the left, thus wasting a bike squad and Grav devs worth of shooting for him. My plan was to overwhelm mid and right then steamroll to left. Still, a Punisher and 170 addition points would have kept them back at the left long enough for me to gain the upper hand, so that was the reason the points were so close.

 

Game 2 was mainly a fun game against UM CAD. While the TFC and Bike CS and CM killed the Platoon, he got tabled T4 by the might of the two Punishers and Plasma Vets.

 

Good games and definitely refreshing. Tactical thinking and analysis helped me dominate. Something I never did as Marines. IG is far more fun because of that.

 

List of mistakes and fixes soon to come ;) also, what do you think I should replace the Vendetta with? I feel I want some heavier AT than S7 in addition to the Melta Vets, but I also accept other ideas.

[WarriorFish]

I need to make a "the Lord Commissar was right" T-shirt Well done on quite the turn arounds

[wulfgar hammerfist]

The list looks solid but I still think you're a little light on AV 13/14 killing ability. Oddly enough, the Guard struggles in general with this though.

 

Some suggestions -

Manticore - S10 ordnance will help kill tanks and pile wounds on squads. It can also double out TWC and other T5 nasties.

A lascannon HWS behind an ADL with an ammo dump. This will give you additional tank killing power.

Add an astropath for another cheap warp charge to fuel Coteaz.

 

Well done though, especially against the WS Battle Company. I have been using them as my competitive list for some time now and they can be really nasty.

[Frater Cornelius]

Hm. I would looooooove to take a Manticore, but I am all out of HS slots. I will not replace the Punishers and I will not group them. If anything, I might drop the Wyvern, but I am unsure, if that is a good idea.

 

I agree on lack of AV14 and Wraithknight killing ability. The WK might actually be less of a problem with Plasmas and Orders. AV13 will also be glanced to death. The amount of S7 the Platoon puts out is harrowing. Add re-rolls to hit and Tank Hunter order and you can kiss them good bye.

 

Basically, enemy Baneblades, Superheavies with Hellstorm and AV14 is what bothers me. I do not like the HWT, given their fragility and amount of S6+ around.

A Manticore might be a good allrounder and a Devil Dog with MM might also be decent choice. The DD comes at 150 with MM and Dozer, leaving me 20pts, which I will probably spend on Melta Bombs.

The Manticore would force me to drop Wyvern, giving me another 130pts, which is a Hellhound with Dozer. Worth it? Questionable.

Lastly, there also also deep striking Melta Scions, but that is a but unreliable, if you ask me.

[march10k]

The only thing stopping you from running a fully mechanized platoon is model availability.  I ran two platoons of four chimeras plus a CCS chimera under the old codex.  Six sentinels later, the enemy ran out of ammo for its tank hunters, lol.  And I still had points left for my own tanks.

 

Under this codex, there's really no reason to do this, though, unless you want more mechanized squads than you have troops FOC slots.  I haven't yet run more than four mechanized veteran squads this edition, precisely because an empty chimera dedicated to a troops choice has "objective secured."  As such, I just roll with fully-meched forward sentries with nothing but autocannons on the squads.  Most of the time, the squads sit in some ruins to enjoy a 3++, the chimeras shoot for 2-3 turns, then start moving 18" a turn to grab objectives...but I have the option of putting the vets behind AV12 without sacrificing much shooting, if there are too many heavy flamers on the table, which usually means hell turkeys.

 

Objective secured transports really killed the mechanized platoon. If they went  back to a couple of editions ago, where the vehicle itself didn't get superscoring, but you could superscore from inside...well, that would make a mechanized platoon relevant again, I'd probably run one rather large mech  platoon (giving the squads nothing but a flamer) with heavy flamer chimeras, supported by a couple forward sentries squads (probably just 2) with heavy bolter chimeras for additional fire support.

[Frater Cornelius]

Thanks for your input, but that ain't the topic any longer. You are a few pages too late I should probably rename the topic.

Anyway, to continue with the current list, I have one solid setup with a BB variant now:

Hidden Content

CCS - 2 Plasmas, Medic, Vox, Carapace on everyone, Aquila
+ Chimera, Dozer

Priest - Plasma

PCS - 3 Melta, Vox, Bolter
+ Chimera, Dozer
IS 1 - AC, Plasma, Vox, MB
IS 2 - AC, Plasma, MB
IS 3 - AC, Plasma, MB

Vets - 3 Plasma, Vox, Carapace, Bolter
+ Chimera, Dozer
Vets - 3 Melta, Vox, Carapace, Bolter
+ Chimera, Dozer

Wyvern

Wyvern

Stormsword - 1 pair of sponsons with HB/LC

(Can be replaced for a Stormlord, if I want to mech up my Platoon)

Coteaz
Inquisitor - 3 Skulls ( I was kind of sad, that I needed to drop the TDA with Psycannon, but it means either keeping it, or skipping on BB sponsons or dropping the Aquila from the CCS. I think dropping the Psycannon was the better choice)

1850pts

My non SH list is also reaching a workable form:

Hidden Content

CCS - 2 Plasmas, Medic, Vox, Carapace on everyone, Aquila
+ Chimera, Dozer

Priest - Plasma

PCS - 3 Flamers or 2 Melta, Vox, Bolter
+ Chimera, Dozer
IS 1 - AC, Plasma, Vox, MB
IS 2 - AC, Plasma, MB
IS 3 - AC, Plasma, MB

Vets - 3 Plasma, Vox, Carapace, Bolter
+ Chimera, Dozer
Vets - 3 Melta, Vox, Carapace, Bolter
+ Chimera, Dozer

Punisher - 3 HB, Dozer
Punisher - 3 HB, Dozer

2 Wyvern

Coteaz
Inquisitor - TDA, Hammer, Psycannon, 3 Skulls

1690pts

This one still has 160pts to go. Option are a third Melta Gun on the PCS and a Devil Dog with Dozer and MM or two units of 5 Rough Riders, each with 2 Meltas and a Melta Bomb. Both are solid in my eyes, but they do not feel heavy enough for my tasted. Do you think there are other options? Maybe some shooty fortifications?

Edit: Two Vengeance Weapon Batteries with Battle Cannons cost 170pts. I will have two AV14 units firing large blasts, that somewhat mitigate their BS2. Yes, they need to fire at the closest target, but they are very cheap and they provide solid fire support. They can also be used to block alpha strike by placing them to block your vehicles. Thoughts about adding those?

[librisrouge]

I know that it is somewhat off topic but where did you acquire an aquila lander? And where can I get one? FW doesn't sell them any more and I've been wanting one for a CCS for some time. I'd find a way to get the money if FW still offered them.

[Frater Cornelius]

It is the Kurovs Aquila, the PE Bubble. I would never play the Lander :D

[librisrouge]

Ah. That does make more sense. I seem to be the lander's only fan out there. I should have known better given how much I'm a fan of the Kurov's Aquila. I like the SH list.

[Frater Cornelius]

I am seriously considering two Battle Cannon Vengeance Batteries to add to the non-SH list. They are scoring, block alpha strike by denying area and giving cover, can shoot decently well and at the right targets if you plan your game accordingly. The list would look like this:

Hidden Content

CCS - 2 Plasmas, Medic, Vox, Carapace on everyone, Aquila
+ Chimera, Dozer

Priest - Plasma

PCS - 3 Flamers, Vox, Bolter, MB
+ Chimera, Dozer
IS 1 - AC, Plasma, Vox, MB
IS 2 - AC, Plasma, MB
IS 3 - AC, Plasma, MB

Vets - 3 Plasma, Vox, Carapace, Bolter
+ Chimera, Dozer
Vets - 3 Melta, Vox, Carapace, Bolter
+ Chimera, Dozer

Punisher - 3 HB
Punisher - 3 HB

2 Wyvern

 

2 Vengeance Batteries - 2 Battle Cannons

Coteaz
Inquisitor - TDA, Hammer, Psycannon, 3 Skulls

1850pts

 

Good idea? Or better stick with RR or DD?

 

Edit: The Vengeance also benefits from the Servo Skulls.

[librisrouge]

Since your meta is devoid of serious heavy armor, that list should be just great at blasting marines off the table. Give it a shot.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, devoid of A14. AV13 is there in form of Necrons, Fish Tau and Knights. I know that the upcoming Berlin cup has 1/3-1/4 Marine variants, another 1/2 are Eldar and Necrons while the rest is the other armies and not a single IG player there as I am not participating this time. Besides, I love ground-pounders. So yeah, that list is up for testing next week. I hope I can find some players.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

The VWBs are ok in my book. The fact that they must fire at the closest target takes them out of the good category. A smart opponent will just give you a target that you can't hurt. I played against a list today that had six Land Raiders in it. Battle cannons can't touch that. I would stick with the RRs or maybe another CCS with melta in a vehicle.

[Frater Cornelius]

On the other hand, I can shoot up things in a way that the VWB fires at something useful. At the present time I do not own any anyway, so RR might just be tested first. We will see.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

Fair enough. The efforts of the general do play a large role in the game. I like to take as many variables or quirky things out of the game that I can so I don't like things that take choices away from me. 

[Frater Cornelius]

How about Conscripts? 20 dudesmen with a Priest for 85pts just to go forward and score or act as tarpit? Helps against alpha strike as well.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

Conscripts are always useful and get ignored a lot of the time since they're fearless and low cost. I try to include 20-30 in most lists for their utility.