Sigismund229 Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Looks like there's plenty to be getting on with for the moment. However, in book 2 the Crimson Lions are the only loyalist legion. Shouldn't we try to balance it out a bit more? Also, for the Imperial army in book 3, do we know which unit(s) of the Imperial Army it's going to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share Posted October 29, 2015 Looks like there's plenty to be getting on with for the moment. However, in book 2 the Crimson Lions are the only loyalist legion. Shouldn't we try to balance it out a bit more? Also, for the Imperial army in book 3, do we know which unit(s) of the Imperial Army it's going to be? I don't doubt that it's a lot, but is there enough? Keep in mind, this will have no impact on the first half of Book 1, which is why I want to go ahead and address this now before we get too deep into the Book. We're talking about a galaxy-wide civil war. Should we really condense all of that into 12 campaigns? I'm not suggesting that we cover every major conflict, but I'm not convinced that what we have is a true representation of the Insurrection. It feels more like a few snapshots. As it is written, some legions are only getting one major campaign to show themselves. The Wardens of Light only get the spotlight in Book 3, while the Iron Bears aren't getting much after Book 1. Plus, we're having both base and Daemonic versions of the Traitor Primarchs puts a lot of pressure on the pacing. What I'm thinking is expanding it into 6 books, two per major phase:Traitor Advance, Revolutionary Break, and Loyalist Victory. Having 4 legions/factions (maybe 5) would have us finished with 16 legions/factions by the end of Corruption, instead of 12. More time can be used to truly show the corruption of Chaos by having the Traitor legions mostly normal by the end of Book 1, but nearing full corruption by the end of book 4 with the Godslayer zombie units debuting and so on. Big Bad Squig 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grifftofer Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 I think this might make things easier overall. I was wondering when I looked at the contents for book one how we would fit it all in without it becoming completely unwieldy. We would then just have to re-arrange who goes where to fit the more spread out time-line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrawes Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Making 6 books is a lot of effort. I want to have faith that it will get done but I just don't see everyone sticking with it that long. It's your project man so If you feel like you want to stick it out for 6 books go ahead but I feel like making it 6 books is going to leave the people whose legions are in the last books hanging on hopping the project actually ever gets there. i don't mean to be a downer, but this is a fan created volunteer project. Trying to keep this many people interested and involved seems really dubious to me. Top sum up, i think making the project any larger is a huge mistake if you ever want to see it finished. Doctor Perils 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphariusOmegon108 Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Making 6 books is a lot of effort. I want to have faith that it will get done but I just don't see everyone sticking with it that long. It's your project man so If you feel like you want to stick it out for 6 books go ahead but I feel like making it 6 books is going to leave the people whose legions are in the last books hanging on hopping the project actually ever gets there. i don't mean to be a downer, but this is a fan created volunteer project. Trying to keep this many people interested and involved seems really dubious to me. Top sum up, i think making the project any larger is a huge mistake if you ever want to see it finished. This, three books is plenty, 6 books would really push some of us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grifftofer Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 We're going to have some very big books then by the end of this then :P I did some quick maths and each faction needs at least 10-15 pages each to cover their rules and background. I've got about 10 at the beginning of each book for contents and other intro stuff. So before we get into putting any campaigns in at all we're pushing close to 100 pages. Then if people feel wordy the that just increases :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphariusOmegon108 Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 I would say 20-30 pages and then rules sounds like a good number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund229 Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Also, if we stick to 3 books we'd need to compress the legions info whereas 6 would give us more time to develop them. For the legions whose rules only appear in the last two books, we could still include them in the prior books just not put their rules in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Yeah. Sigismund is right here. I have no probs bringing my rules at the end. And we could work on the last book already. Cause i can also layout and can lend griff a hand. And for exame:the wardens atory when alexos sacrifies them is a goos story fitting into book 1. So no robs for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share Posted October 29, 2015 I understand both sides of this debate. More depth is always better, but no one here is getting paid to do the extra work. Already, Real Life is causing some issues, and we have limited resources to work with. But, ultimately, as risky as it might be, the story has a say here. And it needs more room to breath and grow. Athrawes, your own Lightning Bearers are almost 2 years old. The Halcyon Wardens are over a year old, while the Berserkers had their birthday just a 9 days ago. Grifft has been helping me since the start of this year. I believe that we have the team needed to get this project done. If anyone is going to accomplish a fan project like this, it's going to be us. Yet, I have a proposal to make sure we have something to show B&C for our effort that won't take a decade. We'll go with 6 books, but divide each book into three stages: Alpha, Beta, & Omega. Alpha stage will have the book's introduction/background, legion fluff chapters, and legion rules appendix. That way, anyone who wants to use our supplement have all of the basic rules to play our legions. We'll do this for each book, until all of them are in alpha stage. Then we move to Beta stage. Here, we add the campaigns and their fluff. Alternatively, we can move the book's background section here, to make it easier for us to complete the Alpha stage. Finally, in stage Omega, we add the campaign rules and finish up the project there. How does that sound? Big Bad Squig 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Captain Redd Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 That sounds great to me, I think it's a good way to keep progress going. And to add on a point this reminds me more of some my RPG campaigns opposed to a typical 40k project and I have a feeling quite a few of us will want to see this to the end because it's not just rules, but a great story as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrawes Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 But, ultimately, as risky as it might be, the story has a say here. And it needs more room to breath and grow. Athrawes, your own Lightning Bearers are almost 2 years old. The Halcyon Wardens are over a year old, while the Berserkers had their birthday just a 9 days ago. Grifft has been helping me since the start of this year. I believe that we have the team needed to get this project done. If anyone is going to accomplish a fan project like this, it's going to be us. Yes the Lightning Bearers are 2 years old, and I've barely finished working on their lore and rules and artwork and nearly completed an army for them. Your Halycon wardens are a year old, and how far have you gotten with them? You basically have all the rules for them and the legion history along side some scattered fluff pieces. You almost have your legion finished after a year and you are one of the most driven of the group. We're talking about fleshing out 18 Legions, with an alternate history and mythology, creating campaigns and universe specific rules for them and I guarantee not everyone will be as driven as you as you have been. The Bare minimum of having rules and background for each legion will take a year of effort at best, unless they are rushed. Adding campaigns and an intimate lore and narrative to fit them into and it gets worse. Now you want to expand to more campaigns and exemplary battles and It just sounds like over reaching. You pointed out my project, your's Simision and Raktras. Yes we have continued work on ours for months, but how many other Missing Legion projects have started and died since I started mine at the beginning of all this? I'd say at least a dozen if not more. Now, that isn't a slight against their project, but everyone is different and has a different level of drive. Expecting a large group to work past even the bare minimum we've laid out and hoping the'll keep with it (because if they don't it will leave someone else having to finish up their project in their absence, which is already happening with Hesh) I'm not asking to limit creativity, I'm asking to focus it on a solid and well written core. Leave it as something that can be expanded upon after it is finished. I'm asking for you to please not over reach. +++ This will be the last time I make the argument that I think it's a huge mistake to try and expand what you want to accomplish for an already daunting project. As I said before, the BotL is ultmately your project so run with what you feel you need to do for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Squig Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 I'm happy with 6 books; in all honesty BotL is what's keeping my motivation up for my legions. I appreciate that others won't have the time to produce enough work to fill out 6 books, and as such, if anyone needs anything extra being done, they should feel free to call on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 I can understand Atgrawes point. What is there against making the 3 books as a core ans then revising them. 2Nd edition with all added. So we have a foundation to built no stories. Flesh everything out. I mean look at the canonverse. They needed a lot of books and editions to flesh all out and they built most of the time atoo of the old lore. We can see further if we stand on the shoulders of a giant. But I love this project and have fun working on it. But i also work on the canonverse and try to write so that I can change minor details. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skalpynock Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Like Big Bad Squig, I see this project as a drive to actually flesh out my legions. I don't really see the Eagles and the Warbringers as the Second and the Eleventh as much as I see them as the Fourth and the Ninth. It has led me to actually write pretty interesting battles, no longer being bound to be lost before the Crusade ends. simison 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Well good thing in the broverse is: Gwachavad survives. Awesome thing in the canonverse is: The death of Gwal is just epic ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) I've made my decision, we're going with 6 books, 5 legions/factions per book (until we run out), and using the three stages. We still have the option to collapse the books back into 3 if necessary. Book 1 - Insurrection Lightning Bearers Iron Bears Grave Stalkers Godslayers Abyssi Campaigns - Madrigal Purge, Death of the Bear, Martian Civil War Book 2 - [blitz] Eagle Warriors Wardens of Light The Drowned Scions Hospitaller Ghost Walkers Campaigns - Betrayal of Friendship (Eagle Warriors attack Wardens of Light), Underwater Madness (Pionus vs Morro), The Haunting (Coch'ise attacks Fire Keepers) Note, I pushed back the Eagle Warriors to pair them with the Wardens for their battle. I brought the Ghost Walkers here because (if I remember right) Coch'ise is going to fall to Slaanesh, so this is a chance to get him here before he goes Daemon Primarch. Book 3 - Corruption Berserkers of Uran Crimson Lions Void Eagles Godslayers & Ghost Walkers (Daemon) Cognis Heretcia Campaigns - Blood Crusade (Berserkers/Eagle Warriors vs Crimson Lions) The Astral Dance (Void Eagles vs. Stygian Jackels), The Gods' Blessings (The Cognis go Chaos, Koschei spreads the love, Raktra collects skulls, and Coch'ise takes up a new hobby) Note - Since going Daemon only involves a few rule updates and a unit or two, I think we safely say that they won't take up as much space as a full legion entry. Book 4 - Revolution Warriors of Peace Warbringers Dune Serpents Stygian Jackels Berserkers of Uran & Eagle Warriors (Daemon) Campaign - Alliance Broken (WoP/Warbringers vs Grave Stalkers), Renegades gone Rogue (Jackels go to the Eastern Fringe and battle the Dune Serpents for control), Horrors from the Eye (The Berserkers and Eagle Warriors come back....different) Book 5 - Absolution Fire Keepers Imperial Army Faction Halcyon Wardens Warriors of Peace & Warbringers (Gene-warriors) [?] Lighting Bearers (Daemon) The Galactic Line (Fire Keepers & Imperial Army rally and hold against the Traitor advance), Science over Superstition (The Revolutionaries launch an invasion of Madrigal), The Final Battle (Brother against Brother) As you will note, there are in fact only 5 books. After trying to figure out the order for a good hour, having a sixth book involved a very empty book. So, I compressed it back into 5. I also included a spot in book 5 for potential new gene-crafted units for the Revolutionaries. If we don't come up with anything, we can toss that out easily. Questions, comments, insults? Edited October 30, 2015 by simison Big Bad Squig 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Seems fair to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Captain Redd Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Less a note on rules, but in book 3 it would seem to be a place worth noting the Bears involvement in the Crimson Lions shadow campaign and The Battle of the Forge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 Less a note on rules, but in book 3 it would seem to be a place worth noting the Bears involvement in the Crimson Lions shadow campaign and The Battle of the Forge. Got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praefectus Invictus Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Is the Blood Crusade our version of the Shadow Crusade, as the Jackals were also heavily involved in it. They fought with the Eagle Warriors and Berserkers up until cadia, where they took off and fired upon the Eagle Warriors fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skalpynock Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Apparently Retaliation will contain rules for gene-chimeras, and by the time we get to that point February will be long past, so I figure we'll use them as a basis. Now, still going with the Revolutionaries. The loyalists have the Aquila and "Fedelitas Constantus", the insurrectionists the Madrigal Star and "Excommunicatio Traitoris". What have we? Still Excommunicatio, as the specifics don't matter to the Imperium? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphariusOmegon108 Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Excommunicatio Rengidia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Perils Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Oooh, gene-chimeras! That sounds nice ! Anyway, I haven't done much here for a pretty long time (sorry for that, just not getting any input whatsoever for the councils was a bit of a downer ) But a little spot for the navigators and a little campaign in the paternoval palace, with some other bits, like rules for navigators of different levels as well as the Iron Bears contingent and a little secret formation could be nice... This little campaign wouldn't take place near the beginning, so this could be in the fourth or fifth book. simison 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 Is the Blood Crusade our version of the Shadow Crusade, as the Jackals were also heavily involved in it. They fought with the Eagle Warriors and Berserkers up until cadia, where they took off and fired upon the Eagle Warriors fleet. Yes, the Blood Crusade is our version of the Shadow Crusade, since this is where the Berserkers go full Khorne. Duly noted, I'll update the post. Apparently Retaliation will contain rules for gene-chimeras, and by the time we get to that point February will be long past, so I figure we'll use them as a basis. Now, still going with the Revolutionaries. The loyalists have the Aquila and "Fedelitas Constantus", the insurrectionists the Madrigal Star and "Excommunicatio Traitoris". What have we? Still Excommunicatio, as the specifics don't matter to the Imperium? It's an idea I had, but we'll see how it plays out. Well, the HH books are written like history tomes, written well after the events occurred. By that point, the Revolutionaries are back with the Imperium with the exception of the Jackels. I suggest a different designation. Perhaps 'Rebelles' to designate the weaker loyalty ties, but not Excommunicato, since both legions were eventually restored. Oooh, gene-chimeras! That sounds nice ! Anyway, I haven't done much here for a pretty long time (sorry for that, just not getting any input whatsoever for the councils was a bit of a downer ) But a little spot for the navigators and a little campaign in the paternoval palace, with some other bits, like rules for navigators of different levels as well as the Iron Bears contingent and a little secret formation could be nice... This little campaign wouldn't take place near the beginning, so this could be in the fourth or fifth book. It's okay, a lot of us have been busy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts