General Discussion

[simison]

Okay, there are two major ideas that need addressing, and I'm going to try to at least get one in my short break.

 

 

I wanted to pose a question with a premise. See I was thinking about Marriage as a political tool, commonly used in Aristocracies and nobilities. Well what about the Imperium, because that ran me into an interesting quandary. The Three Fires sub sector is chalk full of Nobel houses, knight houses, Tribes, Clans, Titan legions, and other old archaic forms of Imperial society. But with the caveat of when an Iron Bear ascends he often becomes head of his House, Tribe, or Clan (unless multiple ranking Astartes are from there already) so what if he was Married off as a political move to strengthen the tribe with another house or something? I know we don't ever mention it because of the old warrior monk thing, but this is a different universe. So I wanted to get your thoughts, I'd sort of like to bring it in as a bit of background intrigue for some of my Bears, but if people were disgusted by it I'll leave it be.

 

Redd, there are some interesting story ideas here, but I have some concerns. One, while, yes, most marriages before the Industrial Revolution were primarily for economic and/or political gain, part of that deal was the promise of children. So, tied to your question is another question: are space marines fertile? As far as I know, GW has sidestepped that question by the emphasis of psychological manipulation and the all-encompassing duty to fight in war. 

[Doctor Perils]

Okay, there are two major ideas that need addressing, and I'm going to try to at least get one in my short break.

 

 

I wanted to pose a question with a premise. See I was thinking about Marriage as a political tool, commonly used in Aristocracies and nobilities. Well what about the Imperium, because that ran me into an interesting quandary. The Three Fires sub sector is chalk full of Nobel houses, knight houses, Tribes, Clans, Titan legions, and other old archaic forms of Imperial society. But with the caveat of when an Iron Bear ascends he often becomes head of his House, Tribe, or Clan (unless multiple ranking Astartes are from there already) so what if he was Married off as a political move to strengthen the tribe with another house or something? I know we don't ever mention it because of the old warrior monk thing, but this is a different universe. So I wanted to get your thoughts, I'd sort of like to bring it in as a bit of background intrigue for some of my Bears, but if people were disgusted by it I'll leave it be.

 

Redd, there are some interesting story ideas here, but I have some concerns. One, while, yes, most marriages before the Industrial Revolution were primarily for economic and/or political gain, part of that deal was the promise of children. So, tied to your question is another question: are space marines fertile? As far as I know, GW has sidestepped that question by the emphasis of psychological manipulation and the all-encompassing duty to fight in war. 

I've always considered that Space Marines were infertile. However, that shouldn't stop you (Redd) from running with this idea, as it could be quite interesting. The marriages need not be to marines (as political marriages weren't necessarily with the head of a family), but there could be some interesting interactions between a Marine and his "wife": when at peace, the wife would essentially act as his manservant; however, his wife would manage his affairs while he was away during the crusade.

 

I would keep this to a maximum of one legion though.

[Chief Captain Redd]

Okay, there are two major ideas that need addressing, and I'm going to try to at least get one in my short break.

 

 

 

Redd, there are some interesting story ideas here, but I have some concerns. One, while, yes, most marriages before the Industrial Revolution were primarily for economic and/or political gain, part of that deal was the promise of children. So, tied to your question is another question: are space marines fertile? As far as I know, GW has sidestepped that question by the emphasis of psychological manipulation and the all-encompassing duty to fight in war.

I did think about that quite a bit actually, so if we leave that the Astartes creation process leaves a man sterile, what if when an Aspirant is selected as say a teenager, a genetic sample is taken and cryogenically stored, with the possibility of being implanted into the Marine's future wife via in vitro fertilization. Which would not only extend the noble family lines, but also hopefully create more viable Astartes candidates.

[simison]

The other major topic is the tension between canon and BotL-verse. I understand the desire to create a whole new cast and to go so far as to say your legion has no canon -influence whatsoever. That is a personal choice and will be respected. At the same time, so long as it's not too large of a role, I don't mind canon characters showing up in BotL or having stories written about them. In this case, I don't mind Khârn being a Knight-Errant, so long as he's not the Knight-Errant like how Garro is. So far, I've not seen any of the canon characters be given too large a role to threaten our own independence. 

[Sigismund229]

First Pionius&Hec having their sisters to help them with managing stuff now Daer'dd getting daughters in law and grandkids...and I thought the christmases couldn't get worse...

[bluntblade]

Or that, either way it's a useful source of warm bodies to throw at the rest of the Galaxy.

But that doesn't mean that they'll be friendly to another Empire which just rocks up asking for/demanding fealty. Especially with Raktra doing the demanding.

 

We've had Alex successfully negotiate with the Interex, let's turn something else on its head. And I wanna have some fun with blood and snow.

Edited March 2, 2016 by bluntblade

[Skalpynock]

 

Or that, either way it's a useful source of warm bodies to throw at the rest of the Galaxy.

But that doesn't mean that they'll be friendly to another Empire which just rocks up asking for/demanding fealty. Especially with Raktra doing the demanding.

 

We've had Alex successfully negotiate with the Interex, let's turn something else on its head. And I wanna have some fun with blood and snow.

 

Inwit is pretty close to Terra though. Maybe an occasion for the Shepherds of Eden to shine?

[Slips]

Remember, the Inwit area only became an Empire because of Dorn alongside with his recovering of the Phalanx.

 

So without him, its possibly that they would have remained as a Single Planet not doing much of anything.

[Skalpynock]

Remember, the Inwit area only became an Empire because of Dorn alongside with his recovering of the Phalanx.

 

So without him, its possibly that they would have remained as a Single Planet not doing much of anything.

I'll have to re-read this part in book III, but I seem to recall them being one of the rare multi-planet empires before Dorn even came.

[bluntblade]

 

Remember, the Inwit area only became an Empire because of Dorn alongside with his recovering of the Phalanx.

 

So without him, its possibly that they would have remained as a Single Planet not doing much of anything.

 

I'll have to re-read this part in book III, but I seem to recall them being one of the rare multi-planet empires before Dorn even came.

This is what I remember reading. But look at it this way; the Inwit were space-faring people before Dorn's arrival. So, given a century or so, it's quite plausible for them to colonise nearby worlds even without him.

[Slips]

Hmm, it's also possible that I'm misremembering details too but I seem to recall that Dorns the one who made the Inwit system what it is prior to the Emperors arrival. However, I don't seem to remember them being Space Faring before Dorns Arrival or if they were, it was only within their own Solar System.

[Athrawes]

 Space marines shouldnt have children, and if the chemicals and gene treatments that turn them into Astartest doesn't make them completely infertile, I'm almost certain that they their DNA would be genetically incompatible with unmodified humans. There would be incompatibilities lethal to any potential embryo in pretty much every case.

 

I'm not intending this as an attack, but space marines having children is one of those things that if I read it in a homebrew fluff or index astartes article, thats where I stop reading, mark the article as a lost cause and move on to something else. 

[Slips]

I'm agreeing with the No Astartes Fathering Children Stance.

 

If the Astartes in Question still maintains ties to his un-modified Family pre-elevation, then cool, use them.

 

But that kind of Practice would only be limited to recruits who come from worlds where this is a practice; it would not be Legion Doctrine.

 

Same with the Primarchs or at least mine. Pionus may have a sister through his Adoptive family but shes on the Front Lines with the bulk of the Legion. Not on Iona being a Dainty Damsel in Distressed Destined to get married off to the highest bidder.

 

No. She has wars to fight/oversee, Marines to heal, specimens to collect, Subordinates to Instruct and put in their place and the Health of the Primarch to look after (pre and post wraithing).

 

She ain't got no time or inclination to produce children and Pionus frankly doesnt give a damn since he's the Head Honcho of Iona and all its Vassals so he wouldn't gain anything from marrying her off anyways especially since he could use his status as Primarch to get his way in any scenario.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Slipstreams

[simison]

Alright, that's a firm no on the fertility question. 

 

Sigi, you mentioned how you've heard of celibate, political marriages. Now, I've heard of loveless ones, but never celibate. Can you give me a couple of examples?

[Sigismund229]

Edward the Confessor marrying Ædyth daughter of Godwin, Earl of Wessex is one.

Knights Templar who were already married when they joined the order are another example. They were still allowed to join the order(with their wife's permission) but had to still take the oath of celibacy.

Edward of Lancaster, Prince of Wales and Duke of Cornwall(from 1453 until 1461 and then again from 1471 until 1473 if memory serves) and Anne Neville, daughter of Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick&Salisbury, otherwise known as Warwick the Kingmaker.

They're rare but they do happen.

 

@Slips, sounds like Hec's two adoptive sisters. One is a general of the Arpine Auxilia, the other is Hec's representative on matter in the empire of Mycenae when he's too busy busting heads on the frontlines to deal with it

Edited March 2, 2016 by Sigismund229

[Raktra]

There's a thing, are any marines ever shown reminiscing about their past lives or ever re-contacting their human families? Trying to figure out how one would break a Marine on the emotional level.

 

And in case anyone says it, Rafen and Arkio don't count, that was an abominable pair of books.

[Demus Ragnok]

There's a thing, are any marines ever shown reminiscing about their past lives or ever re-contacting their human families? Trying to figure out how one would break a Marine on the emotional level.

And in case anyone says it, Rafen and Arkio don't count, that was an abominable pair of books.

Argel Tal remembers meeting Erebus as a boy. And remembers his mother. That's in The First Heretic.

[Nomus Sardauk]

The Salamanders in the canon are said to frequently walk amongst and interact with the people of Nocturne, so it stands to reason that would include their mortal families,

 

Really though I think it depends on the marine and the Legion's/Chapter's views on such things, do they remember much of their mortal lives post-augmentation? Do they even care to remember? Does their Legion/Chapter have a positive or negative view about the mortals they're supposed to protect? Are marines allowed to visit their homeworld when in-system? So many factors to consider...

[Hesh Kadesh]

There are Night Lords IIRC who remember going back to visit Nostramo, although which book (i think it was ADB's series, rather than a Heresy) i cannot remember.

[Doctor Perils]

There are Night Lords IIRC who remember going back to visit Nostramo, although which book (i think it was ADB's series, rather than a Heresy) i cannot remember.

I think sevatar is said to have found his old family in Prince of crows, but he doesn't feel any emotions

[Sigismund229]

AO has given me permission to re write the EW fluff to make them less...chaos oriented? And their fall more gradual and less instantaneous. Am I going in the right direction or does it still need fine tuning?(please bear in mind this is just the beginning of a draft so the writing may not be of my usual standard)

 

(name to be inserted)
While the XIII legion had been united with their primarch, his arrival did nothing to improve morale amongst the Eagle Warriors, in fact quite the opposite. Within weeks, it became clear to them that, far from being a warriors of legend or a great general, their primarch was a broken man, little more than a figurehead. However, for a time, a spirit of optimism prevailed. Surely, if the Eagle Warriors broke themselves over the anvil of religion as their primarch had been broken, they could find some form of understanding for the man they were told was their father. So it was that the Eagle Warriors began to adorn their armour with symbols of their new homeworld's faith and to conduct intense study of it. They even set up the 13 lodges, with each one being devoted to different facet of warfare as their primarch's religion had been divided into 13 aspects. However, while the Terrans stayed optimistic, the new recruits from Mexicatii were as broken as their primarch. The Emperor's arrival had broken the power of Mexicatii's priesthood's, broken their faith and obliterated the one element which had bound the Mexicatan together. They were demoralized and their once proud culture now had to live in a secret world of objects that could be easily disguised or hidden, a small gold pendant here, a Mexicatan glyph signifying one of the gods there. These items were symbols, symbols of the religion and Mexicatan pride that had been so badly broken by the Imperium's arrival on Mexicatii. While none knew it at the time, it was this sense of wounded pride that led the Eagle Warriors down the path to corruption and betrayal. 

As the years passed, the sense of optimism that had presided within the Eagle Warriors faded, as it became clear that their primarch was deffinitavely shattered, reduced to but a shadow of what he had once been. They were the legion of a broken man, the only primarch to have failed the Emperor and therefore, they too must be in some way flawed. It was this which sparked the XIII's dabbling with gene tech, the desperate need to find their flaw, however well hidden it was, and eliminate it. However, within the first few years of experimenting with gene seed, the Eagle Warriors decided that to just correct their gene seed in the laboratory was not enough. In order to find the true flaw, they must fight in the harshest war zones they could find, truly test their limits and so find their defect, for it would surely reveal itself in battle. So the Eagle Warriors entered into a self imposed exile, fighting on the fringes of the galaxy and in the harshest warzones and seeking to adapt their bodies accordingly. 

However, these years would change the Eagle Warriors profoundly. As casualties mounted and their efforts went unacknowledged by all others, bitterness within the legion grew, particularly amongst the Mexicatan. First the Emperor had broken the soul of their world and now, now that they had sacrificed thousands of brothers on the alter of his Great Crusade, he chose to ignore them, letting other, less worthy legions take the credit for victories won with the blood of Eagle Warriors. With the new recruits from Mexicatii now being murdurers and rapists, theives and gangers, the strongest of the individuals who now inhabited the heavily industrialized world, this anger only grew, coming to dominate the legion's mindset. Where before, amongst Mexicatii's noble warriors, who had constituted the legion's first Mexicatan recruits, it had been seen as a righteous test of strength, now it was merely a place to glory in your power and the slaughter you could wreak.

[Nomus Sardauk]

I like it! This feels like a much more natural and believable chain of events, the sins of the father driving his sons to heresy in their desperation to "fix" themselves and become worthy of the Emperor's love again, excellent stuff. :)

[MikhalLeNoir]

Yup. One question: we had it, that travier was amongst those who found Gwal and as he ripped Gwals mask off his soul was stolen from him, but thx to big e, he was saved. Gwal had bad feelings because of that and so he tried to repay travier. Because of that the switching teacher pupil and lager friends relation. The question would be: if Travier is broken and under special surveillance from the emperor, when they met Gwal, would he still be angered and rip the mask of that ignorant fool? Or how do we built that in?i can see gwal comfort travier and building him up. Would that be before or after they meddle in gene affairs? I could see travier high spirited when they parted but soon fall back in his old broken ways.

[simison]

Edward the Confessor marrying Ædyth daughter of Godwin, Earl of Wessex is one.

Knights Templar who were already married when they joined the order are another example. They were still allowed to join the order(with their wife's permission) but had to still take the oath of celibacy.

Edward of Lancaster, Prince of Wales and Duke of Cornwall(from 1453 until 1461 and then again from 1471 until 1473 if memory serves) and Anne Neville, daughter of Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick&Salisbury, otherwise known as Warwick the Kingmaker.

They're rare but they do happen.

 

@Slips, sounds like Hec's two adoptive sisters. One is a general of the Arpine Auxilia, the other is Hec's representative on matter in the empire of Mycenae when he's too busy busting heads on the frontlines to deal with it

 

Alright. So, in theory, these Iron Bear marriages would essentially be high prestige but comes with several costs. One, no offspring, which means there would be absolutely no chance of that title passing from Iron Bear back to the noble family at least, and, at worst, they are essentially losing a daughter with no possible future payoff. Two, there is going to be an emotional toll on some of these women since they are being denied a chance to have their own family. It might be higher or lower depending on the woman, but it'll be there unless they're infertile to begin with. Even then, having a husband who's barely human and most likely far away from home fighting in the Emperor's name is another strain on her. There are some ways to mitigate the emotional stress though.

 

Anyway, these are some of the thoughts I have. I'm not against this idea and think it could offer some interesting storylines. So far, it doesn't sound anyone has had a violent reaction to the idea either. Did you have anything developed beyond the basic idea, Redd?

[Sigismund229]

Perhaps Travier gets attacked by Gwal, who later realises his mistake when the big E shows up and tries to make amends?