Ravenwing vs White Scars

[Crazy Jay]

I know all through 6th, the common rhetoric was that White Scars were the better bike army. How do they stack up in 7th? I know one of the big ticket items that WS had over us was grav guns and we have those now. Just curious how we stand now.

[aura_enchanted]

I know all through 6th, the common rhetoric was that White Scars were the better bike army. How do they stack up in 7th? I know one of the big ticket items that WS had over us was grav guns and we have those now. Just curious how we stand now.

It's sort of a trade now, white scars have the better cc duelist in khan and they have them as a troops choice for their basic bikers not to mention that rhino infantry/razorback all have scout which grants limited synergy options. They also can take a librarian on a bike without it looking silly

 

However the ravenwing still have their Raven pattern bikers the black Knights aka the best fa unit in any 40k marine army PERIOD, and the mights ravenwing darkshroud, and the support squadrons ravenshield, they also have sammael who is the better ranged warrior.

 

So on the hole it's now a question of "your mileage will vary" each has its own pros and cons and the ravenwing on a pros n cons list seems to have more advantages within the confines of the current brb edition but as any dark angel will tell you history is a fickle mistress and more than once we've fallen victim to a new brb ruining everything.

 

So that's my verdict, flip a coin based on your local players their surprisingly balanced and are even on the table.

[Crazy Jay]

I wonder how much mileage one might get out of an alliance of the two. I wish I had the marine codex just to put some hypothetical lists together.

[Liberame]

Raven wing army with white scars librarius on bikes

[GreyCrow]

White Scars are actually more of a shooty army than a CC army. The true value of Hit & Run (aside from being able to reposition) is to GET AWAY!!!! from combat then be able to shoot good weapons. Not only the ones of the squad that got out, but also every remaining weapon in the army. Think Mongolian Mounted Archers.

 

Ravenwing on the other hand (especially Black Knights) are good at everything. Points for points, the Black Knights are superb in every single aspect of the turn (mobility, shooting phase and combat).

[SvenONE]

In 6th ed. WS were primarily better because across the board they were cheaper. Cheaper HQ, cheaper command squad, cheaper troops. Then to pile on, they had grav guns.

 

A lot has changed now. Our bikes, while not cheaper than SM, are much cheaper and come with, if you ask me, equally good rules. We too have access to grav guns, and the ability to increase their BS to 5. We have the Ravenwing Support Squadron, which... man, so good. We also have Black Knights, to which there is no equivalent for SM. We may not have a stormtalon, but we have a flying mini-vindicator.

 

We also have a specific detachment which offers us extra rules. WS bike armies are forced to run CAD, though that does give ObSec. Also, once the FAQ comes out (based on that email from GW about the HQ issue) we too will have the ability to run any HQ.

 

As far as Sammael vs Khan, Khan's advantage really lies in his cost. But Sammael is an AWESOME HQ.

[aura_enchanted]

In 6th ed. WS were primarily better because across the board they were cheaper. Cheaper HQ, cheaper command squad, cheaper troops. Then to pile on, they had grav guns.

 

A lot has changed now. Our bikes, while not cheaper than SM, are much cheaper and come with, if you ask me, equally good rules. We too have access to grav guns, and the ability to increase their BS to 5. We have the Ravenwing Support Squadron, which... man, so good. We also have Black Knights, to which there is no equivalent for SM. We may not have a stormtalon, but we have a flying mini-vindicator.

 

We also have a specific detachment which offers us extra rules. WS bike armies are forced to run CAD, though that does give ObSec. Also, once the FAQ comes out (based on that email from GW about the HQ issue) we too will have the ability to run any HQ.

 

As far as Sammael vs Khan, Khan's advantage really lies in his cost. But Sammael is an AWESOME HQ.

I agree but khan is better if he locks up with someone than sammael is, Sammy has the inferior statline for cc but he has a plasma cannon just at that alone he's better than any hq the codex marines have except for papa smurf at shooting attacks, he can literally sweep whole chunks of squads in a single salvo and ko sarro can't do that he's only got some tl bolters like everyone else.

 

That's what I mean by ko sarro being better at cc. In reality ravenwing are superior than ws in cc if they need to but heads at the base model level because black Knights have the Corvus hammers

And there's a heck of a lot more hammers than there are ko sarro khans.

[SvenONE]

Im not sure I follow about the Khan statline or being better in CC. They have identical statlines.

 

Also Sammael has a master crafted AP2 sword while Khan has a regular power sword that causes ID on a 6, but its not AP2 if I recall so youve still got an armor save or invuln save. Theyll mow down power armor just the same. Also, one vindicator shot or force weapon and Khan is down. Sammys got EW.

 

Furious charge does make a difference, but again, AP3.

[ValourousHeart]

I know all through 6th, the common rhetoric was that White Scars were the better bike army. How do they stack up in 7th? I know one of the big ticket items that WS had over us was grav guns and we have those now. Just curious how we stand now.

I just wanted to clarify the rhetoric. WS were not better than RW in 6th or any other edition. The popular army that was themed around lots of bikes and Assault moves was perceived to have a better rules when built using C:SM.

 

So in a sense they were right, but only if you compared a fully optimized C:SM list and then tried to match that identically with C:DA. In other words, this is like trying to compare a fully optimized TAU list with a NID list built to look like that TAU list. Can you imagine a NID list that tried to do the shoot, run away, and avoid CC at all cost TAU thing.

 

On the other hand RW had a very powerful play style that capitalized on thier highly effective shooting. And a list built with that design philosphy in mind could not be duplicated by C:SM... and before you ask, I am not refering to the banner of devistation. We had options to bring a lot of fast moving high rate of fire units, in a manner that could not be matched by anyother codex. The BoD was just icing on that cake.

 

Don't misunderstand, if you tried to build a CC RW, you would quickly find that WS were better in CC than RW... but then again 4 extra wounds per unit tends to do that. The fact that they were cheaper meant that they effectively didn't pay for those extra wounds.

 

The other thing that really gets my Irish up, is that people believe that WS is a bike army. There is nothing in the WS battle plan that requires bikes... they just happen to have a special character that has the option to take a bike. But it should tell you something that his base form comes on foot. It should also tell you something that if you took what you consider to be a great WS list and replace every bike squad with marines in Rhinos or Razorbacks, the 2 lists would play almost the same.

 

The same is not true for RW vs GW.

 

The best advice I can offer is don't try to build an army optomized to another codex... you will only find disapointment on that path. Instead focus on building a list that is optimized for your chosen codex.

 

But hey I don't fault you for having thoughts like this. I remember when SW came out in 4th edition, I thought about buying a box of goblin wolf riders and gluing the wolf heads to the front of my RW bikes and running them as TWC.

[IndigoJack]

The other thing that really gets my Irish up, is that people believe that WS is a bike army.

I think that is mainly due to the chapter tactic giving out skilled rider (or the equivalent in the last codex). Since only-non vehicle units can benefit from CTs, bikes are the only units that can take full effect of the CT.

 

 

Having played both WS and RW I'll add my two cents. First, playing an all bike army is challenging. You're moving away from TAC lists, and setting yourself up for bad match-ups. In a sense, it's like playing a full terminator army. Doable, winnable even, but an up hill battle. So, as pointed out above, a lot of how a RW or WS bike army will perform also depends on your support. RW have the best speeders in the game. Simply being able to re-roll jink saves makes them a much stronger unit. DW also add a nice dimension to the army as they can provide durability and strong shooting as well.

 

WS have +1S hammer of wrath, which is really good. Skilled rider is also nice, but 4+ re-rollable beats a 3+ jink save, and dangerous terrain can either be avoided, or risked for a small (5.5%) chance of death. For support, WS have the amazing TFC, for which there is no comparable unit in the DA book. Storm talons are great against ground targets and for AA duty and are cheap to boot. We both have libby conclaves, but the C:SM version doesn't have to figure out where to put Ezekiel (not to say ours isn't good, because it's pretty awesome).

 

For HQs, we don't have to take a special character to get scout. Khan is better as a budget HQ, but since he has to be warlord to get scout, a lot of WS armies miss out on the good warlord traits. Sammy, while expensive, isn't a terrible HQ and can pass skilled rider out to a regular RW unit if you feel you need it. And as mentioned already, once our RWSF gets fixed, we'll be able to take a variety of HQs since none of our rules are tied to an HQ.

 

And then you have black knights. I'm not sure if they're the best space marine FA choice, but they're neck and neck with TWC.

 

So which do I think is better? Neither I'd say. They're pretty different (finally). I prefer RW, as the black knights build a better deathstar and can MSU harder (RW spend 250pts for a full bike squad with melta bombs, combi-grav, 2x grav guns, and a MM attack bike that can split into 3 units while WS pay 221 for a comparable unit that can ony split into 2). Sure RW don't have ObSec, but ObSec is one of those things that if you have it, it's awesome. If you don't, you know from the start that you have to play to make up for it.

 

The best way to really find out the difference between play styles is to just try them both out. As long as your opponent doesn't mind, proxy one for the other. Remember, it's the support that makes the respective bike army good, not just the bikes themselves.

[JJD]

I think another thing that may seem minor but can make a big difference is storm shields on the command squad meaning you don't need to kink so much. Now again this is compared to a re-roll jink so you take your choices.

[JJD]

It is also worth noting the top team at the ATC used a RW list with company of the great wolf. I know the synergy between the lion and the wolf has been discussed elsewhere but it does look strong.

[elphilo]

It is also worth noting the top team at the ATC used a RW list with company of the great wolf. I know the synergy between the lion and the wolf has been discussed elsewhere but it does look strong.

Most teams had some sort of RW/SW deathstar. The only one that I know of that didn't include RW was the 4th place team, which took SW/Sisters to be a counter to the RW/SW deathstar lol.

 

As to the topic in hand, its as others have said. There is a difference and it all matters on play style. IMO Ravenwing make for awesome "meat and potatoes" for Thunderstar and White Scars make for an awesome MSU Objective Secured/Outflanking force. Of course you're taking ICs on TWC in both lists, at least in my head :P. But I think you can make a decent MSU Ravenwing force, its just the lack of Objective Secured will hurt it. That and the stupid only one HQ choice you can take per RAW.

[ValourousHeart]

 

The other thing that really gets my Irish up, is that people believe that WS is a bike army.

I think that is mainly due to the chapter tactic giving out skilled rider (or the equivalent in the last codex). Since only-non vehicle units can benefit from CTs, bikes are the only units that can take full effect of the CT.

 

Well I just played a game this weekend WS vs RW.

The game was a special scenario that we were testing the rules for and making changes on the fly.

So the results won't directly translate to the standard mission from the BRB nor any of the traditional tournament missions.

 

WS getting skilled rider across the board is new to this edition.

I did not know they had that when I made my earlier comment about questioning why people think that WS was a bike army.

In the past they simply got scout on every unit, which meant that they could get outflanking Rhino/Razorbacks, not just bikes.

I think skilled rider is a nice chage to thier rules, tt encourages them to beeline for CC, which they are still very potent at.

But it nicely distingushies RW and WS into very different play styles.

 

RW are a very shooty army that is reslient to incoming fire.

From my experence, RW seemes to have better access to fast moving, high strength, high rate of fire units than the typical WS list.

 

I think that is because RW tend not to be distracted with dreadnoughts and other greenwing units, whereas the typical WS list will have a lot of "GW style" units to help support thier bikes.

[Lord Blackwood]

Im pretty sure they had skilled rider in sixth edition as well.  

It was just called born in the Saddle back then but it looks like it was the same rule? 

[Liberame]

Same effects but stacked with skilled rider

[Lord Blackwood]

Same effects but stacked with skilled rider

 

So they had like ... hyper skilled rider last edition XD 

[Liberame]

Sammael with WS command squad had 2+ jinks, was so nice

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Which is better? In sixth edition White Scars were obviously better, now I think the edge is probably towards Ravenwing. However in a pure bike list Scars will have more models for the same points allotment. It's when you look at supporting models that the difference arises as Ravenwing have more fast moving supportive models. Black Knights are... point for point... better than a biker command squad, although if you're willing to spend more points a storm shield/lightning claw armed command squad will beat a Black Knight squad in melee, and Marines can fill their elite slots with them.

[Liberame]

A strong RW force won't have full bikers. They'll take advantage of their speeders, mainly support squadrons. It really does depend on what you want your list to do

[elphilo]

It really depends what you're trying to do IMO. 

[Garath]

   Hi everyone , long time no see.   I have written a Biker tactica for 6th/7th ed a while ago that was really popular on these boards.  That was some time ago and the meta has changed since then.  I'm not trying to patronise or anything - but I have built a couple of really succesful bike armies for several of my friends over the years - since 3rd ed infact. 

 

  What follows is only my oppinion.  It will be a book,... so if you guys don't feel like reading a lot of text - skip it and don't hold it against me.

 

   Which is better ,White Scars or Ravenwing ?

 

  Ravenwing

 

   White scars have strong bikes , stronger then ravenwing , point per point. That includes the Black knights. (I'll get to that later) . WS have skilled rider and How with S5,plus hit and run. And scout.  They are better then Rw bikes in close assault  - and cc is where they win most their games. Ravenwing shoots just as well as WS, but white scars have that cc option - and that is something they capitalize on. 

 

   Black Knights and why avoid them

 

  BK are not a fluffy idea. No.  They have never been a part of the DA fluff- and have only been added recently in the 6th ed codex and the Novels preceding it. They are an expasive unit that is bad at it's job and should be avoided at all costs.  I'm talking competitive here - with fluff out of the window for a sec.

  If you re playing a bike army, you need to have as many bikes on the ground as possible.  That means having lots of cheap(ish) models instead of a few that are expensive point per point.   With that in mind- if you want to have a cc unit - you can take almost twice as many WS bikers instead of BK.  Let's compare them

    

  Black knights vs White Scars .  Here's my pov on the matter. You can field a single BK or 2 WS for the same points. 2 WS have more attacks and more wounds then a single BK does.  They also have 2 HoW attacks with S5.  Only thing BK has going for him is his S5 rending in cc and his plasma talon.  S 5 is great - but WS compensate that with volume of dice (the sheer number of attacks).  Plasma talon is an interesting weapon that we would perhaps love having on regular bikes.  The problems arise when you multiply it's effects.

 

    It has great S, short range and overheats.  If you double tap with it, 2 negative side effects come into play.  First , firing 10 overheating shots (form a unit of 5 BKs) could lead to BK killing themselves with their own weapons. Second, you could get yourself  **** and fail the charge after you shoot.  Talons are only good against smal elite targets where you WILL get the charge off (since you will not kill enough models to be left out of charge range) or MCs .

 

   BK have no crowd control options whatsoever, and if they have to charge a large unit they will die since they lack any kind of special save in cc.  

 

Let me recap whar I've written so far about BK and Plasma talons:

- BK cost twice as much as a WS does

- less attacks per point

- talons might overheat

-talons might leave you out of range

- BK have no crowd control wepons

 

 

   White scars on the other hand ignore most , if not all of the above problems. They can pack plasma (but why would you?) , flamers ,meltas or grav guns . Meaning , if you want to shoot elite units - 2 gravguns and a combi grav.  That's 9 shots form 3 bikes (if you take min units -aka MSU) !  Compare that to BK. 5 BK cost more then 2 units of 3 ws with 3 grav each.

 

5 BK in rapid fire will fire 10 talon shots

6 WS will fire 18 Grav shots

 

  After you have spent the combi grav, 2 WS units have only 12 shots - but they still outshoot BK. Yes, they also have bolters - if you are facing orks,bugs or guard. 

 

WS have better crowd control then BK. You have twice as many models for the same price, and you can take a combi flamer here and there if you really need to. You are only going to fire that thing once - like any other flamer in most cases. The sexiest way to do it is after a hit and run.  H&R, then advance to a bunched up unit ,flame - charge!

 

BK do have one thing going for them , and share it with thier RW brethern - they re-roll jink. That is cool, and they will save a majority of the wounds coming their way.  Ther bs is crappy when they do jink, and that halves their effectivness.  And we are talking about a 40+ point per model unit.   

 

  To conclude this part of the text - There is only one reason  to take BK over normal WS bikes - re-roll on jink.

 

However, what about RW bikes?

 

  They also re-roll jink. That and 3 specific situations you should aim to create on the field if what makes RW better then WS.  RW does NOT play the same game that WS do.  RW aims to synergise between bikes, attack bikes and land speeders. 

 

It all boils down to ...Darkshroud

 

  Yes, GW did it again.  Last edition it was about having lots of bikes with the banner of devastation- this one it's about land speeders .

 

  Ravenwing support squadron

 

  Darkshroud and 1-5 land speeders for a single unit. What escapes the eye is the combo of special rules involved.   DS gives UNITS (important note) within 6" of it fear and stealth.  DS itslef doesn't have stealth, but has shrouded.  

  Now , since (by the big book) if one model within a unit has shrouded - the whole unit gets it....we come to an interesting OP situation here. 

 

  Support squadron has Shrouded and Stealth (from now on SnS) at the same time. Meaning, when they don't jink - they save on 4+.  When they DO jink they have 4+ jink + 3 from SnS ...for a 2 + jink ...with a re-roll. 

 

  Yeah...take 2 of them and just murder people with it. 

 

   Oh yeah, on top of that - Strafing run for Bs 5 ! aginst ground targets.  Also interceptor and you get to fire overwatch against enemies that charge your RW squads that are within 24". 

 

 To recap:

-2+ jink with re-roll

- 4+ cover if not jinking

- strafing run

- overwatch people within 24" 

 

  Ravenwing attack squadron

 

  A unit of bikes or attack bikes, and a land speeder or vengence.  First of , they get scout. Second , they bring in deathwing within 12" with no scatter (not important at this point) . 

  If the Speeder hits a target, then all the (attack)bikes in the formation add +1 to their BS.  

 

  They synergise with each other,and with the Darkshroud alone, plus the Support squadron itself.

 

  Tricks with RAS+Darkshroud:

- keep a single biker from the unit within 6" of darkshroud  to get stealth for the whole unit. When bikes jink they get a 3+ jink with re roll.

- If you want to charge , keep a bike within 6" of darkshroud prior to charge - you will have fear USR , and the enemy cannot fire overwatch

-  Land speeder from the RAS can have 3+ jink with re-roll too (stealth within 6") , and you should always jink with it. It only needs to score a single hit to give his bikes +1Bs. With say, 2 heavy bolters- that chance is considerable and the LS is cheap. 

 

 (i promise this is the last part)

 

  The grand plan

 

  To top it all off , we have the Ravenwing attachment.  In it, if you turbo first turn (that's after scouting midn you), your army counts as jinking as soon as you turbo you get all those juicy re-rollable cover saves and can fire normally in the next turn. Additionally, if the enemy thinks about charging your units, you will first overwatch with the unit charged- with BS 2 (from grim resolve) AND the support squadron...

 

I'd say that beats White scars any day.  Even tho their bikes are better then ours by themselves - once you factor in formations, detachments etc - Rawenwing is a stronger army 

[elphilo]

You're forgetting one HUGE component of the WS biker. Its Objective Secured. While it might not matter in a regular game of 40k, that's huge in tournament games with progressive scoring/maelstrom objectives. 

 

Everything else I agree on. Our support squadrons make the Ravenwing "work." But until they get Objective Secured a WS biker army is probably better in a tournament setting.

[Liberame]

Don't WS bikers have 1 attack base, while black knights have 2 plus 2 ccw (so 3 without charge bonus) Also the plasma talons are twin linked, the grav guns are not. i do not agree with your analysis on comparing the 2.

[Lord Blackwood]

Im fairly certain if you have a gets hot weapon you cant get hot on the re roll  only the inital roll.