Ravenwing vs White Scars

[elphilo]

I think I'm beginning to see why we're not quite meaning eye-to-eye on BKs now. I've been using the RWCS and BKs interchangeably, since they're functionally the same unit. I apologize if this has created any confusion. If you're saying MSU BKs is a bad option, I totally agree. They're simply too expensive to effectively MSU.

 

If I had to sum up the biggest difference between WS and RW, it would be in play styles. WS MSU a lot better than RW, but RW can build a better deathstar. I've been running a RWCS deathstar with MSU support and it has done far better than my WS command squad gravstar ever did.

 

Yep. If I could somehow get WS MSU Objective Secured in a RWCS Deathstar I would be so happy. I have one list, but it has NO psychic dice and that really scares me lol

[Liberame]

Again I ask, why are you comparing BK to WS with flamers. WS with flamers should be compared to RW with flamers. We pay a small premium to have built in scouts and teleport homers. But we also have access to BK, which is an amazing unit for things that flamers aren't so hot against.

[Garath]

How we got to that comparison is ; me saying BK aren't all that.Then several people got into the discussion, with positive points about BK.My 3 negative points about BK where that they cost too much, can kill themselves with Talons and are bad at crowd control.

Then ,to give us an example of crowd control I introduced 30 ard boyz with Mad Dok Grotsnik as an example situation ...where other options besides BK do better.

 

LOL....out of context it's apples and oranges

[ValourousHeart]

 

I never understood the insurance on comparing 2 units of equal value.

 

If the Ork unit is such a big threat, why would you assume that I wouldn't deal with it swiftly.

 

Now if you were talking about fielding 6 of those units and just push the blob across the table.

Well the 720 attacks on the charge before PK... Well that is something to raise an eyebrow.

 

  Comparing 2 units of equal value in points . 

 

  40k i sa game where (unlike other games like Warmahordes for example) each unit you take should have a specific purpose - a primary task for it and then a secondary one if the primary is absent or achieved by another unit .

 

  And the lesser the cost of a unit doing this , the greater it's value.  In other words - if a task can be done by a cheap unit- don't use an expensive one.

 

  So in my example of an 'Ard boyz mob - sending 400 pts worth of knights is pointless.  If you can have 2 smaller units of bikes flame those orks - by Emperor DO it!

 

Oh I get the part where you have a plan for how your units will deal with the different targets they will face.

 

No what I don't get is when people compare 2 similarly priced units that have nothing else in common.

An attack bike with MM and a land speeder with 2 HB are the same price... and after that they are both space marines... and after that... well there is no after that.

 

They don't really cross over in role, unless you take their secondary target... which would be MC.

But realistically if you knew you were facing MC and not Tanks you wouldn't have taken then the MM on the AB, instead you would have taken the HB.

And then you are comparing if 2 HB are better than 1 HB... which is a stupid question when you think about it.

 

So to me it seems incomplete to compare 1 beat stick unit with 1 tar pit unit.

What makes more sense is comparing 2 beat stick units vs the same tar pit unit and see who pushes further through.

Then compare them to other different types of units, to show where each is weak and strong.

 

I think what you will find is that the RWBK, RWCS or the RW Bike Squad is better or worse than the WSCS or WS Bike Squad vs other random squad types.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Why would you take a heavy bolter against monstrous creatures? Wounding on 5s against a creature which usually has a 3+ save seems pretty pointless. Grav-guns and multi-meltas kill them even more easily than they kill armour.

 

In regards to Black Knights, although they're cool, Ravenwing squads spamming grav-guns can take down heavy infantry or monstrous creatures just as easily as the plasma talons for fewer points. Hence their usual role would be melee, but then they suffer from the terminator problem, being too expensive for the amount of attacks they can bring to bear and their survivability. For similar points you can get Deathwing Knights who are better in everything except mobility.

[ValourousHeart]

The reason you take heavy bolters vs MC is because MC have multiple wounds.

 

A multi melta will never kill a MC in a single turn.

It does even worse vs a mob of Ork Boys.

 

That speeder with 2 HB will do far and away more damage to the MC than the MMAB.

 

Of course there are better units for both of those to attack.

And of course there are better units to deal with the MC.

 

But I did say that the comparison of those two units that are the same price is dumb because you would never swap one for the other vs the same army or target unit.

 

You would always take the MMAB if you knew your opponent was bringing land raiders.

And you would always take the 2HB land speeder if you were facing all infantry with 4+ armor.

 

The army that you might consider both is Nids.

But I'd bet that you would take different weapon choices vs Nids because the efficacy could be better.

[SnakeChisler]

Why would you take a heavy bolter against monstrous creatures? Wounding on 5s against a creature which usually has a 3+ save seems pretty pointless. Grav-guns and multi-meltas kill them even more easily than they kill armour.

 

In regards to Black Knights, although they're cool, Ravenwing squads spamming grav-guns can take down heavy infantry or monstrous creatures just as easily as the plasma talons for fewer points. Hence their usual role would be melee, but then they suffer from the terminator problem, being too expensive for the amount of attacks they can bring to bear and their survivability. For similar points you can get Deathwing Knights who are better in everything except mobility.

They can be given a bucket load of attacks that hit on 3+ wound on 3+ rending using their grenade launcher or the new Talon loadout + Psychic powers to nerf the enemy + Rage blind tests

 

You can have 6 of them, overwatch is tasty they are a really reliable anti air unit with ap2 weapons many a flier has come crashing down.

 

With 2 HQ's you can attack spam just about any combat unit the only thing that's held me up has been Necrons with double resurection Even then coz they were blind they couldn't hit the backside of a barn door & they would take a Blind test every turn due to a relic.

 

The Dark Shroud negates Overwatch as well as causing Fear

 

The whole thing is one unit not Captain Cheesehammer from White Scars + Khan comboed with Space Wolves, comboed with god knows what 

[SvenONE]

Yeah I wouldn't really back that logic.  Heavy Bolter shots against MCs would be largely a waste of shooting.  You basically need 13-14 shots (about 3 shooting phases from one speeder staying arms length away) to score a wound on a T6/3+ MC.  You only need 2 shots from multi-meltas (or perhaps more poignantly, TML/CML) to score a wound.

 

Keeping it on topic of WS vs RW.  The attack squadron and the Support Squadron are great reasons that WS is more flexible vs MCs.  Vanilla may have Centurions, but they are largely immobile.  Support and Attack Squadrons allow you to actually throw together a nice mix of units for take on both Horde and MCs.  Sure, WS could take us as an allied formation, but at the end of the day we could still rib them for us doing something better than them!

 

An Ideal mixed setup for a horde army (Daemons[with exceptions], Orks, Tyranids) would be for me:

 

RW Attack Squadron:

6 Bikes [2 Grav Guns, Combi-Grav]

Attack Bike [Multi-Melta]

Landspeeder [Heavy Bolter, TML]

 

That's 320 points.  When you start your shooting phase you can pretty much pack a punch against a MC

 

Landspeeder shoots first, should score 1 wound with the TML, hit but most likely won't wound with the HB

Attack Bike shoots first, now with BS5, has about a 70% of scoring a wound

Bikes shoot grav guns at max range.  Ignoring the Combi, they'll score 5 out of 6 of those shots, and wound about half (another 3)

 

That's about 4 wounds in 1 round of shooting.  That's a dead Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant (assuming they are on the ground), a dead Carnifex, and heavily wounded Wraithknights, Lords, Bloodthirster so on and so forth.

 

Is that MC charging you? Are you in a lion's blade? Sure, enjoy BS4 and watch it die after it charges you, or the Support Squadron backing you up.

 

Against Hordes it's doing pretty well too.

 

Sure, grav gun isn't any good against hordes, but don't forget Bikes don't trade in their twinlinked boltguns for the gravs.

 

At 24" you've still got 7 twin-linked shots that will (hopefully) be at BS5, 14 at 12"

Multi Melta at BS5

TML blasts and heavy bolter shots at BS3.

 

That's going to leave a dent in a lot of T3 hordes and poor armor saves.  It's an extremely well balanced mobile ranged force.  The RWAS is heads is really good, and I would say better than WS overall force of bikes.

[IndigoJack]

I agree that comparing the MM and the HB on the attack bike in terms of killing MCs isn't a great comparison. If your attack bike is in the unit, You're likely shooting grav (or something else that hurts MCs well) at it so it's not really wasted there. If it's by itself there are probably better targets anyways (plinking a wound off another MC, firing at a target that you intend to charge, hiding it to score objectives late game, etc.)

[Freman Bloodglaive]

 

Why would you take a heavy bolter against monstrous creatures? Wounding on 5s against a creature which usually has a 3+ save seems pretty pointless. Grav-guns and multi-meltas kill them even more easily than they kill armour.

 

In regards to Black Knights, although they're cool, Ravenwing squads spamming grav-guns can take down heavy infantry or monstrous creatures just as easily as the plasma talons for fewer points. Hence their usual role would be melee, but then they suffer from the terminator problem, being too expensive for the amount of attacks they can bring to bear and their survivability. For similar points you can get Deathwing Knights who are better in everything except mobility.

They can be given a bucket load of attacks that hit on 3+ wound on 3+ rending using their grenade launcher or the new Talon loadout + Psychic powers to nerf the enemy + Rage blind tests

 

You can have 6 of them, overwatch is tasty they are a really reliable anti air unit with ap2 weapons many a flier has come crashing down.

 

With 2 HQ's you can attack spam just about any combat unit the only thing that's held me up has been Necrons with double resurection Even then coz they were blind they couldn't hit the backside of a barn door & they would take a Blind test every turn due to a relic.

 

The Dark Shroud negates Overwatch as well as causing Fear

 

The whole thing is one unit not Captain Cheesehammer from White Scars + Khan comboed with Space Wolves, comboed with god knows what 

 

 

You're putting a lot of points into support just to make sure your 200 point unit can kill a 150 point tactical squad. I would expect an investment of 400 odd points to do that. Better overwatch is great, if people charge you. If not then you're in a shooting war, and that's where any elite bike unit suffers because they're a lot of points for each shot they generate. White Scars can bring tooled command squads and even Vangaurd Veterans (in a first company  formation) so they don't need combos. As for Chapter Master Smashbane (White Scars version), given that you pay 250+ points for him it's not cheese really.

[WellSpokenMan]

A RW biker with a Grav-gun is the same price as a BK, not cheaper. 

 

A BK gets more attacks than a Termie

 

200 points of BKs can kill 7 Tacs on average in the shooting phase alone, if they are in the open and in double tap range.  That same 200 points will get 5 S4 attacks and 20 Str5 Rending attacks.  If you gave up some plasma for a GL, you will probably hit first against lowered WS.  They can kill more than a 150 point tactical squad.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I'm liking this discussion; one thing that I feel is important that keeps the RWBK/RWSC(BK) viable for it's points is that it can shoot nearly as well as the other options mentioned for the points, both RW and WS, but they can function much better in the CC phase. You pay points for Mobility, Firepower AND Combat power, the unit IS are a waste of points if you don't use all their assets and if you compare them to mono phase specialist units. Now that the Ravenwing rule has given them more resilience they are fantastic and seldom fail to please me on the table.

 

I appreciate that they will never be some peoples cup of tea; but taloning an elite enemy to weaken it then multi charging them and a softer target and driving both units off the board in the Morale 'phase' is something that shooty units seldom achieve.

CC can be much more decisive that shooting if used well. The mobility of the BKs with their innate ignoring difficult terrain allows the player to retain the initiative and decide on the targets better than many other CC units.

In comparison to the C:SM WSCS they are lesser CC beasts, but that is mitigated by the talons.

 

When it comes to RWAS vs WS Bike squads, I think the lower cost of the WS tips the comparison fully in their favour despite our new rules and despite our support. 

But our RWSS are now crazy fantastic and should be spammed whenever possible ;)

 

:D

bs

[SnakeChisler]

Captain bike shield eternal thunder hammer has been know as captain cheesehammmer round our way since 6th marine dex came out, same kind of tag for Buffmander from Tau!

 

We've a few more personal ones for other characters but my entry wold get censored or deleted.

 

Anyways the point I was making was synergy with other DA units the sum of the whole is greater than its parts

 

A DA Ravenwing player doesn't use the command squad to smash face like the Scars version is designed to do, it's a squad of harassment and opertunity, even with characters I wouldn't go bulldozing into the tooled Scars CS without nixing it so I hit 1st & had re-rolls it's a different style of play.

 

The last thing I'm looking for is a fair fight

[Garath]

Captain bike shield eternal thunder hammer has been know as captain cheesehammmer round our way since 6th marine dex came out, same kind of tag for Buffmander from Tau!

 

We've a few more personal ones for other characters but my entry wold get censored or deleted.

 

 We call him the Smash:cusser...

[Freman Bloodglaive]

No engagement in this game should ever be a fair fight.

[WellSpokenMan]

I wouldn't say unfair per se, but exploiting weaknesses in your opponent while taking maximum advantage of your strengths is what is all about.  Bikes in general and RW in particular are a finesse army.  With such a small model count, your decisions on what and where to engage are much less forgiving.  On the other hand, what is great about bikes is that you get to choose who fights who.  It's the same reason that scatterbikes irritated me so much.  Mobility like that doesn't mean you'll autowin, but if you are on your game you should be a real challenge for your opponents.

[Crazy Jay]

No engagement in this game should ever be a fair fight.

This is the basic premise of my strategy. The person who picks the unit to unit match ups will typically win the game.

[Frater Cornelius]

Hm, I kind of have to back up Garath, if that is even necessary at that point, on his argument about BK and RWB. However, let me put it more plainly.

 

Having BK as the backbone of your army is inferior to having RWB as your backbone. The reason for that is that your backbone should be numerous and cheap enough to be relegated to scoring duty or mopping up enemy squads. RWBK are simply too expensive and too few in numbers to be effective at scoring or dealing damage. They are a unit that requires a considerable investment to work, where a RWB unit can easily work in 3s if need be.

 

On the other hand, every army should have a hammer, a hard-hitting unit to take the pain to the enemy in a timely manner. Such unit needs to be flexible and tough. The RWCS, and by extension RWBK if you are so inclined to take two hammers, are superior at that job because their effectiveness increases faster with the amount of points sunk into it than with RWB.

 

I hope that made sense.

[shabbadoo]

Perfect sense. You gotta have bodies to suck up wounds and still be able to accomplish your goals.  If you don't, then everything comes down to you being able to pick your fights and hit first, and even then it is an uphill struggle againt any sort of decent player.