Ravenwing vs White Scars

[AngelVeto]

Don't have the actual page number atm but since 6th ed the twin linked and gets hot rules have been that any weapon that has the gets hot re-roll may re roll the failed roll and that result MUST ALSO be a one

(Emphasis mine)

 

Which means a black knight has a 1/36 chance of getting hot, as the initial roll of one gets re rolled and must also be a one to suffer a wound. If your first roll is a 2, your next die could be a one but it doesn't constitute the parameters set forth by having both gets hot and twin linked

[Garath]

You're forgetting one HUGE component of the WS biker. Its Objective Secured. While it might not matter in a regular game of 40k, that's huge in tournament games with progressive scoring/maelstrom objectives. 

 

Everything else I agree on. Our support squadrons make the Ravenwing "work." But until they get Objective Secured a WS biker army is probably better in a tournament setting.

 

Yes, WS do have OS - unlike RW.   I didn't factor that in. What do you mean by "progressive scorng/maelstrom objectives ?   Isn't it so ,that any unit can score if there are no enemies on the objectives ?  

  What I mean is, if you destroy the enemy guarding an objective - you can still score it ,right?   Or do these formats favour OS units in some other way? 

[IndigoJack]

While I agree with your conclusion Garath, necessarily agree with how you got there. If you're reading my response, keep in mind this is from a competitive point of view. With that disclaimer out of the way, I'll deconstruct the post.

 

Ravenwing

 

   White scars have strong bikes , stronger then ravenwing , point per point. That includes the Black knights. (I'll get to that later) . WS have skilled rider and How with S5,plus hit and run. And scout.  They are better then Rw bikes in close assault  - and cc is where they win most their games. Ravenwing shoots just as well as WS, but white scars have that cc option - and that is something they capitalize on.

First, WS don't have scout. Khan can give them scout, but only if he's the warlord. He's a mediocre HQ, and if it wasn't for him granting scout, I doubt you would see him at all. His only other real advantage is that he's a budget HQ at 125 pts, or 150 with a bike. Most WS bike armies are also going to include a chapter master for tanking, so there's a significant point investment already just to get to a decent list. For ravenwing, we just take an HQ (and if your playing ITC rejoice! for they've allowed other characters on bikes to gain the RW special rule) and go to town. That can be as cheep as a 110 librarian on a bike, or as expensive as the Master of the Ravenwing himself.

 

Next, I don't think skilled rider has as much importance as your placing on it. The 3+ jink is nice, but statistically the 4+ re-roll is better and has a lower standard deviation, meaning you have a better chance at rolling average. And while auto-passing dangerous terrain tests is nice, that can be mitigated some by movement. There will always be times you have to risk it, but the 5.5% chance of dying is generally worth it. Just play smart, and only go through DT if you have to.

 

The S5 HoW is nice, but the trade of for us is BS2 overwatch. So while they may be more offensive, our defensive buffs are (IMO) just as good. And while stubborn is generally thought to be a waste on marines, when you have H&R it becomes a bonus because have a lot more control over when you leave combat. IMO, RW have a lot more control over combat than WS.

 

 

Black Knights and why avoid them

 

  BK are not a fluffy idea. No.  They have never been a part of the DA fluff- and have only been added recently in the 6th ed codex and the Novels preceding it. They are an expasive unit that is bad at it's job and should be avoided at all costs.  I'm talking competitive here - with fluff out of the window for a sec.

  If you re playing a bike army, you need to have as many bikes on the ground as possible.  That means having lots of cheap(ish) models instead of a few that are expensive point per point.   With that in mind- if you want to have a cc unit - you can take almost twice as many WS bikers instead of BK.

It's not just about model count. Unit count plays in as well. Let's compare two full RW and WS units real quick (I'll omit upgrades since we pay point cost for them).

 

RW - 5 bikes, 1 sgt, attack bike: 195pts

 

WS - 7 bies, 1 sgt, attack bike: 205

 

The reason I'm comparing full squads due to the second most important rule space marines have access to; combat squads. the ability to split a unit up depending on the mission is very powerful in the right hands. So factoring in combat squads, RW can get 2x3 bike squads and an attack bike for 195 points, while WS get 5 bikes and a squad of 3 bike with attack bike. So while WS get more models per unit, we get more units per point. Now realistically, you never see WS combat squad in competitive lists. I imagine the reason is so someone can shove as many grav guns in a list as possible, which certainly has its merits. While the grav bikes are certainly nice, I find mine jinking often enough (especially early game) that I don't see meaningful returns on them unless I'm running a RWSF.

    

Let's compare them

 

  Black knights vs White Scars .  Here's my pov on the matter. You can field a single BK or 2 WS for the same points. 2 WS have more attacks and more wounds then a single BK does.  They also have 2 HoW attacks with S5.  Only thing BK has going for him is his S5 rending in cc and his plasma talon.  S 5 is great - but WS compensate that with volume of dice (the sheer number of attacks).  Plasma talon is an interesting weapon that we would perhaps love having on regular bikes.  The problems arise when you multiply it's effects.

 

    It has great S, short range and overheats.  If you double tap with it, 2 negative side effects come into play.  First , firing 10 overheating shots (form a unit of 5 BKs) could lead to BK killing themselves with their own weapons. Second, you could get yourself  **** and fail the charge after you shoot.  Talons are only good against smal elite targets where you WILL get the charge off (since you will not kill enough models to be left out of charge range) or MCs .

For a TL gun to overheat, both the first roll and the second roll have to be a one. You then have to fail an armor save to die. It's very unlikely that talons will kill you.

 

BK have no crowd control options whatsoever, and if they have to charge a large unit they will die since they lack any kind of special save in cc.

 

 

Let me recap whar I've written so far about BK and Plasma talons:

- BK cost twice as much as a WS does

- less attacks per point

- talons might overheat

-talons might leave you out of range

- BK have no crowd control wepons

BK are a crowd control unit. Multi-assaults are invaluable to good board control. Unless your opponent also has H&R, they're stuck in combat with you. That means they can't move, shoot, or assualt another target. You can very easily gum up someones backfield with a good multi-assault with BKs. Also, with 3 S5 rending attacks apiece, they're still going to do some hurt. As far as the lack of special save goes, keep in mind your playing a bike army. Bikes are fast, and if your better in the movement phase than your opponent, your assaults will happen on your terms. Use proper risk assessment when engaging and they'll be fine.

 

 

White scars on the other hand ignore most , if not all of the above problems. They can pack plasma (but why would you?) , flamers ,meltas or grav guns . Meaning , if you want to shoot elite units - 2 gravguns and a combi grav.  That's 9 shots form 3 bikes (if you take min units -aka MSU) !  Compare that to BK. 5 BK cost more then 2 units of 3 ws with 3 grav each.

 

5 BK in rapid fire will fire 10 talon shots

6 WS will fire 18 Grav shots

 

  After you have spent the combi grav, 2 WS units have only 12 shots - but they still outshoot BK. Yes, they also have bolters - if you are facing orks,bugs or guard. 

 

WS have better crowd control then BK. You have twice as many models for the same price, and you can take a combi flamer here and there if you really need to. You are only going to fire that thing once - like any other flamer in most cases. The sexiest way to do it is after a hit and run.  H&R, then advance to a bunched up unit ,flame - charge!

 

BK do have one thing going for them , and share it with thier RW brethern - they re-roll jink. That is cool, and they will save a majority of the wounds coming their way.  Ther bs is crappy when they do jink, and that halves their effectivness.  And we are talking about a 40+ point per model unit.   

 

  To conclude this part of the text - There is only one reason  to take BK over normal WS bikes - re-roll on jink.

I think your problem is that your assessing BK as a shooting unit, rather than an assault unit that has decent shooting. I rarely fire my talons. Their nice to have, but the mass rending attacks that they put out makes them amazing. And if you can shoot, the RWGL can knock WS and I of your opponent down, meaning you often hit first and more often. These guys seriously chew through units in CC, something that no WS bike unit outside of a chapter master can really say.

 

However, what about RW bikes?

 

  They also re-roll jink. That and 3 specific situations you should aim to create on the field if what makes RW better then WS.  RW does NOT play the same game that WS do.  RW aims to synergise between bikes, attack bikes and land speeders. 

 

It all boils down to ...Darkshroud

 

  Yes, GW did it again.  Last edition it was about having lots of bikes with the banner of devastation- this one it's about land speeders .

 

  Ravenwing support squadron

 

  Darkshroud and 1-5 land speeders for a single unit. What escapes the eye is the combo of special rules involved.   DS gives UNITS (important note) within 6" of it fear and stealth.  DS itslef doesn't have stealth, but has shrouded.  

  Now , since (by the big book) if one model within a unit has shrouded - the whole unit gets it....we come to an interesting OP situation here. 

 

  Support squadron has Shrouded and Stealth (from now on SnS) at the same time. Meaning, when they don't jink - they save on 4+.  When they DO jink they have 4+ jink + 3 from SnS ...for a 2 + jink ...with a re-roll. 

 

  Yeah...take 2 of them and just murder people with it. 

 

   Oh yeah, on top of that - Strafing run for Bs 5 ! aginst ground targets.  Also interceptor and you get to fire overwatch against enemies that charge your RW squads that are within 24". 

 

 To recap:

-2+ jink with re-roll

- 4+ cover if not jinking

- strafing run

- overwatch people within 24"

I pretty much agree with all of this. Support squadron is ridiculously good. I was on the fence about it at first, since I knew my opponents would shoot it as often as possible to make it jink, but the interceptor and the ravenshield rule are both so so so good. Definitely (probably?) the best formation in the book.

 

Ravenwing attack squadron

 

  A unit of bikes or attack bikes, and a land speeder or vengence.  First of , they get scout. Second , they bring in deathwing within 12" with no scatter (not important at this point) . 

  If the Speeder hits a target, then all the (attack)bikes in the formation add +1 to their BS.  

 

  They synergise with each other,and with the Darkshroud alone, plus the Support squadron itself.

 

  Tricks with RAS+Darkshroud:

- keep a single biker from the unit within 6" of darkshroud  to get stealth for the whole unit. When bikes jink they get a 3+ jink with re roll.

- If you want to charge , keep a bike within 6" of darkshroud prior to charge - you will have fear USR , and the enemy cannot fire overwatch

-  Land speeder from the RAS can have 3+ jink with re-roll too (stealth within 6") , and you should always jink with it. It only needs to score a single hit to give his bikes +1Bs. With say, 2 heavy bolters- that chance is considerable and the LS is cheap.

Remember what I said about the support squadron and jinking? This is the truth about the attack squadron. The reality (or at least my experience of it) is that this unit is going to spend too much time jinking to take advantage of the +1 BS. The only thing I really like about this formation is the 12" teleport homer on all units (including the speeder) for bringing in DW. So for doublewing, this formation is really nice. for pure RW, not so much.

 

 

(i promise this is the last part)

 

  The grand plan

 

  To top it all off , we have the Ravenwing attachment.  In it, if you turbo first turn (that's after scouting midn you), your army counts as jinking as soon as you turbo you get all those juicy re-rollable cover saves and can fire normally in the next turn. Additionally, if the enemy thinks about charging your units, you will first overwatch with the unit charged- with BS 2 (from grim resolve) AND the support squadron...

 

I'd say that beats White scars any day.  Even tho their bikes are better then ours by themselves - once you factor in formations, detachments etc - Rawenwing is a stronger army

Like I said on the onset, I agree with your conclusion, just not with everything you said to get there. Everything I said of course is just my opinion based on my experience playing both WS and the new RW. IMO, pure WS bike armies are not top tier competitive. Like RW, they need support whether it be from sicarans, storm talons, TFCs, etc. RW do have better support options though (except the TFC, that guy is boss), and that's what makes RW a strong choice.

 

 

You're forgetting one HUGE component of the WS biker. Its Objective Secured. While it might not matter in a regular game of 40k, that's huge in tournament games with progressive scoring/maelstrom objectives. 

 

Everything else I agree on. Our support squadrons make the Ravenwing "work." But until they get Objective Secured a WS biker army is probably better in a tournament setting.

I don't think not having ObSec is as big a deal as some people make it. I also think having ObSec is a bigger deal than some people make it. While this may seem contradictory, I'll explain. If you have an army with lots of ObSec, you play the mission with that in mind. My Drop Pod Purifier Scout army did really well because my scouts annoyingly stole objectives. That said, if you don't have ObSec, you play the mission with that in mind. You know you may have to kill a unit to take an objective. Playing an army with little to no ObSec requires a bit more planning and a good knowledge of battlefield tactics but I don't believe the lack of it on RW makes WS a better bike army.

[Garath]

    I like your ideas IndigoJack , and would like to discuss some of them in greater detail. To be honest here- I'mhaving trouble with multi qotes - don't know how to do it on this board. So I'll just brake my text into paragraphs of what we've talked about.

 

WS scout via Khan.  I honsetly didn't consider them even viable without scout. That's their thing.  Without scout , WS have a really hard time with any form of a Tau army, and Eldar for example (but the Eldar are another story - the strongest codex in history of 40k .  I would maybe compare them powerwise with Iron warriors in 4th ed or Eldar strike force backthen.)

 

   So I took scour for WS for granted.  Khan is mediocre , but he is also cheapish  for what he gives them.

 

 

  WS vs RW (combat squads advantage)

 

   Combat squads could be  a poweful tool. The question here isn't if the option is there- or if you can use it - the question is does it pay off?  

  What I mean by that , if you are playing scenarios with objectives only - combat squads are great. If you are , however , playing a scenario wth both objectivs and kill points as secondaries (such as the ETC ones) then combat squads are a bad ,bad idea.

   If you are using both maelstrom cards, kill points and objectives,  then by emperor - stay away from combat squads .

 

   I'm guessing that might be a reason why WS lists go for grav spam.   To put that into RW perspective :

 

  We could  have  a single unit of 6 bikes for 150 pts with 2 gravs + combigrav for 40

   And split them into 2 units of 3....

 

  Or two units : 3 bikes with 2G&CG 

                        3 bikes with 2G&CG

     For only 40 pts more

 

  If having large bike units gives any advantage now is a good question. Ravenwing attachment has 12 slots for fast attack - if we wanna do MSU- we can do it. 

 

  Hidden gem of the RW is the attack bike in the RW bike squad. 

What is new about it is that if taken - the AB doesn't detach from the unit like before .It stays in. That is a BIG deal.

  There is no reason to add any bikes to a min unit before we add an attack bike.  Think about it, 2 bikes cost us 5 pts more then an attack bike. Two bikes have 2 wounds and 2 twin linked bolters. An AB has also 2 wounds ,has a bolter and a heavy bolter.  For 5 pts less then 2 bikes we get a heavy bolter in there . 

 

  

 

  And the AT capabilities of the RAS are insane! 

 

3 bikes , 2 meltas,combi melta, AB with multi melta. Land speeder with an Assault cannon and heavy bolter.  If the LS hits(and it will) - Bikes hit the target on a 2+ with meltas !!! 

 

 Black knights shooting and crowd control

 

  Why i was looking at them as a shooting unit. 40k is a game of movement and shooting- and assault . If a unit can shoot it should use that option as often as possible.  By not doing so, we are paying points for things we are not using. 

 

  That unit can shoot- and I've seen them overheat at the worst time imaginable ! I know the chance is low- but by Murphy's law - it will happen exsactly when we hopethat  it will not  happen. 

 

Let's talk about crow control.  By crowd control- I mean stuff like a unit of 30 ork boyz. Orks are my other army and they are pretty tough to take down.  Crowd control means talking down most of the unit in one turn.  BK cannot do that.   WS (if you give them flamers ) can. Ravewing can also do that with 2 flamer + combi flamer.  Tying up stuff and multi assaulting is all fine , but it's better to take the target down.  

 

  BK have ony one target they are better against then any other unit.  MCs.  Oh yeah ! First the talons, the grenade that lowers targets initiative (!) then all those rendng attacks.  Guess Wraithknighs don't look as scary anymore.  

 

  Against everything else - they are a waste. as other units do their job better for less points. Examples would  be (as above) larger units delth with flamers.  Things with a 2 up save are killed by grav - and vehicles are killed by melta.

 

 

[elphilo]

 

You're forgetting one HUGE component of the WS biker. Its Objective Secured. While it might not matter in a regular game of 40k, that's huge in tournament games with progressive scoring/maelstrom objectives. 

 

Everything else I agree on. Our support squadrons make the Ravenwing "work." But until they get Objective Secured a WS biker army is probably better in a tournament setting.

 

Yes, WS do have OS - unlike RW.   I didn't factor that in. What do you mean by "progressive scorng/maelstrom objectives ?   Isn't it so ,that any unit can score if there are no enemies on the objectives ?  

  What I mean is, if you destroy the enemy guarding an objective - you can still score it ,right?   Or do these formats favour OS units in some other way? 

 

Progressive Scoring is a term used on the East Coast of the USA as another word like maelstrom. Basically the NOVA Open missions lets you pick two ways to play the mission. A turn by turn scoring (progressive) or end game. Objective Secured really helps in these missions because if your opponent picks turn by turn and you pick end game you can still deny your opponent points by placing Objective Secured units on the objective. Denying him his points. 

 

 

 You're forgetting one HUGE component of the WS biker. Its Objective Secured. While it might not matter in a regular game of 40k, that's huge in tournament games with progressive scoring/maelstrom objectives. 

 

Everything else I agree on. Our support squadrons make the Ravenwing "work." But until they get Objective Secured a WS biker army is probably better in a tournament setting.

I don't think not having ObSec is as big a deal as some people make it. I also think having ObSec is a bigger deal than some people make it. While this may seem contradictory, I'll explain. If you have an army with lots of ObSec, you play the mission with that in mind. My Drop Pod Purifier Scout army did really well because my scouts annoyingly stole objectives. That said, if you don't have ObSec, you play the mission with that in mind. You know you may have to kill a unit to take an objective. Playing an army with little to no ObSec requires a bit more planning and a good knowledge of battlefield tactics but I don't believe the lack of it on RW makes WS a better bike army.

 

 

When we're trying to compare WS vs RW to not even mention Objective Secured is a bit disingenuous don't you think? When Objective Secured first came out in that Tyranid Formation in 6th edition I thought it was broken. Like extremely broken. But after awhile I realized it wasn't as bad as I thought it was and went on with my life. But then Demi-Company/Battle-Company formations came out and I realize how right I was. You're going to run into one of these eventually in a GT. And while yes you can kill the squad and claim your objective, you have to kill the entire squad to claim that objective. And you're probably sitting there and saying "well elphilo, even if you have OS you still don't claim the objective until you kill the entire squad as well!" Which I'll say is you're right. But you can still deny it to your opponent. And being able to interact with the game/mission/whatever is a HUGE advantage. 

 

Though I will admit that this is all probably skewed because of the NOVA missions I'm constantly playing. I haven't played an ITC mission since last October for BFS. So you might be right in ITC format you don't much care. But in NOVA format it's a thing. It's a BIG thing. 

[Liberame]

You're trying to compare BK to regular WS bikers against a mob of Work boys? That's not even a fair comparison. Because why would you charge a mob of boys with BK. It would make as much sense to charge them with a WS grav command squad. (You can't say a flamer command squad would do better, because in competitive scenes they don't exist).

[Crazy Jay]

Im fairly certain if you have a gets hot weapon you cant get hot on the re roll only the inital roll.

Correct, a weapon only gets hot if both the initial roll AND the re roll is a 1

[WellSpokenMan]

Don't WS bikers have 1 attack base, while black knights have 2 plus 2 ccw (so 3 without charge bonus) Also the plasma talons are twin linked, the grav guns are not. i do not agree with your analysis on comparing the 2.

It's also worth noting that those 4 BK attacks on the charge are S5 Rending, versus 2 S4 attacks for the WS.  Grim Resolve also needs to be factored in.  Preemptively charging WS is a viable tactic.  It's dangerous against BK as TL BS2 still hits around 50% of the time.

 

Grav-guns are situationally superior to Plasma Talons.  Better range and better against Heavy Infantry and Heavy Armor.  However, there are situations, like close range against Orcs, Guard, or even Eldar, where the Talons are better.  The Talons are also usually better against AV12 and below.

 

I don't understand how someone can claim that WS are flat out better at CC.  

[IndigoJack]

I like your ideas IndigoJack , and would like to discuss some of them in greater detail. To be honest here- I'mhaving trouble with multi qotes - don't know how to do it on this board. So I'll just brake my text into paragraphs of what we've talked about.

Thanks! I'm enjoying this discussion, and I think you're bringing up some great points. For multi-quotes, I go into BBCode Mode and type out the quote flag around the parts I want to discuss.

 

WS scout via Khan.  I honsetly didn't consider them even viable without scout. That's their thing.  Without scout , WS have a really hard time with any form of a Tau army, and Eldar for example (but the Eldar are another story - the strongest codex in history of 40k .  I would maybe compare them powerwise with Iron warriors in 4th ed or Eldar strike force backthen.)

 

   So I took scour for WS for granted.  Khan is mediocre , but he is also cheapish  for what he gives them.

I agree with this. Khan is a good force multiplier for WS, but he is a "tax."

 

 

WS vs RW (combat squads advantage)

 

   Combat squads could be  a poweful tool. The question here isn't if the option is there- or if you can use it - the question is does it pay off?  

  What I mean by that , if you are playing scenarios with objectives only - combat squads are great. If you are , however , playing a scenario wth both objectivs and kill points as secondaries (such as the ETC ones) then combat squads are a bad ,bad idea.

   If you are using both maelstrom cards, kill points and objectives,  then by emperor - stay away from combat squads .

In my experience, combat squads always pays off. The decision to combat squad should always be based on the mission. But since most tournaments allow you to see missions before hand, it can be something factored into list building. To be honest, my combat squading RW bikes is a hold over from a previous incarnation of my list where I had to use the few fast slots available in a CAD. It's worked really well for me so far though, as 3 bikes or an attack bike is fairly easy to hide. And being able to outflank my opponent with MSU has really worked well for me. Combat squads are a personal taste thing, and I can understand why someone wouldn't.

 

 I'm guessing that might be a reason why WS lists go for grav spam.   To put that into RW perspective :

 

  We could  have  a single unit of 6 bikes for 150 pts with 2 gravs + combigrav for 40

   And split them into 2 units of 3....

 

  Or two units : 3 bikes with 2G&CG 

                        3 bikes with 2G&CG

     For only 40 pts more

 

  If having large bike units gives any advantage now is a good question. Ravenwing attachment has 12 slots for fast attack - if we wanna do MSU- we can do it. 

 

  Hidden gem of the RW is the attack bike in the RW bike squad. 

What is new about it is that if taken - the AB doesn't detach from the unit like before .It stays in. That is a BIG deal.

  There is no reason to add any bikes to a min unit before we add an attack bike.  Think about it, 2 bikes cost us 5 pts more then an attack bike. Two bikes have 2 wounds and 2 twin linked bolters. An AB has also 2 wounds ,has a bolter and a heavy bolter.  For 5 pts less then 2 bikes we get a heavy bolter in there .

I agree with this. When I first started playing WS, I was only running 5man bikes. Then I realized the attack bike is also counted for the requirement of 5 bikes to FOC swap (this was from the previous codex), so I started running 4 bikes and an attack bike. This was a vast improvement in both durability and shooting. If I can find a way, I might mess with my list to get 3 bikes + attack bike but I feel like I would lose the MSU element that makes my list so powerful right now.

 

  

And the AT capabilities of the RAS are insane! 

 

3 bikes , 2 meltas,combi melta, AB with multi melta. Land speeder with an Assault cannon and heavy bolter.  If the LS hits(and it will) - Bikes hit the target on a 2+ with meltas !!!

In theory, this is great. Like I said before, in practice, this squad will jink a lot, especially early game when your opponent has enough shooting to keep your units jinking. The only time I felt this was worthwhile (other than the increased teleport homer range) was when it outflanked. Even then, both the speeder and the bike squad had to be on the board at the same time. I can see the merit of this formation, but in my experience it wasn't great unless I was also running deathwing.

 

 

Black knights shooting and crowd control

 

  Why i was looking at them as a shooting unit. 40k is a game of movement and shooting- and assault . If a unit can shoot it should use that option as often as possible.  By not doing so, we are paying points for things we are not using.

 

  That unit can shoot- and I've seen them overheat at the worst time imaginable ! I know the chance is low- but by Murphy's law - it will happen exsactly when we hopethat  it will not  happen.

The same can be said of assault. If a unit has the potential to be a good assault unit, it should be doing so often. Assault has another advantage over shooting; multi-assault. I can hit multiple units with one assault unit. The plasma talons are nice and they have a purpose, but I think they're second fiddle to the corvus hammer. 

 

Even when I can shoot, I often avoid it. I want my BKs (or most units for that matter) in combat hiding. firing the plasma talons both increase my chance of failing the charge and the chance of wiping the unit prematurely. This is another advantage to multi-assault. I can assault a unit with good leadership control to keep myself in combat while the rest f the units I assaulted fall back. The multi-assault is one of the best tools on 40k, and not something that should be overlooked. A good RW deathstar army is going to be a hard counter to a lot of shooting armies. It has the durability to survive most shooting and can easily chew through multiple targets a turn. If you're running it through a RWCS (and you should), you can also get the RW banner for auto-pass H&R and 4d6 H&R range. That's a median value of 14", and combining that with your movement next phase means you can easily sling shot around the board.

 

Let's talk about crow control.  By crowd control- I mean stuff like a unit of 30 ork boyz. Orks are my other army and they are pretty tough to take down.  Crowd control means talking down most of the unit in one turn.  BK cannot do that.   WS (if you give them flamers ) can. Ravewing can also do that with 2 flamer + combi flamer.  Tying up stuff and multi assaulting is all fine , but it's better to take the target down.  

 

  BK have ony one target they are better against then any other unit.  MCs.  Oh yeah ! First the talons, the grenade that lowers targets initiative (!) then all those rendng attacks.  Guess Wraithknighs don't look as scary anymore.  

 

  Against everything else - they are a waste. as other units do their job better for less points. Examples would  be (as above) larger units delth with flamers.  Things with a 2 up save are killed by grav - and vehicles are killed by melta.

I haven't had a chance to play against orks yet with this army. Our local ork player started playing necrons last week, so I haven't had a chance to play against them. Theoryhammer, I don't feel like anything short of greentide will be an issue. the BKs have the RWGL with frag shells on top of the plasma talons, and assaulting orks first means that the average boy is only wounding you on a 6. As long as you can find a way to mitigate the klaw (tanking IC, psychic shenanigans, etc.), BKs should be fine.

 

 

When we're trying to compare WS vs RW to not even mention Objective Secured is a bit disingenuous don't you think? When Objective Secured first came out in that Tyranid Formation in 6th edition I thought it was broken. Like extremely broken. But after awhile I realized it wasn't as bad as I thought it was and went on with my life. But then Demi-Company/Battle-Company formations came out and I realize how right I was. You're going to run into one of these eventually in a GT. And while yes you can kill the squad and claim your objective, you have to kill the entire squad to claim that objective. And you're probably sitting there and saying "well elphilo, even if you have OS you still don't claim the objective until you kill the entire squad as well!" Which I'll say is you're right. But you can still deny it to your opponent. And being able to interact with the game/mission/whatever is a HUGE advantage. 

 

Though I will admit that this is all probably skewed because of the NOVA missions I'm constantly playing. I haven't played an ITC mission since last October for BFS. So you might be right in ITC format you don't much care. But in NOVA format it's a thing. It's a BIG thing.

I do believe that ObSec should be factored in to a comparison, I just don't think it makes WS better. I haven't played NOVA format, so I really can't make a comparison. I do play ITC, and the one game I've had against battle-company wasn't that great. To sum it up, if you go second and can de-mech them early, multi-assaults will force a lot of them to fall back. The problem with having so many units in the BC, is that you're an easy target for multi-assault (unless they're using a lot of drop pods, I haven't played against that one though). While my opponent had an early lead, I pulled ahead mid-game as his units were devastated by my BKStar. I didn't have to kill them, just make them fall back. Now this is only from one game so it may not actually be indicative on how a game against a BC would normally play out, but I feel pretty confident we have to tools to handle them.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Remember that White Scars (and all other Space Marine bike armies) now get troops bikes at any squad size so long as they have a bike riding character.

 

A shooty White Scars squad would be (just like Ravenwing) three bikes, two grav, combi-grav, and a multi-melta attack bike. That would cost 153 points. Unlike any other Marine troop choice there are no points wasted on guys armed only with bolters. At five wounds, and four models, they're as durable as they need to be (which isn't much). Ravenwing pay 170 points for the same configuration. At the moment the cheapest HQ to unlock troops Ravenwing is 200, while Marines can get by with a Librarian on bike for 85 although obviously that'll change if/when they FAQ that Dark Angels characters on bikes get the Ravenwing rule.

 

At the moment a bare bones Space Marine bike army is 391 points, and Ravenwing 540. If he wants the scout rule the Marine will have to play White Scars, and buy Kor'Sarro for an additional 65 points. 456 versus 540. Sammael is clearly better than Kor'Sarro but I think the 10% saving on each squad taken will add up over time. At 2000 points a White Scars player has six troop slots filled, two beater biker command squads, Kor'Sarro and a level 2 Librarian on bike, and about 322 points left to spend on support.

[aekold]

I think that ravenwing are in no way worse then white scars. They are different armies who each has its advantages.

 

White scars are cheaper, have access to better HQs. Either a cheap HQ like a techmarine on a bike or a CC beast like a chapter master. They have objective secures. They have better long range support, like thunderfire cannons.

 

Ravenwing have built in scout, the ravenwing rule which goes a long way in keeping your bikers/speeders alive, We have the best speeders in the game. The dark shroud is awesome. Black knights are point for point better than a biker command squad if you want them to serve the same purpose(both shooting and CC). The ravenwing detachment in ridiculously powerful.

 

When a FAQ will be released which will allow other HQ choices into the ravenwing strike force it will only get better.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Synergy wise, It's RW hands down. WS may get more models in the ground, but the way RW interacts with rules/models like darkshroud, ravenshield, re-rollable jink and etc, gives them the tools to be a better army, IMHO.

[Garath]

Indigo jack wrote:

"I haven't had a chance to play against orks yet with this army. Our local ork player started playing necrons last week, so I haven't had a chance to play against them. Theoryhammer, I don't feel like anything short of greentide will be an issue. the BKs have the RWGL with frag shells on top of the plasma talons, and assaulting orks first means that the average boy is only wounding you on a 6. As long as you can find a way to mitigate the klaw (tanking IC, psychic shenanigans, etc.), BKs should be fine."
 

 

   I love playing orks - and my favorite "anvil" unit is a mob of 30 'Ard boyz  with a Nob with  Power Klaw, Bosspole - joined by Mad Dok Grotsnik

 

  That's everything an ork army needs as an anvil unit . They have 2 A on the profle + extra cc weapon, Furious charge, T4 and a 4+ save , Mad Dok giving the squad FNP and Fearless.

  They move 6", can run d6" (sometimes with a re roll from Warlord Trait) and when I WAAAGH (and waaagh I shall) they can charge AFTER running , with 'Ere we go giving them a re-roll on charge distance. 

 

  The squad itself without Mad Dok costs 340 pts. 

 

  On the charge , (if everyone's alive by then) they roll 120 attacks with Ws4 S4.  Plus Nob with his 4 Ws 4 S9 Ap2 power klaw attacks. Dok has another 4 PK attacks.

 

So bikes HAVE to charge these guys , or shoot them (but that could take a loong time) -or else the Orks will

 

 Be honest here guys, who do you think is gonna do more dmg to this unit, 5 Black knights or 2 smal units of regular bikes with 3 flamers each ?   

[Interrogator Stobz]

How much is Mad Dok? 60ish? That makes them about 400points.

400 points of RWKnights should beat that squad. 20 Talon shots to kill about 10, charge and kill another 7+rends, even more if you get the FnP Dok early through positioning or challenges, lose a dude or four in return, hit and run, ignore the remainder and maim something else in your turn. repeat. Now it might not work, the dice gods are fickle, but point for point, they do ok against hordes too.

Flamers on 400 points of either RW or WS will do nicely too, they will just do the job differently.

There is nothing bad about Knights, they function well in every phase. Not broken, just well.

My 3 dubloons.

stobz

Edit: math

[aekold]

I have to agree with Brother Stobz. I would take on that squad with black knights. (given 10 to equal out points). The odds are even more in the black knights favour when factoring in stasis grenades with -1ws. But if we are adding characters, why not go with an chaplain to increase the amount of hits?

 

Careful positioning can even mean that the power klaw doesn't get to strike in the first round.

[ValourousHeart]

I never understood the insurance on comparing 2 units of equal value.

 

If the Ork unit is such a big threat, why would you assume that I wouldn't deal with it swiftly.

 

Now if you were talking about fielding 6 of those units and just push the blob across the table.

Well the 720 attacks on the charge before PK... Well that is something to raise an eyebrow.

[Garath]

     Ok, if you like BK - have fun.  I find them to expensive and will not field them as a result. But I respect your oppinions.

[SvenONE]

I can agree partially with the anti-BK sentiment.  I believe they are too expensive still, I wish there was an option for a shooty loadout or a CC loadout to keep cost down rather than having to take both.  After all we live in the world of 35 point vanila terminators; but you can't really compare footslogging Storm Bolter terminators to BKs.  I also agree that you can't really compare say a BK squad to a Bike Mounted command squad.  Let's not forget that the bike mounted command squad usually comes in the form of a few storm shields and power fists, so the cost is roughly the same, but comes with slightly better shooting.

 

I've seen people bring 10-15 black knights and understandably lose games because they've sunk over 500+ points in a handful of models.  But that was in 6th edition when you didn't have a re-rollable 3+.  Basically my rule of thumb is just to bring the command squad.  That's really all I think you need.

 

Not counting Ignores Cover or No Armor/Cover Saves damage, Black Knights went from a 66% chance of surviving an AP3/AP2 shot to an 88% chance of survival.  That's basically the equivalent a 2+ invulnerable save.  If you throw in a Darkshroud that's basically a 97% survival, and that doesn't count the Apothecary you probably invest in.  That's boss.  It might be more expensive than a Vanilla Bike Command Squad, but it certainly is far more durable.  Just don't charge Distortion templates and you may also want to avoid markerlight LOS.

 

Beyond Black Knights though RW is still a wonderfully solid force.  Let's not forget we have formations specifically for our bikes as opposed to WS who are forced to CAD and.  We can bring Bikes, entirely unencumbered and for pretty cheap.  Field an attack squadron, deploy your Landspeeder, reserve your bike, scout onto a side of the board.  Hit your target with a Speeder, and enjoy BS5 Melta guns, plasma guns, grav guns etc on whatever you're taking out.  WS can't do that.

 

I've played 2 games of RW so far, one against Daemons and one cut short against Orks that was leaning my way but you can't really say who was going to win that, but I've never really found myself having trouble with Orks though.  Weather permitting I might be playing 2 games against Necrons this weekend (we're going to play outside because of basement renovations my friend is doing on his house), one of which I'll be using RW again.

[Garath]

I never understood the insurance on comparing 2 units of equal value.

If the Ork unit is such a big threat, why would you assume that I wouldn't deal with it swiftly.

Now if you were talking about fielding 6 of those units and just push the blob across the table.

Well the 720 attacks on the charge before PK... Well that is something to raise an eyebrow.

Comparing 2 units of equal value in points .

40k i sa game where (unlike other games like Warmahordes for example) each unit you take should have a specific purpose - a primary task for it and then a secondary one if the primary is absent or achieved by another unit .

And the lesser the cost of a unit doing this , the greater it's value. In other words - if a task can be done by a cheap unit- don't use an expensive one.

So in my example of an 'Ard boyz mob - sending 400 pts worth of knights is pointless. If you can have 2 smaller units of bikes flame those orks - by Emperor DO it!

Stobz (and again I respect you oppinion) says BK will fire talons, charge ,avoid PK (don't know how since they can be safely positioned in the middle of the squad , and then hit and run .

And that is all viable, but here are a few reasons why knights are a bad choice, a Ravenwing command squad + bike unit is a much better choice.

10 BK :

can H&R for 3d6 - 10 inches being the average number. Unless they badly dent the orks- they will get counter charged

RWCS + small unit of bikes:

-can have an additional d6 added to their H&R if Ravenwing company banner is taken (no reason not to)

- they can H&R in different directions, so the orksin their turn cannot charge both units at once

- small bike unit can screen the command squad (position the bikes sideways) and can fire their flamers on overwatch too

- you can claim 2 counters with two bike units that just made H&R

- they provide 2 targets for the orks to shoot at

- they can use 2 attack vectors when closing in

- they look cooler on the table when spread out (i had to)

[CarbonBased]

 

 Unless they badly dent the orks- they will get counter charged

 

 

Why would you hit and run on your turn? You hit and run on opponents turn. Keeps you from getting shot, charged, etc.

[WellSpokenMan]

Any unit that charges a 10 bike BK unit (that hasn't jinked) is going to eat a lot of plasma, 10 hits within 9",  That removing that many models is going to seriously change the charge range.  Don't assume that the BKs will have jinked either.  There are a lot of ways to shield a unit if you think you need to have that overwatch deterent.

[IndigoJack]

I think I'm beginning to see why we're not quite meaning eye-to-eye on BKs now. I've been using the RWCS and BKs interchangeably, since they're functionally the same unit. I apologize if this has created any confusion. If you're saying MSU BKs is a bad option, I totally agree. They're simply too expensive to effectively MSU.

 

If I had to sum up the biggest difference between WS and RW, it would be in play styles. WS MSU a lot better than RW, but RW can build a better deathstar. I've been running a RWCS deathstar with MSU support and it has done far better than my WS command squad gravstar ever did.

[Garath]

 

 

 Unless they badly dent the orks- they will get counter charged

 

 

Why would you hit and run on your turn? You hit and run on opponents turn. Keeps you from getting shot, charged, etc.

 

  Against that unit of Ork you would. Mad Dok gives the whole unit +d3 attacks if your opponent outnumberst you.  So if a big unit of RK kills enough orks to outnumber them - the rest will have more attacks.  It boils down to Nobs pk attacks (which are 3 initially) and Mad Doks.  Imagine them having 6 extra power klaw attacks.

 

I'm sure that now that we know this, anyone would H&R - and do it as far as possible. 

[Garath]

I think I'm beginning to see why we're not quite meaning eye-to-eye on BKs now. I've been using the RWCS and BKs interchangeably, since they're functionally the same unit. I apologize if this has created any confusion. If you're saying MSU BKs is a bad option, I totally agree. They're simply too expensive to effectively MSU.

 

 

  That might be it. I was reffering to BK specifically, not the RWCS.  RWCS has an apothecary, a champ (not crucial but it migh help) and most notably , a FABULOUS banner ! 

   BK lack those things. 

[SvenONE]

 

  Stobz (and again I respect you oppinion) says BK will fire talons, charge ,avoid PK (don't know how  since they can be safely positioned in the middle of the squad , and then hit and run .  

   And that is all viable, but here are a few reasons why knights are a bad choice, a Ravenwing command squad + bike unit is a much better choice.

 

10 BK :

can H&R for 3d6 - 10 inches being the average number.  Unless they badly dent the orks- they will get counter charged

 

Well I would say that 10BK could also mean 2x5 BKs, theoretically you could also run 2 command squads if you really wanted (not that it would offer any benefit).

 

Between the shooting, charging, and attacks, the BKs should dent enough.  A lot of times with Orks they're spread enough in such a way that the back lines usually have difficulty reaching combat anyway.  Don't forget that charging Orks robs them of Furious Charge which means wounding on 5s which helps significantly with survivability.

 

Also, one thing that I'm not seeing mentioned too often is the Darkshroud's secondary uses.  Those boyz won't be able to overwatch.  

 

Edit: Also, Mad Dok isn't that cheap, and knowing that you're adding +D3 attacks, you'd be kind of silly to charge it in the first place.  We're talking about a mob of footslogging boyz vs highly mobile forces.  You can't just compare the BKs vs them, because that isn't taking into account flying a darktalon over it, a Landspeeder Vengeance Blast, or volumes upon volumes of boltgun fire from a Support Squadron.

 

If the argument is Orks vs Ravenwing, we can frame it a little differently by looking at an Ork list vs a RW list.  But I think we can all agree a mix of RW units is something you'll need to be successful.  I don't think anyone's ever suggested running mass BKs as a successful list.