captain sox Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Trying to decide where to take my army, now that all (and I mean ALL) of my Space Marine stuff is gone. I'm all in on AM / MT (mostly) now. I have a HUGE Scion force (9 x 10 man Squads), backed up by a few Knights. I have a few Astra Militarum squads too, namely Sentinels and Bullgryns. I got rid of all my Chimera chassis models AND my Hellhammer (replaced with Knights). the Taurox will be the vehicle of choice for my army. So, here are the questions. 1. Can a Veteran Squad have more that 2 doctrines? Can they take Carapace and Demolition doctrine? 2. Is the Master of Ordnance worth it for your Company Command Squad? He'll be in a Taurox with the other blokes, who will be toting Plasma and Grenade Launchers. If the Taurox moves, can he shoot his barrage? 3. Are Valkyries a worthwhile Flyer? (yes I know I have Scions, but most will be in a Taurox or teleporting) What is it's most effective role? 4. Should I add more Scions or a few Veteran Squads? Thanks for checking this out. It feels funny asking these questions since I've been here for a few years now... I'll update my Scion Army post soon too... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311879-a-few-questions/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
morroccomole Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Regarding veteran doctrines, the codex entry on p. 96 says "can choose any of the following." Thusly, I guess they can have more than one doctrine. But that would be too many points spent in a single squishy squad for my tastes Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311879-a-few-questions/#findComment-4136764 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 1. Can a Veteran Squad have more that 2 doctrines? Can they take Carapace and Demolition doctrine? Short answer, yes. As Morrocco stated it says choose any of the following. It's expensive, but it can be effective. 2. Is the Master of Ordnance worth it for your Company Command Squad? He'll be in a Taurox with the other blokes, who will be toting Plasma and Grenade Launchers. If the Taurox moves, can he shoot his barrage? He is worth it, yes. Can he shoot his barrage if he moves, no, because it's ordnance. He can do a ton of damage with that one blast and artillery is never a bad thing. Though, I'm on board with the Taurox, I'd have kept chimeras for my command squads, so they don't have to get out to issue orders. 3. Are Valkyries a worthwhile Flyer? (yes I know I have Scions, but most will be in a Taurox or teleporting) What is it's most effective role? Absolutely, I take a mix of 2 valks and one vendetta. I prefer the valk in a crowd control role, but keeping the missiles isn't terrible especially if you pay to upgrade to a lascannon. I think the Vendetta is a better tank hunter, but the Rocket pod valk is indispensable. It's a great transport for vets and IC's and great close air support. 4. Should I add more Scions or a few Veteran Squads? Veterans will get you the cheap bodies you'll need, and they also do some things that scions can't, like take 3 special weapons, or take doctrines. Scions can footslog better than vets because of MTC, but vets have those doctrines. Demolitions with melta is a great tank killer, sacrifice shooting your lasguns, to fire melta, huck some meltabombs from the others, then charge it and hit it with more meltabombs. So much melta. Honestly for a scion force, go big on the scion platoons and fill them up, but get at least 2 vet squads to do the things that scions can't. If you need more of what scions can't do, take more vets. Ultimately, I'd aim for filling your FOC slots at the total force level. Get 3 full platoons of scions and 6 squads of vets. I'm all for the Platoon/Vet troops combo though, vets melta everything, while the platoon provides the fire support base to get the job done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311879-a-few-questions/#findComment-4136820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I'm not sure a MoO is a good idea if you're also running a Scion force, as they'll need to get close and you can't afford friendly fire. Workable though if you still want his pie plate but as mentioned he needs to stand still to fire it. Valkyries are best thought of as a transport and support gunship. Ferry a squad around, even if only to sneakily cap objectives and the usual pod build to pummel infantry is a good build. I also agree that Vets could be a good way to add bodies, but they might just feel like a poor man's Stormie if you load up on doctrines. So I'd keep them cheap if you add some, maybe carapace and melta so they can hunt armour and free your Scions up to make better use of their AP3? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311879-a-few-questions/#findComment-4136986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I find the MOO way to unreliable. He is a fun inclusion, but when going after efficiency, I prefer things that do things reliably, like Dozer Blades. As for the Valkyrie, make no mistake, it is not an Air to Air fighter. It is air to ground and primarily anti infantry. It does its job pretty well. But id you are looking to bust heavy armour air to ground, then the Valkyrie does it better and the Vulture is king of air to air. What I am saying is do not shoe horn the Valyrie in a job that it is not designed to do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311879-a-few-questions/#findComment-4137160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 The MoO is great for softening up blobs and also great for hitting vehicles. True it's barrage, and he'll scatter the full 2d6 without LOS, but don't bring his shooting in close to your scions. Use him to blast the things that your scions can't reach, then run the scions in to finish it off. The Vendetta and Vulture are your best anti air flyers (without going Forge World), but they both can do air to ground effectively as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311879-a-few-questions/#findComment-4137261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 MOO scatters 3D6 and 2D6 when it is a hit. This means that you will rarely hit what you intended to hit. When faced with an IG blob or Green Tide it might help, but against most armies it is purely luck based. Edit: The Vulture is Forge World. The reason the Vulture outclasses the Vendetta against anything but a Stormraven or Stormwolf is because it has Vector Dancer, thus being able to reliably get into the rear armour of nearly anything and unload 20 S5 twin-linked shots. It also costs 15pts less than a Vendetta. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311879-a-few-questions/#findComment-4137271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Carapace armor is great when you are running ig against marines that might expect you to take a large number of flakk armor troops. I know I've run into both with massed bolter fire out in the open ig die in droves and carapace armor cuts their casualties literally in half... But against scions and carapace vets I would load up on auto cannons assault cannons and heavy bolters ... All of which can hurt most of your vehicles, negate your armor entirely and provide high rate of fire at decent range with excellent to wound rolls. This forces you into cover to survive which gets me to my real point... . Veterans can have cammo gear right? Forward sentries I think... Como vets in cover with the right weapons can be a real pain... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311879-a-few-questions/#findComment-4137407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 1. Can a Veteran Squad have more that 2 doctrines? Can they take Carapace and Demolition doctrine? Yep, and it can be really fun to field such elite squads. 2. Is the Master of Ordnance worth it for your Company Command Squad? He'll be in a Taurox with the other blokes, who will be toting Plasma and Grenade Launchers. If the Taurox moves, can he shoot his barrage? He cannot move and shoot so take that into account. Otherwise, I've never regretted him the few times I've used him. 3. Are Valkyries a worthwhile Flyer? (yes I know I have Scions, but most will be in a Taurox or teleporting) What is it's most effective role? Valkyries are wonderful flyers, especially for Scions where they heavy botlers are magically half the cost of IG Valks. Also, if you're playing with the ITC rules (a lot of places here on the west coast are) then the default missiles don't cause each other to snap fire. A wonderful change that opens the Valk up as anti-air in a pinch and even allows them to target ground armor as well. Otherwise, the other posters are abundantly correct in their assertion that its main job is targeting infantry. 4. Should I add more Scions or a few Veteran Squads? You've got a nice and characterful thing going on with Scions, so I'd stick with that if it works for you. Run the vets for extra special weapons and to allow access to other IG units (like Vultures and Valks.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311879-a-few-questions/#findComment-4137484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain sox Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 Thanks for all the replies! I think I have a good idea what I'm going to do moving forward. Libris, I've always wondered what ITC rules are? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311879-a-few-questions/#findComment-4137602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 On ITC-related issues, Frontlinegaming has you covered ;) https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/40k-faq/ https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/itc-2015-season-40k-tournament-format/ No, I am not affiliated with them. I just read their stuff with plenty of gusto :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311879-a-few-questions/#findComment-4137609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 A lot of west coast stores and events have moved on to using them as a standard FAQ, so a lot of people over here have started to treat them like the default. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311879-a-few-questions/#findComment-4137763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 MOO scatters 3D6 and 2D6 when it is a hit. This means that you will rarely hit what you intended to hit. When faced with an IG blob or Green Tide it might help, but against most armies it is purely luck based. Edit: The Vulture is Forge World. The reason the Vulture outclasses the Vendetta against anything but a Stormraven or Stormwolf is because it has Vector Dancer, thus being able to reliably get into the rear armour of nearly anything and unload 20 S5 twin-linked shots. It also costs 15pts less than a Vendetta. Where do you get that 3d6 thing from? I've never read that, so if you can point me to the page where that is it would be much appreciated. As for your second point about the Vulture, I completely agree. However, the Vendetta is the best option for those of us that are restricted by Forge World availability (I live in the States, so I'd have to wait a while for Forge world to show, not to mention the premium pricing and international shipping). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311879-a-few-questions/#findComment-4137982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 MOO scatters 3D6 and 2D6 when it is a hit. This means that you will rarely hit what you intended to hit. When faced with an IG blob or Green Tide it might help, but against most armies it is purely luck based. Edit: The Vulture is Forge World. The reason the Vulture outclasses the Vendetta against anything but a Stormraven or Stormwolf is because it has Vector Dancer, thus being able to reliably get into the rear armour of nearly anything and unload 20 S5 twin-linked shots. It also costs 15pts less than a Vendetta. Where do you get that 3d6 thing from? I've never read that, so if you can point me to the page where that is it would be much appreciated. As for your second point about the Vulture, I completely agree. However, the Vendetta is the best option for those of us that are restricted by Forge World availability (I live in the States, so I'd have to wait a while for Forge world to show, not to mention the premium pricing and international shipping). Check Artillery Bombardment in the glossary section for the 3d6 scatter on the MoO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311879-a-few-questions/#findComment-4138005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 The Master of Ordnance has a special rule with regards to firing his Artillery that makes him woefully inaccurate. I've personally only ever had him kill one thing in all the times I've ran him - my own Hellhound. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311879-a-few-questions/#findComment-4138177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 MOO scatters 3D6 and 2D6 when it is a hit. This means that you will rarely hit what you intended to hit. When faced with an IG blob or Green Tide it might help, but against most armies it is purely luck based. Edit: The Vulture is Forge World. The reason the Vulture outclasses the Vendetta against anything but a Stormraven or Stormwolf is because it has Vector Dancer, thus being able to reliably get into the rear armour of nearly anything and unload 20 S5 twin-linked shots. It also costs 15pts less than a Vendetta. Where do you get that 3d6 thing from? I've never read that, so if you can point me to the page where that is it would be much appreciated. As for your second point about the Vulture, I completely agree. However, the Vendetta is the best option for those of us that are restricted by Forge World availability (I live in the States, so I'd have to wait a while for Forge world to show, not to mention the premium pricing and international shipping). Check Artillery Bombardment in the glossary section for the 3d6 scatter on the MoO. Thanks. I have been doing it wrong. That's a serious load of crap, if it hits it should hit, not it hit but it still scatters, what the hell kind of fires officer can't get his artillery zeroed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311879-a-few-questions/#findComment-4138267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 I personally fluff it as an Ion Cannon fired from orbit, but I know, I know, heresy. :P I guess it's a counterbalance to how gosh-darn cheap he is for dishing out that kind of firepower. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311879-a-few-questions/#findComment-4138282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
morroccomole Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Where do you get that 3d6 thing from? I've never read that, so if you can point me to the page where that is it would be much appreciated. Under the artillery bombardment blurb of the "Regimental Advisors" codex entry, p. 31. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311879-a-few-questions/#findComment-4138630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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