Frater Cornelius Posted August 11, 2015 Author Share Posted August 11, 2015 I think that 30 would get too crowded for me. 20 is a solid number. Any idea how to get a Melta Bomb in there at a manageable cost? Or maybe stick the Psycannon Inquisitor in there so that I do not need to order split fire half the time to have him fire at something else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311778-hybrid-guard-tactics-a-new-and-possibly-improved-concept/page/4/#findComment-4143799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfgar hammerfist Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 I think putting the Psy Inquisitor is a good option. If you want a meltabomb in there then probably the cheapest route is to use an enginseer in there for 45 points which is not really cheap for what he brings along. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311778-hybrid-guard-tactics-a-new-and-possibly-improved-concept/page/4/#findComment-4144178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap'm Heckus Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Commissar with meltabombs is cheaper at only 30. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311778-hybrid-guard-tactics-a-new-and-possibly-improved-concept/page/4/#findComment-4144294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfgar hammerfist Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Commissars can't take meltabombs, only Lord Commissars can. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311778-hybrid-guard-tactics-a-new-and-possibly-improved-concept/page/4/#findComment-4144299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap'm Heckus Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Oops Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311778-hybrid-guard-tactics-a-new-and-possibly-improved-concept/page/4/#findComment-4145216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 15, 2015 Author Share Posted August 15, 2015 Alrighty, two more games today. One against SW + WS Conclave + SM, which was a stomp. He conceded top of T2. TWC are simply too fragile to survive this amount of dakka and Centurions were unlucky, as they landed in Coteaz bubble. The second game was also a stomp, but this time I got pounded into the dirt by UM pods. Two units of Centurions, TFC and Sternguard killed half my army right off the bat and Orbital Strike managed to blow up my Command Chimera and Immobilize my Plasma Chimera. I conceded T2. I learned a good bunch. Firstly, I think I will go back to Plasmacutioners. Yes, they require far more maintenance and I am still thinking about sponsons, but ultimately they are better against things that counter me. They would have easily turned the tide in the second game by killing both Centurion units. Rough riders did fine in the first game. One died rather quickly, but the other one managed to get some ignore cover Meltas on bikes and then charged them fairly well. I might reduce them down to one unit though, but they were not bad. In the second game they died right off the bat. Too much dakka. And the final and probably most glaring issue: I am very weak against non-Melta alpha strike. Two Grav Centurion units, TFC, Skitarii in Pods. Anything that does not care about my bubble wrap has the potential to end the game T1. On the subject of the Blob, it is still far too fragile. It is useful in some games but against long-ranged dakka or even Bolters they fold way too fast. They do fine against Eldar and Crons, funnily enough, but quality Bolter fire is their doom. New changes will be to get the Plasmacutioners back on, give the INQ the Liber Heresius to Scout the Blob forward. Not sure how to fix the alpha strike problem though. It is a game breaker for me to lose mobility early on when in comes to scoring. Anyway, let me know what you think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311778-hybrid-guard-tactics-a-new-and-possibly-improved-concept/page/4/#findComment-4147423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 You can't protect against all types of alpha strike, so I wouldn't worry too much there. Much will be down to how the table is and the dice go. Same with the blob, good bolter fire will be good against them but their role is not to handle bolter squads. You can't have your cake and eat it, at least not in our codex :P Keep getting games in and trying things out :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311778-hybrid-guard-tactics-a-new-and-possibly-improved-concept/page/4/#findComment-4147438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 15, 2015 Author Share Posted August 15, 2015 Hm, but I can take the cake, load it into a big cannon and fire it at the enemy. But you are right. I did plenty of mistakes once again and simply the inclusion of the Plasmacutioners and proper positioning could've done the trick. But hey, that is the purpose of these exercises :D The trick would have been to put all the Chimeras on the front line with their side armour, since Grav does not care and I get further with disembarking. Since the tanks can only be wrecked, I can hide the Blob behind them and then come out and shoot after the storm is over. I will be on foot, but the echo will be nasty. I had my infantry up front and Chimeras had front to the front, which set me back around 6". That was the error this time around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311778-hybrid-guard-tactics-a-new-and-possibly-improved-concept/page/4/#findComment-4147449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfgar hammerfist Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I like Executioners but I think they will fall prey to a grav or melta alpha strike just like your chimeras. Grav doesn't care if you're AV 10 or 15. It's going to do the same thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311778-hybrid-guard-tactics-a-new-and-possibly-improved-concept/page/4/#findComment-4147502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 15, 2015 Author Share Posted August 15, 2015 I like Executioners but I think they will fall prey to a grav or melta alpha strike just like your chimeras. Grav doesn't care if you're AV 10 or 15. It's going to do the same thing. Yeah, so only output matters against Grav. If an Executioner should survive, it will wipe out an entire Centurion unit. A Punisher will not. So in terms of offensive potential, the Executioner is still what you need, even though it requires more maintenance (PE bubble or Prescience). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311778-hybrid-guard-tactics-a-new-and-possibly-improved-concept/page/4/#findComment-4147510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 15, 2015 Author Share Posted August 15, 2015 I have had some time to think and it looks like a new concept might be in order to maximize efficiency. I will compare it to my thrice improved old one. The additions and changes are very minor, but the changes to gameplay are pretty big. First of all, here is the old one: Hidden Content CCS - 2 Plasma, Vox, Carapace on everyone, Aquila+ Chimera, DozerPriest - PlasmaPCS - 2 Flamers, Vox, Bolter, MB+ Chimera, DozerIS 1 - AC, Plasma, Vox, MBIS 2 - AC, Plasma, MBIS 3 - AC, Plasma, MBVets - 3 Plasma, Vox, Carapace, Bolter+ Chimera, DozerVets - 3 Melta, Vox, Carapace, Bolter+ Chimera, DozerExecutioner - full PlasmaExecutioner - full Plasma 2 Wyvern 2 Vengeance Batteries - 2 Battle CannonsCoteazInquisitor - 3 Skulls, Liber Heresius1835pts The idea here is to have a big 30man blob scouting and moving towards the mid field and hold it, while the Leman Russ and Wyvern provide long-ranged support and the Chimeras thunder up one flank and then roll across the field. The Vengeance Batteries help with alpha strike. I have 2 Plasma Blasts, Wyvern Barrage and 10 Plasma Blasts that can benefit from servo skulls. This can make for a deadly first turn, which I am likely to keep and pretty likely to get with Coteaz. This build is very centralized and it can suffer from crowded deployment and lack of mobility since it is forced to abandon one side of the board for full efficiency. The new idea: Hidden Content CCS - 2 Plasma, Vox, Carapace on everyone, Aquila+ Chimera, DozerPriest - Plasma Priest - PlasmaPCS - 2 Flamers, Vox, Bolter, MB+ Chimera, DozerIS 1 - AC, Plasma, Vox, MBIS 2 - AC, Plasma, MBIS 3 - AC, Plasma, Vox, MB IS 4 - AC, Plasma, MBVets - 3 Plasma, Vox, Carapace, Bolter+ Chimera, DozerVets - 3 Melta, Vox, Carapace, Bolter+ Chimera, DozerExecutioner - full PlasmaExecutioner - full Plasma 2 WyvernCoteazInquisitor - 3 Skulls, TDA, Psycannon, Hammer 1830pts The idea here is based around 2x 20man blobs. One blob has Coteaz, a Priest and 20 dudes while the other has the Inquisitor, a Priest and 20 dudes. Both blobs have 3 Plasma Guns each and 2 AC. In fact, I might even drop the AC to have more bodies and better mobility. Each of those blobs gets an Executioner that rides with them, either in range of the PE bubble of with Prescience on it. The Chimeras can then support where ever necessary or drive up the middle. Given that the blobs are split, the Liber loses value. You might even argue, that Coteaz is not worth it anymore, but he can still protect one flank from pods and is only 25pts above a Primaris and bring seizing insurance. Both blobs have a 2+ save up front. This has the advantage of mobility. I can maneuver more easily and threaten more parts of the board, while having more S7 shots than ever. What I lose is long-ranged pressure though. I have no Vengeance Batteries. I might exchange 1 Russ for 2 Vengeance Battle Cannons, and have the single Russ follow the CCS around for PE. This frees Prescience up for other stuff. So, basically the second approach has some sort of sub-divisions that operate on different parts of the battle field as opposed to a centralized approach. 1. Do you think that the more flexible approach of the second option is worth axing the long-ranged firepower of the VWB? Or do you think that the second approach is too vulnerable to work well? 2. If the second approach is the way to go, do you think that axing the AC on the units to increase ablative wounds and mobility is worth it? 3. Any other comments? Cheers ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311778-hybrid-guard-tactics-a-new-and-possibly-improved-concept/page/4/#findComment-4147530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfgar hammerfist Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 I like the two separate units as it allows you to effect more of the battlefield. I do worry about the CCS ability to survive. An opponent will quickly identify it's importance to your list and it's a lot of points in a fragile basket. You can protect it but it will take a lot of concentration to balance that along with keeping it in range to provide PE to the important stuff. Not impossible but will take some micro-managing I think. I'm not a fan of VWBs but we've already discussed that. I think your list is aggressive enough to close the gap and not need them but I can see the benefit of adding some ranged pressure. I'm going to take a look at the rapier batteries for my own IG list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311778-hybrid-guard-tactics-a-new-and-possibly-improved-concept/page/4/#findComment-4148148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 16, 2015 Author Share Posted August 16, 2015 I think it is unavoidable for IG to have their CCS be a high profile target, being the only one capable of taking relics and being able to throw out orders and stuff. I do not think that there is any other option for a mobile PE platform, but I will be glad to be proven wrong ;) I think it really is the cut between offensive and defensive. My previous list is a very good gun line, while the reworked one is more capable on the offense. On paper, anyway :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311778-hybrid-guard-tactics-a-new-and-possibly-improved-concept/page/4/#findComment-4148184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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