Spiral Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I'm not really sure which Legion I want to start. I looked in the Tactica threads but those weren't exceptionally useful for either force so I figured I'd ask here. Which Legion would you reccommend starting? How do their special rules, units and primarchs add up? I typically play a "foot slogger" list because I'm not a huge fan of transports, but I'm planning at least some Dreadnoughts and a Spartan hopefully. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Sons of Horus then with Pride of the Legion. Reavers and Justaerin are worthless, whereas Horus is still the best primarch in simulations. iirc, Guillman is a close second. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Sons of horus are better with experience, but for newcomers, especially those with SM experience who will find the legiones fragility worrying. Reavers are some of the best units in the game in large bodies. Invictarus Suzerains, and Fulmentarus are right up there and easier to use. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Sons of Horus... mainly because there's not as many people playing them. They do require a bit more finesse, but their Legion Traits are really good, their Rite of War lends itself well to their "Tip of the Spear" approach to battle, and when they tarpit the enemy, anything else that falls in on their prey will hit like a freight train. The Legion kind of requires you to take a lot of fast hitting options like Assault Marines, Reavers, Jetbikes, Storm Eagles, etc... and their paint scheme isn't exactly easy, but if done correctly they pay off both on the board and in the display case. IMO, they have the best Legion upgrade kits as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna707 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 The cool thing about Forge World's Horus Heresy series is that each of the legions can be played well. While there are one or two legions that outshine the others, they are actually rather well balanced. I think that is really cool because you can choose a legion based on their fluff and tactics instead of just the fact that one is way better than the others (unlike in 40k where a few codices are just strait up better than all the rest). For a footslogging army I would definitely say Ultramarines as interlocking tactics coupled with their unmodified leadership 10 for regrouping works really well with a bunch of tactical squads. Their rite of war also allows infantry and dreadnoughts to have counter attack which again buffs a footslogging army. The ultramarine special units are really good as well (the suzerains are stupid expensive in real money though and would probably have a hard time in a transport-less army as they would be a top priority for your opponent). The Ultra primarch is also one of the best and a steal for his point cost. The Sons of Horus are of course an excellent legion as well however they are more focused on fast attack than just strait footslogging. I don't find the SoH' rite or special rules very compelling but they do have cool war gear and can make a pretty awesome terminator heavy army with Abaddon and Orbital Assault which couples nicely with their special rule that allows for the re-roll of 1s on the reserve roll (Justaerins cost way too much however). In the end I would say Ultramarines but its really up to which legion you like more in terms of its fluff and paint scheme. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I would say Ultramarines. And I say this honestly as I actually collect both! The Ultras have better rules, unique units and are a great looking force on the tabletop. Remember the XIII Legion is very different to the 40k chapter. The Sons of Horus, Primarch and lovely paint scheme aside, leave something to be desired... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegriss Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 what do you care more a out table top performance or rule of cool Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 what do you care more a out table top performance or rule of cool Well, rule of cool doesn't necessarily point towards SoH. The greko-roman theme is more prevalent in 30k Ultras, and their look is one of the most impressive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegriss Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 well that an opinion thing and spiral will have to make that call on his own based on his aesthetic likes and dislikes. Also do you wanna go traitor or loyalist and what kind of characters do you like in some ways the 2 legions in question can be very similar or almost opposite based on how you see them and when in the 30k time line you wanna base them. For me it comes down to what I enjoy painting and modeling that comes first as I spent way more time painting then playing (and crusading knights in space is the bomb) to me the Roman greeko ultramarine thing is great forge world really slammed it out of the park on 30k ultra's but the SoH look amazaballs and are more interesting in my humble opinion but wait around a bit everyone here loves to weight in on these kinds of topics Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Here is a little summary of what I've taken from various posts/ articles/ rules reading - personally it can somewhat be boiled down to Ultras being a little more shooty and Sons of Horus being a bit more melee: Ultramarines bonuses are geared toward shooting, with rerolling 1's on units another part of your army has fired at, gaining overwatch at BS2 is not moved or counterattack (meaning you want to be charged etc). This makes the ultras a close ranged shooting army, focused on supporting eachother to eliminate enemy units as and when required, taking apart your opponent slowly while being able to deal efficiently with anything they throw at you with your options. Just like in the fluff. Sons of Horus on the other hand, all get rage if they charge a unit locked into combat with a friendly SoH unit, meaning you'll then dominate the target. They also get another extra attack each at the I1 fight step (assuming they aren't already I1 from a power fist/ axe/ unwieldy) if they outnumber the opponent. They also have impeccably reliably reserves, being about 28% more likely to come on when you want and the infantry gain fleet if they do. This makes the Sons of Horus an all or nothing army. You take your big squads and bully the opponent, aiming for their softest part of the line and crushing it entirely, bringing on a perfectly timed second wave to crush them even further in an overwhelming assault. Just like in the fluff. In terms of special units, sadly, the Ultras have a bit more going for them with thier sweet super boarder, mad cyclone missile terminators and rad double tapping assault marines. Units for all types of play styles. The Sons of Horus suffer with a VASTLY over costed legion specific terminator squad, the Justaerin (they have a tax of almost 100 points on them) and actually don't have much going for them other than WS5 and being able to issue challenges. They can uniquely take a Multi-Melta, but all the big targets in HH have Armoured Ceramite... Thier other unit are Reaver Squads, Vets (so 2 Attacks) with CCW options, outflank and precision strikes/ shots. Pretty nifty, they'll beat up a lot and take out the special guys. As stated by others, on the Primarch side of things; Horus is and probably always will be King. Guilliman is very strong too though, one of the stronger Primarchs for sure. Horus provides untold buffs to the army (+1 Ld, anything can outflank, 4+ sieze, on point deepstriking, termies and vets as troops + a kick ass Orbital strike) and will kill anything you throw him at bar maybe some kitted out Fire Drakes, but even then.... Guillimans buffs are a little stranger, re-rolling charges, immunity to concussive and buffing a single type of unit in your army, for example all tactical squads gain Implacable Advance, Tank Hunter or Interceptor USR and forces enemy to re-roll successful seize. Guilliman will also kill pretty much anything (bar Horus!) Hope this helps! I would say Ultramarines.And I say this honestly as I actually collect both!The Ultras have better rules, unique units and are a great looking force on the tabletop. Remember the XIII Legion is very different to the 40k chapter.The Sons of Horus, Primarch and lovely paint scheme aside, leave something to be desired... what do you care more a out table top performance or rule of cool Well, rule of cool doesn't necessarily point towards SoH. The greko-roman theme is more prevalent in 30k Ultras, and their look is one of the most impressive. Said the Ultramarine player ;) Personally while I like the roman stuff, I find it better as a prevailing theme across all the legions in a more diluted form. The Sons are awesome with their spikes and top knots though, brutal loyalists, which is ace. Different strokes and all that though! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Kage Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 On looks alone, I'd say SoH because I think they have some of the best looking models in the Heresy range, with Reavers and their Contemptor being at the top of the SoH figures. The Ultras are too glitzy for me, and too much of a reminder of the 40k shenanigans I happily left behind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 On looks alone, I'd say SoH because I think they have some of the best looking models in the Heresy range, with Reavers and their Contemptor being at the top of the SoH figures. The Ultras are too glitzy for me, and too much of a reminder of the 40k shenanigans I happily left behind. I disagree on the SoH having some of the best units. I think their armor upgrade looks almost ridiculous and the contempt or leaves much to be desired. To OP question...go Luna Wolves! Best of both worlds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I still see 40K Ultramarines, but I'm more impressed by their 30K background and whatnot, really gives me a change of heart. Although the power level Guilliman was put at compared to other Primarchs does leave me irked. Edit: Luna Wolves are a cool alternative, good call Remus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I still see 40K Ultramarines, but I'm more impressed by their 30K background and whatnot, really gives me a change of heart. Although the power level Guilliman was put at compared to other Primarchs does leave me irked. Edit: Luna Wolves are a cool alternative, good call Remus. Yeah i think Luna wolves would be neat. Hardly see them, and gives a good blend of both SoH and the ultras. Also, do you feel Guilliman is too strong or not strong enough? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Too strong... way too strong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 In the mythos Guilliman is held in incredibly high regard. In reality, no one can question his vision. Many ignore the fact that for all of his talents, war is his greatest one... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Yeah, that's great and all but there's no way he should manhandle the other warrior Primarchs, especially Angron, considering he tore Guilliman a new one on Nurcene and would have killed him if not for Lorgar's intervention. I'm hoping FW will update the rules for the older Primarchs to bring them more in line with the newer ones (which I heard a rumor they were thinking about it). I think we're getting way off base for the subject at hand. Perhaps we can start another topic discussing Primarch power levels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Perhaps. Remember that Angron would be far more effective at killing off units of general infantry than Guilliman. It makes sense, one is an impressive duelist, the other a raging berzerker. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 He's just a little undercosted. I feel like if he was 425-435 points people would still gladly run him and never have questioned the points cost, but at 400 his cost is almost insulting when you look at some of the other Primarchs between 375-425. His abilities and stat-line feel characterful and appropriate though. On topic, I'd say Sons of Horus, mostly because the aesthetic FW has given them appeals to me way more than the Ultras (who are still admittedly very cool). None of that loyalist Luna Wolves nonsense, embrace the spikes, angles and serpent eyes! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Yeah, that's great and all but there's no way he should manhandle the other warrior Primarchs, especially Angron, considering he tore Guilliman a new one on Nurcene and would have killed him if not for Lorgar's intervention. I'm hoping FW will update the rules for the older Primarchs to bring them more in line with the newer ones (which I heard a rumor they were thinking about it). I think we're getting way off base for the subject at hand. Perhaps we can start another topic discussing Primarch power levels. Please make this topic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Yeah, that's great and all but there's no way he should manhandle the other warrior Primarchs, especially Angron, considering he tore Guilliman a new one on Nurcene and would have killed him if not for Lorgar's intervention. I'm hoping FW will update the rules for the older Primarchs to bring them more in line with the newer ones (which I heard a rumor they were thinking about it). I think we're getting way off base for the subject at hand. Perhaps we can start another topic discussing Primarch power levels. Please make this topic. It shall be done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Kage Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 I disagree on the SoH having some of the best units. I think their armor upgrade looks almost ridiculous and the contemptor leaves much to be desired. Well of course you disagree; you're an Ultramarine fan to the bone. The thing I like about the SoH figures is that there was no equivalent in 40k to draw from when FW started up their Heresy project, because the Black Legion was always portrayed as the generic or vanilla Chaos marine faction and had no real unique look to them apart from their paint scheme and possibly an abundance of top knots, so Forgeworld had to create their entire Cthonian aesthetic from scratch. I'm of the opinion that they did an incredible job with it. The Reavers in particular are some of my favorite figures in the entire Heresy range. http://i.imgur.com/m7dZoeP.png http://i.imgur.com/MK8vSvL.png What's left to be desired from this glorious beast? http://i.imgur.com/s4sZIBx.png What do we get from the Ultramarine models? Stuff that could easily have come straight out of the 40k line. Oh look, they recycled Calgar's Honor Guard and gave them some ridiculously over decorated shields. Awesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegriss Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 I agree if I ever start another heresy army it will he SoH and probably a reaver company they look amazing and they play really exciting not really balanced but in small skirmish style games they are really fun and charactfull Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 I disagree on the SoH having some of the best units. I think their armor upgrade looks almost ridiculous and the contemptor leaves much to be desired. Well of course you disagree; you're an Ultramarine fan to the bone. The thing I like about the SoH figures is that there was no equivalent in 40k to draw from when FW started up their Heresy project, because the Black Legion was always portrayed as the generic or vanilla Chaos marine faction and had no real unique look to them apart from their paint scheme and possibly an abundance of top knots, so Forgeworld had to create their entire Cthonian aesthetic from scratch. I'm of the opinion that they did an incredible job with it. The Reavers in particular are some of my favorite figures in the entire Heresy range. http://i.imgur.com/m7dZoeP.png http://i.imgur.com/MK8vSvL.png What's left to be desired from this glorious beast? http://i.imgur.com/s4sZIBx.png What do we get from the Ultramarine models? Stuff that could easily have come straight out of the 40k line. Oh look, they recycled Calgar's Honor Guard and gave them some ridiculously over decorated shields. Awesome. You know me well ;) The reavers are nice, ill give you that, but these: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/large/soh-heads.jpg are not that nice imo. As far as the ultramarines are concerned, I (obviously) disagree that they could have come out of the 40k line. The invictarii and praetor armor are very flavorfull and new, while the suzies are 1000x better then any honor guard in 40k. I mean, obviously there will be some similarities, every legion will have those to their 40k counterpart, but the praetor armor is one of the more unique armor of the HH time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 I'll agree that the Sons of Horus Contemptor is beautiful. I own one ;-) The SoH models are a bit hit and miss. Reavers are great, the upgrade kits are pretty underwhelming. Imo, Death Guard generally have the best looking infantry models... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312035-ultramarines-or-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4139949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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