Primarch Power Levels

[DuskRaider]

As requested, this thread is to discuss the Primarch power levels between one another and perhaps rules or points fixes to alleviate any issues currently seen.

 

A few I've noticed:

Guilliman seems to be way too much for his points, or perhaps just in general compared to his brethren. He was not a warrior in the likes of Fulgrim, Angron, or Mortarion and yet he more or less wipes the floor with them. This may be due to his special abilities, but I feel FW may have went a little too far with him, especially when the only Primarch that will reliably bring him to pound town is Horus and he's a whopping 500 pts.

 

On the topic of Angron: I feel perhaps FW went a little TOO conservative when releasing the first Primarchs (barring Horus), and Angron seems to be a great example of this. This is the only guy, aside from the Warmaster himself, that can go toe-to-toe with Sanguinius, but he's extremely lackluster in terms of rules. I know this has been brought up before, but I'm hoping sometime in the near future we'll see the first Primarchs brought more in line with their newer brethren.

 

The only other one is Mortarion. IMO, Unwieldy should probably be removed from Silence. Other than that he's pretty good.

[Joe]

I doubt we'll see the likes of Magnus ever reflect his fluff to be honest. For the second most powerful psyker in the Imperium that'd be ridiculous.

 

I mean, just look at Malcador, he wasn't even fazed by the Sisters of Silence, and his psychic abilities weren't suffering on account of their presence. Just imagine the headache that'll give FW. :p

 

I do agree the older Primarchs need some love, though. Maybe in Shattered Legions?

[Remus Ventanus.]

I was under the impression that guilliman was a middle of the road primarch in terms of 1 on 1 fighting. I suppose lore wise it makes sense that he is good 1 on 1 (obviously not to the likes of angron.) 

[Kriegriss]

I don't feel older primarchs need love I feel newer ones need toned down I don't like single units that are so powerfull that they require little stratagey to successfully deploy the older primarch where strong but you couldn't just be like "here is my primarch in my spartan full of terminators so gg I win" I mean you could buyt it was less guaranteed to work

[Ishagu]

I was under the impression that guilliman was a middle of the road primarch in terms of 1 on 1 fighting. I suppose lore wise it makes sense that he is good 1 on 1 (obviously not to the likes of angron.)

Guilliman, rules wise, is probably the second best after Horus due to his resilience, impressive Weapons and increasing WS. Primarch battles are all about attrition which Guilliman excells in...

 

I'm really excited to see the Lion finally get some rules. He was supposed to be a master tactician and unparalleled swordsman.

I don't really think Russ will surprise us, probably a bearded man with a giant Axe.

 

Magnus is an intriguing prospect. Psychic powers are lacking in 30k generally so I wonder how good he'll be...

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

I was under the impression that guilliman was a middle of the road primarch in terms of 1 on 1 fighting. I suppose lore wise it makes sense that he is good 1 on 1 (obviously not to the likes of angron.)

Guilliman, rules wise, is probably the second best after Horus due to his resilience, effective Weapons and growing weapon skill.

 

I'm really excited to see the Lion finally get some rules. He was supposed to be a master tactician and unparalleled swordsman.

I don't really think Russ will surprise us, probably a bearded man with a giant Axe.

 

Magnus is an intriguing prospect. Psychic powers are lacking in 30k generally so I wonder how good he'll be...

 

ah ok. I dont have the other primarchs rules so just going by what i have heard.

[DuskRaider]

Guilliman SHOULD be middle of the road combat wise, but top tier as far as army buffs. Unfortunately, FW kinda screwed the pooch on that one.

[Remus Ventanus.]

It's funny how in the black library novels, guilliman has been shown to be fairly weak on multiple occasions

[DuskRaider]

I wouldn't necessarily call him weak, per say... but one time he was going against Angron, and almost no one is going to go toe-to-toe with him (not even Russ). Another time he was chasing the Haunter in his element, so that's more expected as well.

[Remus Ventanus.]

But he got wrecked by kor, not even a full astartes, bested by curze in 1on1, and badly injured by 10 measly astartes, while lorgar survives a Titans plasma cannon, and horus survives a Knights wrath by some daemon magic

[Slips]

But he got wrecked by kor, not even a full astartes, bested by curze in 1on1, and badly injured by 10 measly astartes, while lorgar survives a Titans plasma cannon, and horus survives a Knights wrath by some daemon magic

The last two can be attributed to "Warp Shenanigans" while the others demonstrate why people might have a problem with Robute being able take on any non-Horus Primarch without breaking a sweat.

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

But he got wrecked by kor, not even a full astartes, bested by curze in 1on1, and badly injured by 10 measly astartes, while lorgar survives a Titans plasma cannon, and horus survives a Knights wrath by some daemon magic

 

The last two can be attributed to "Warp Shenanigans" while the others demonstrate why people might have a problem with Robute being able take on any non-Horus Primarch without breaking a sweat.

That's the thing, which source is correct? The novels or FW.

[Slips]

That, opens up an entirely different can of worm that you see pop up around the entirety of the boards from time to time: What is Canon in GW Lore?

 

...best not get into it since a few people get really salty about the subject @_@

 

But, in the Same Vein, Robby G did survive combat in a 2v1 vs Angron and Lorgar so his Resilience, rules wise, is at least partially justified. His Combat Prowess? Not really, imo.

[DuskRaider]

Honestly, I see Guilliman's disadvantage against Curze more being because the Haunter was in his element, and also he's a madman... he's a scrappy brawler who has no sense of honor in a battle because it's a means to an end, whilst Guilliman is more or less the embodiment of honor. Rules wise (as is the subject at hand), he's way too OTT. I wouldn't say we need to tone down the existing Primarchs, because you know that won't happen. So the earlier ones are more likely to be boosted, which would be quite welcome. Angron SHOULD be able to rip any other Primarch apart (and go toe to toe with Horus), but his points cost will need to take a dramatic leap. Mortarion shouldn't have to swing his weapon at Initiative 1, he's a Primarch and has more than enough strength to throw Silence around with little effort. Fulgrim... actually, didn't Fulgrim recently get an update that made him more viable?

[Remus Ventanus.]

Honestly, I see Guilliman's disadvantage against Curze more being because the Haunter was in his element, and also he's a madman... he's a scrappy brawler who has no sense of honor in a battle because it's a means to an end, whilst Guilliman is more or less the embodiment of honor. Rules wise (as is the subject at hand), he's way too OTT. I wouldn't say we need to tone down the existing Primarchs, because you know that won't happen. So the earlier ones are more likely to be boosted, which would be quite welcome. Angron SHOULD be able to rip any other Primarch apart (and go toe to toe with Horus), but his points cost will need to take a dramatic leap. Mortarion shouldn't have to swing his weapon at Initiative 1, he's a Primarch and has more than enough strength to throw Silence around with little effort. Fulgrim... actually, didn't Fulgrim recently get an update that made him more viable?

To your first point, I do agree, but it was guilliman and the lion and the still lost the fight...

 

I'll reserve judgement on guilliman until more primarchs are out. I think his power is...perhaps a tad high, but more so I think Angron is just too low. I think fighting wise guilliman should be in the top 5-8, so we shall see how he is when the others are released

[Slips]

What I dont get is Unwieldy on Primarchs (Looking at you, Dorn and Mortarion...and Forgebreaker Perturabo, to an Extent).

 

Its fine for Robby G since he has two weapon profiles to chose from, though. But for Dorns Chainsword? And Mortarions Two-Handed Scythe? hmm especially when both Vulkan and Ferrus are swinging their S10 Thunderhammers at Initiative? Thats the only thing that truly Irks me about Primarchs.

[1000 Sons]

I think this is just the normal power creep that gw always does.  Part of me is drooling at how awesome Magnus and Russ are going to be.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

As requested, this thread is to discuss the Primarch power levels between one another and perhaps rules or points fixes to alleviate any issues currently seen.

 

A few I've noticed:

Guilliman seems to be way too much for his points, or perhaps just in general compared to his brethren. He was not a warrior in the likes of Fulgrim, Angron, or Mortarion and yet he more or less wipes the floor with them. This may be due to his special abilities, but I feel FW may have went a little too far with him, especially when the only Primarch that will reliably bring him to pound town is Horus and he's a whopping 500 pts.

 

On the topic of Angron: I feel perhaps FW went a little TOO conservative when releasing the first Primarchs (barring Horus), and Angron seems to be a great example of this. This is the only guy, aside from the Warmaster himself, that can go toe-to-toe with Sanguinius, but he's extremely lackluster in terms of rules. I know this has been brought up before, but I'm hoping sometime in the near future we'll see the first Primarchs brought more in line with their newer brethren.

 

The only other one is Mortarion. IMO, Unwieldy should probably be removed from Silence. Other than that he's pretty good.

1:I've rolled out and played Guilliman against the Primarchs you just mentioned. He lost every single one. The only one he came close to beating in statistics was Mortarion, assuming he uses his fist he is only .1 behind Mortarion in wounds dealt. Against Angron and Fulgrim he was even further behind.

2:How is Angron bad? He's dishing out 8 S9 attacks at WS9 on the charge rerolling to hit and follows up with 7 S8 attacks in following rounds. (And that's assuming all of the rules discrepancies in his profile work out against him) No other Primarch has that many attacks. The only one who comes close is Corax but his hits are S6. Angron statistically defeats every Primarch released so far except Horus with the Claw.

[Marshal Loss]

Yeah I agree with 1000 sons, I think it's just power creep. I do think that Guilliman is too good in Primarch on Primarch fights.

 

That isn't to say that FW are writing bad rules, far from it - I just think that when you're writing rules over a period of years, what feels strong (and thus receives a high points cost one year) may not feel so strong 3 years down the line. These sorts of things naturally happen.

 

Whether FW are prepared to rebalance things like Primarchs (and more importantly to me, Legion specific units e.g. Justaerin/Phoenix Guard etc, but there are also many ) on a big scale remains to be seen, and I guess we'll find out for sure when they release their next version of the red book for the Legions.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think people are focusing on primarch vs primarch too much when the thread simply asks about power levels. While dueling each other is important, their buffs to the army and their versatility on the table should also be important.

 

Horus, Perty, Alpharius and guilliman (depending on list and selection) are the best at buffing through being bought

 

Corax, Curze and mortarion are the most maneuverable 

 

Angron, guilliman, Lorgar and fulgrim are the best duelists

 

Lorgar and Corax are the most tactical  in use

 

Ferrus and Vulkan are the best at zone control

[Ishagu]

Going back to black library, the books are really inconsistent.

I don't think we should be using the BL books as any kind of measurement as the Primarchs are only as strong as the story requires them to be at any one point.

 

It is mentioned in Know No Fear, that only 4 of his brothers *might* be a match for Guilliman but the source of that is questionable.

 

In the Unremembered Empire, Guilliman is shown to be quite weak... But in that book the Lion is also shown to be weak even though it's common knowledge that he can go toe to toe with Leman Russ.

 

The same inconsistencies are found throughout black library books in both 30 and 40k.

Eg: In the Iron Snakes novels, 5 Space Marines take out an entire Dark Eldar cabal, and are almost impervious to all the advanced Weapons the Xenos posses.

Alternatively, in a Gaunt's Ghosts novel written by the SAME author, Imperial Guard were taking out Chaos Space Marines in droves with a single shot from their LAS GUNS!

 

These are absolutely huge disparities, which is why I've always said that the codex and rule books should be considered as the only accurate source of fluff. The various BL books are simply telling a story...

 

As for Guilliman being too strong on the tabletop, I don't believe he is.

Duelling a Primarch is only one aspect of his rules. Corax and Mortarion are more useful in varying situations due to their mobility, Angron would actually be a more impressive combatant in every situation other than a 1v1 with Guilliman due to all the extra attacks he has, Vulkan is a lot more resilient to shooting and so on...

[Daemon2027]

But a lot of the info in the Forge World books are presented as an in universe opinion. We don't know who is writing this background or when but it appears likely he is writing post heresy. So when a Forge World book says Primarch A is stronger then Primarch B its still only an opinion.

[Ishagu]

But a lot of the info in the Forge World books are presented as an in universe opinion. We don't know who is writing this background or when but it appears likely he is writing post heresy. So when a Forge World book says Primarch A is stronger then Primarch B its still only an opinion.

That is true, and I actually said in another topic that only the 40k codecies should be taken as Canon as they describe Marines very differently from the FW books...

 

But like I said, the power levels of everything in any GW book is so all-over the place we can't get hung up on it.

Guilliman was written poorly in a few books and people took them to be gospel and expected him to be weak. The most recent BL library book that focused on him (Know no Fear) states that he's one of the strongest Primarchs which doesn't sit well with people who've already made up their mind.

What IS known about Guilliman is that he doesn't flaunt his strength, but he's also described as a collector of rare and esoteric duelling weapons so he definitely had a great interest in combat.

 

Frankly there are much greater inconsistencies to the fiction than the strength of the Primarchs.

[Slips]

As for Vulcans durability vs shooting, if its not Volkite, Plasma, Melta, Fusion, Flamer or other equivalent energy weapons, then yes, sure. Otherwise, the Strength value of those weapons being shot at him is Halved.

 

...S7 Plasma guns are S3, S6 volkite is S3, S8 Melta is S4, etc.

 

Some of the most efficient Primarch Killing Weapons are rendered all but useless. And, it means Vulkan can tank Titan-Grade Plasma Weapons since they're S9/10 meaning S4/5.

 

...yeah.

[Ishagu]

As for Vulcans durability vs shooting, if its not Volkite, Plasma, Melta, Fusion, Flamer or other equivalent energy weapons, then yes, sure. Otherwise, the Strength value of those weapons being shot at him is Halved.

 

...S7 Plasma guns are S3, S6 volkite is S3, S8 Melta is S4, etc.

 

Some of the most efficient Primarch Killing Weapons are rendered all but useless. And, it means Vulkan can tank Titan-Grade Plasma Weapons since they're S9/10 meaning S4/5.

 

...yeah.

Exactly! No one complains that Angron would probably go down to a single plasma support squad, where as Vulkan would only get tickled by their Weapons fire as he approaches.