Primarch Power Levels

[Daemon2027]

 

But a lot of the info in the Forge World books are presented as an in universe opinion. We don't know who is writing this background or when but it appears likely he is writing post heresy. So when a Forge World book says Primarch A is stronger then Primarch B its still only an opinion.

That is true, and I actually said in another topic that only the 40k codecies should be taken as Canon as they describe Marines very differently from the FW books...

 

But like I said, the power levels of everything in any GW book is so all-over the place we can't get hung up on it.

Guilliman was written poorly in a few books and people took them to be gospel and expected him to be weak. The most recent BL library book focused on him (Know no Fear) states that he's one of the strongest Primarchs which doesn't sit well with people who've already made up their mind.

What IS known about Guilliman is that he doesn't flaunt his strength, but he's also described as a collector of rare and esoteric duelling weapons so he definitely had a great interest in combat.

 

Frankly there are much greater inconsistencies to the fiction than the strength of the Primarchs.

I never got the impression Guilliman was weak, but I would imagine his strengths lay in his tactical ability and that he was an inspiring leader. Kor Phaeron had to aid of the gods, and that XXth legion group caught him off guard.

For an in universe character I imagine that his combat abilities may be a mystery. His ability to lead would have been well known, it is his legend as it were. Like Angron would have been known in the wider universe as a bezerker and unstopable in combat, the reality would be different. So when comments like Guiliman is weak, or is one of the strongest is made on a novel, I don't take it as gospel. Even the Primarch themskeve speculate who could defeat who in a fight.

[Jolemai]

Did Lorgar get improved in book five?

[Daemon2027]

Did Lorgar get improved in book five?

Thought he could just infuse himself with chaos and become better?

[Ishagu]

Did Lorgar get improved in book five?

No, and they took Invisibility away from him as he can no longer draw on powers from Telepathy.

Now in his transfigured state he can only chose powers from Telekinesis and Divination, although he's still hands down an amazing character and an awesome psyker.

You can use him for shenanigans like a str10 ap1 large blast with ignores cover.

He casts on a 3+ when transfigured, 5+ base.

[Balthamal]

Perhaps more effort should be made to define "power levels" are we talking in a purely close combat aspect or are we talking on the tabletop in general? As far as I can see a lot of the Primarchs are very evenly balanced or at the very least consistent with their portrayals elsewhere (like Horus being the "best" at least until Sanguinius gets some rules). Mortarion, Ferrus and Vulkan are incredibly durable whilst Angron, Corax and Curze are excellent up close. Gulliman and Perturabo provide great army buffing as expected too. The only ones I feel don't really stand up as they should are Fulgrim and Dorn but that's my own interpretation not any kind of mathhammered conclusion

 

On the subject of Gulliman and who he'd beat, Horus would take him, so would Angron and certainly Curze. I've seen a few comments stating he'd wreck Curze but remember Curze has hit and run, at I8. So no stacking WS, more HoW and always going first to lay some hurt on.

 

I don't so much think power creep is an issue with the Primarchs, to a certain extent with the Legion specific units yes (Justaerin Phoenix Terms, looking at you) yes but remember you've got 5 Primarchs (Horus, Angron, Fulgrim, Mortarion, Magnus) who are going to get more than one set of rules. It's far more likely that the Daemonic versions of those listed will be far superior to their old selves. Another thing to keep in mind is that of the Primarchs left to come, some (specifically Sanguinius, Russ, The Lion) have historically been presented in the older material as being amongst the most accomplished warriors so I see no reason why their rules shouldn't reflect that.

[Ishagu]

Remember that Curze's hit and run wouldn't work if he's concussed to initiative 1.

Guilliman would certainly use his power fist to negate things like hit and run from Corax and Curze or Fulgrim's initiative based bonuses.

[Corswain]

I approach it in a different way. I see Forgeworld as the accurate representation of primarchs, the fluff is just too inconsistent.

Eg curze gets hammered by the Lion in Prince of Crows but then holds against the Lion AND Guilliman in Unremembered Empire.

We have one source saying Sanguiness is unbeatable but another saying fulgrim is the best swordsman.

I understand the need to make each primarch exciting and I actually have no problem with it in the fiction, but in terms of converting to rules it's just too all over the place.

Forgeworld for me is the ruler. Alan Bligh says it, it is gospel as far as I'm concerned.

So in answer, no changes - things are far better planned out and consistent, so far, than in the fluff.

[Daemon2027]

I approach it in a different way. I see Forgeworld as the accurate representation of primarchs, the fluff is just too inconsistent.

 

I really find it hard to see it like his, personally it would be worse if it was consistent. There is no definite answer as to who is the best primarch, trying to find one is pointless. Did the Lion beat Curze when he was forced into a fair fight. Yes. Did the Curze take on two primarchs when Curze had the ability to fight as he liked. Yes. That seems about right to me. Is Fulgrim the best swordsman. Yes. Does that mean he is a better fighter then Sanguinius. No. There's more to a fight then just being a master swordsman. Each primarch has their own strengths and weaknesses, abilities and flaws. On top of that their are situational differences, battelfields with different terrain, or the fact they have been fighting for hours and are sapped of strengths. Guiliman is the best tactician, but that doesn't mean he can be out manoeuvred on the battlefield. The books, BL, FW, or GW codex don't present stale environment, they give us scenes, where a character uses his strengths, or an openants weaknesses, to try and win a fight. Look at Corax vs Curze on Istvann. Corax had been fighting for hours, including against the Gal Vorbak, had beat down Lorgar (who was going through a period of self doubt in his own martial abilities), and was facing all sort of emotional and morale questions created by the Dropsite Massacre, so when Curze comes in, relatively fresh, Corax is at a disadvantage. Does that mean Corax is stronger or weaker then Curze. No. There's to much other stuff happening. And yes there is sometimes a bit of storytelling thrown in as well. But that's doesn't give us a definitive answer to that characters pecking order.

 

There is no pecking order. Any primarch can beat another given the right situation. So if the fluff is inconsistent, good, it should be.

 

Sorry if this has come across a bit like a rant.

 

Now if there's disparity in the rules about power levels between primarchs that is a different matter but I wouldn't bring the background into it because they are two different things. Rules can only so far reflect the characters of these meta humans.

[Ishagu]

I disagree that inconsistencies in fluff could possibly be a good thing.

How can Marines be walking tanks one minute, and then get one hit killed by Imperial Guard Las-guns the next?

 

The Primarchs should be clearly established in the lore, but when you have multiple authors and a shaky, overdrawn story this kind of thing is bound to happen.

 

Could Curze fight against Guilliman and the Lion and beat them down with ease? Absolutely not.

Exactly what makes Curze such a great Warrior? He butchered a bunch of normal humans on his planet, he never received any kind of formal or martial training.

Guilliman and the Lion's reactions and strength will be on a par, and they'll be more skilled combatants.

Each one should easily be a match for him - especially the Lion who's used to fighting monstrosities with claws from a young age! It's absurd and poor writing.

 

As for Guilliman not being a fearsome combatant, I clearly remember a scene where he's punching Marines literally into pieces whilst in Space without a helmet.

[Daemon2027]

But Curze is more agile, he is an expert at hit an run, using his environment, playing on strengths, he is not some monster from the forests but an intelligent meta human who knows his own abilities, and he had that advantage. I'm not saying Curze is a better warrior then Guiliman or the Lion, but he is no worse. Force Curze to fight either of those two In more honourable duel, face to face, no tricks, no room to manoeuvre, then Curze will more the likely loose. Guiliman isn't a better warrior then Lorgar and Angron combined, but in the right situation, with the right emotional charge he can hold his own against them both at the same time. All I am saying it is not as black and white as this primarch is better then primarch who is better then this primarch. If it was, this setting would be boring. Personally I want to read about a duel between to heros with out knowing one is going to win because he is the bestest warrior ever.

 

I didn't mention the difference in portrayals of space marines, you have a point with that, although in theory a simple las gun can kill a space marine if it hits the right area, but you would not a regiment of crack shots. But that's different from the primarchs,

[rendingon1+]

I think that HH books written by Dan Abnett are hmm... not great. I'm not sure they shoud be taken into account when talking about primarch power levels. Especially atrocious Unremembered Empire.

[Legatus]

The 40K Sorucebooks provide background information. Everything else is, as they say, "fluff". Exciting stories. Not necessarily accurate. But then the last editions of 40K have not exactly have had a high standard.

 

The forgeworld books are excellent in parts, shaky in others. I have lost all confidence in them when they took on the Ultramarines.

 

As far as FW "power levels" and point costs go, how well a Primarchs does when fighting another Primarch is only one aspect. The opponent might not even bring one. Maybe he is playing orks. Or maybe he just spends 400 points on extra units. How well does Guilliman do against a squad of 20 tactical Marines? (I.e. how many combat phases does it take him to cut through them?) How well does he do against a squad of 10 Terminators? Perhaps some of those Primarchs that would lose to him in a duel will do better against such units? Against 6 or so attacks from another Primarch, Guilliman's 4++ save with a single re-roll per phase is statistically better than the 3++ save some other Primarchs have. But against 20 Powerfist attacks from a Terminator squad the 3++ save wins out.

 

Another aspect are army buffs. I am not terribly familiar with all the Primarch's buffs, but Guilliman's do not strike me as overly powerful. Some of the other Primarchs' abilities, like those of Ferrus Manus, Curze or Alpharius arguably have a greater impact on a game than the buffs Guilliman provides.

[Remus Ventanus.]

I think that HH books written by Dan Abnett are hmm... not great. I'm not sure they shoud be taken into account when talking about primarch power levels. Especially atrocious Unremembered Empire.

huh, I find him to be the only constant in the series. ADB is good but abnett is always great for me

[Ishagu]

Abnett writes great stories but he has no consistency.

[Monkeychunks]

Corax, Curze and mortarion are the most maneuverable

Funny, until I read this I had absolutely no idea that Curze was Jump Infantry. There's nothing on his model to suggest that he is, so what exactly does this represent? Is he just jumping really high?

[depthcharge12]

Why hasn't anyone mentioned how rediculously resilient Bobby G is in the game? Re rolling a 4++ each game turn plus he and his unit ignores concussive? That's pretty damn powerful if you ask me, also considering you have a unit of rules superior honor guard with AP2 at initiative.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Why hasn't anyone mentioned how rediculously resilient Bobby G is in the game? Re rolling a 4++ each game turn plus he and his unit ignores concussive? That's pretty damn powerful if you ask me, also considering you have a unit of rules superior honor guard with AP2 at initiative.

The Reroll is once per game. I can't believe people are still trying to push that it clearly spells out that it's once per game in his rules.

[v6v77]

 

I approach it in a different way. I see Forgeworld as the accurate representation of primarchs, the fluff is just too inconsistent.

 

I really find it hard to see it like his, personally it would be worse if it was consistent. There is no definite answer as to who is the best primarch, trying to find one is pointless. Did the Lion beat Curze when he was forced into a fair fight. Yes. Did the Curze take on two primarchs when Curze had the ability to fight as he liked. Yes. That seems about right to me. Is Fulgrim the best swordsman. Yes. Does that mean he is a better fighter then Sanguinius. No. There's more to a fight then just being a master swordsman. Each primarch has their own strengths and weaknesses, abilities and flaws. On top of that their are situational differences, battelfields with different terrain, or the fact they have been fighting for hours and are sapped of strengths. Guiliman is the best tactician, but that doesn't mean he can be out manoeuvred on the battlefield. The books, BL, FW, or GW codex don't present stale environment, they give us scenes, where a character uses his strengths, or an openants weaknesses, to try and win a fight. Look at Corax vs Curze on Istvann. Corax had been fighting for hours, including against the Gal Vorbak, had beat down Lorgar (who was going through a period of self doubt in his own martial abilities), and was facing all sort of emotional and morale questions created by the Dropsite Massacre, so when Curze comes in, relatively fresh, Corax is at a disadvantage. Does that mean Corax is stronger or weaker then Curze. No. There's to much other stuff happening. And yes there is sometimes a bit of storytelling thrown in as well. But that's doesn't give us a definitive answer to that characters pecking order.

 

There is no pecking order. Any primarch can beat another given the right situation. So if the fluff is inconsistent, good, it should be.

 

Sorry if this has come across a bit like a rant.

 

Now if there's disparity in the rules about power levels between primarchs that is a different matter but I wouldn't bring the background into it because they are two different things. Rules can only so far reflect the characters of these meta humans.

Im going to take a single point from this and dissect it. Guilliman was not ever the best tactician of the imperium. He was the best logistician. An army marches on its stomach after all. Best tactician would go to the Lion or dare i say Alpharius.

 

Guilliman was and always will be the best organiser of the primarchs. Hence his mini empire and huge legion. Combat he should be okay. Buffing he should be better. His troops should be (and are) some of the best equipped ever.

[DuskRaider]

He re-rolls his first unsaved wound per PHASE.

[Ishagu]

 

Why hasn't anyone mentioned how rediculously resilient Bobby G is in the game? Re rolling a 4++ each game turn plus he and his unit ignores concussive? That's pretty damn powerful if you ask me, also considering you have a unit of rules superior honor guard with AP2 at initiative.

The Reroll is once per game. I can't believe people are still trying to push that it clearly spells out that it's once per game in his rules.

It's one per phase, every turn. Shooting, Assault, psychic and movement. Very clear in the rules.

[Kriegriss]

yes that's what it sais and it's bogase

[lokkorex]

Curze is good at combat because it was the only way he could survive until adolescence on that hellhole he called a homeworld.

 

And then he got trained by fulgrim in warfare after he was reunited with the imperium.

 

Now that i think about it, where did fulgrim learn his swordsmanship?

 

His planet didn't have any warfare, armies or culture based on combat, so did he learn it all from horus when the emperors children were attached to the 64th expedition fleet?

 

Also find it insane that mortarion and perturabos weapons are unwieldy, when the novels say the are swift as hell with them(perturabo smashing imperial fists to bits in the blink of an eye in angel exterminatus, for example)

 

I know, i know game-balance and all that crap, but c'mon! Lorgars monstrously big mace strikes at initiative right?

[Ishagu]

I agree that Mortarion shouldn't be unwieldy, however Perturabo can strike at initiative if he doesn't take the hammer, and is still incredibly strong with ap2...

 

Rogal Dorn shouldn't be striking at i1 either...

[lokkorex]

Agree about dorn, and i can live with perturabo having unwieldy, but it's an eyesore everytime i read angel exterminatus and the crimson fist.

[DuskRaider]

Other than perhaps Perturabo with Forgebreaker (and even then I'm not happy with it), no Primarch should have an Unwieldy weapon. Least of all the guy that was able to throw his at a freakin plane.