Primarch Power Levels

[lokkorex]

Wait, didn't horus do that when mortarion was down for the count?

 

In all fairness thought, perturabo forgebreaker reflects him "tinkering" a bit with it after horus gave it to him, so maybe he replaced all internal devices with lead or something.

[Slips]

The thing about Perturabo (and Ferrus, coincidentally) is that he can Punch you with his Fists at S7 Ap2 at Initiative or, pay ~35 Points to go up to S10 but Gain Unwieldy, Blind, Concussive and Strikedown(?). S8 on the Charge if hes in your deployment due to FC.

 

...but then you have Vulkan and Ferrus who just Laugh at you and swing both their S10 Hammers (one of which is the same as perty's) at Initiative.

 

:\

 

Dorn is.. *Sigh* I love him, hes my Gene Papa but he could use a little boost...

[DuskRaider]

Mortarion hurled Silence in the air and pulled down an Avenger, I believe (not Iron Man). Dorn is kinda uhhh... crap. At least in combat prowess. He needs something. I agree, it doesn't make sense that Forgebreaker armed Perturabo suffers from Unwieldy while Vulkan and the headless wonder don't.

[NonExistentOne]

That makes no sense to me since Perturabo was all about pragmatic upgrades. Why would he make something worse? (If anything he made the Forgebreaker more wieldy by stripping the decorations that Ferrus/Fulgrim put on it). IMO, they meant for it reflect the actual physical prowess of Ferrus and Vulkan (But did so in the weapons profile rather than the stat line?).

[Legatus]

m going to take a single point from this and dissect it. Guilliman was not ever the best tactician of the imperium. He was the best logistician. An army marches on its stomach after all. Best tactician would go to the Lion or dare i say Alpharius.

 

Guilliman was and always will be the best organiser of the primarchs. Hence his mini empire and huge legion. Combat he should be okay. Buffing he should be better. His troops should be (and are) some of the best equipped ever.

 

"The young Primarch grew quickly, and as he did so his unique physical and mental powers became obvious for all to see. By his tenth birthday he had studied and mastered everything the wisest men of Macragge could teach him. His insight into matters of history, philosophy and science astonished his elders, but his greatest talent lay in the art of war."

- 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 11 (also in 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 12)

 

"Because of its strong recruitment base and Roboute Guilliman's tactical expertise the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties."

- 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 12 (also in 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 13)

 

"At the age of six, as was custom for children of Macragge, he was taken from his father and induced into the Agiselus Barracks where he mastered the art of war with breathtaking speed. His grasp of philosophy, history and science was greater than anyone alive, yet his true genius lay in the field of military organisation. After two years it became farcial for Roboute to remain at the training barracks as he was already the mightiest warrior on Macragge. He could best every one of his instructors in hand to hand combat and none could out-think his battlefield stratagems."

- 3rd Edition Index Astartes Ultramarines

 

To say that Guilliman was mainly an organiser and a logistician is like saying that Jonson was known mainly for wearing robes. They were indeed known for those things, and were good at them, but that does not stop them from being very gifted tacticians.

 

Also the passages above should explain Guilliman's relatively high combat "power level". He was trained in military academies from the age six, which gives him a certain advantage over most other Primarchs who grew up in the wild or among slaves. He is essentially Julius Leonidas Caesar. Though GW does prefer to present him more as the statesman type. And admittedly his achievements in that field far outshine any duels of brawls he might have won occasionally.

[Hesh Kadesh]

It's funny how in the black library novels, guilliman has been shown to be fairly weak on multiple occasions

Sources please.

[lokkorex]

And yet he beats Angron, the Red Angel, whose fighting skills come from fighting constantly from his first day of enslavement,through his maturing in the pits, through his revolt and war waging towards the government, until he is put in charge of his legion, were his only consistent tactics and strategy are "Charge!" And then killing stuff in melee.

 

Yeah, makes total sense.

 

Granted, my mathhammer knowledge regarding this matter comes from 1d4chans 30k tactica.

[Legatus]

If you feed Angron one or two units first, he should be able to beat Guilliman.

[Daemon2027]

Actually Ceasers main strength was the way he used his armies, which of his commanders to use when, his ability to read situations, such as knowing when to camp and his ability to manipulate political situations, allying with one tribe to beat another. His men were also incredibly loyal as they realised they would gain more by following him then the senate. He also got incredibly lucky particularly against Pompey who sort of messed up his chance to really beat Ceasers Legions. Pompey was a more established tactician but seemed to get it wrong when it mattered(you could also read it that Ceaser was more ruthless, so knew exactly when to strike). But yes Guiliman is like Ceaser, but that doesn't necessarily donate tactical genius. But I digress massively.

 

And that's sort of my point, we shouldn't focus so much, from a background point of view, about which primarch is better. They are all amazing, they all have their strengths, but are all above human in every aspect, and the way their wars and battles play out will not come down to their abilities but other factors.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Why hasn't anyone mentioned how rediculously resilient Bobby G is in the game? Re rolling a 4++ each game turn plus he and his unit ignores concussive? That's pretty damn powerful if you ask me, also considering you have a unit of rules superior honor guard with AP2 at initiative.

The Reroll is once per game. I can't believe people are still trying to push that it clearly spells out that it's once per game in his rules.

 

 

 Well it clearly spells out the opposite

 

"in addition, the first invulnerable save failed by Roboute Guilliman in each particular phase of the game may be re-rolled."

 

Seems pretty explicit to me

[DuskRaider]

There's no way in any reality that Guilliman could best Angron in a duel. It just doesn't happen. However, as a tactician, Guilliman makes Angron look like a two year old with crayons and fingerpaint.

 

Guilliman's re-rolls is 100% the first unsaved wound of each phase. So... Turn One, you shoot him, he fails a save, he re-rolls. Use a Psyker power on him, he fails a save, re-rolls. Assault him, he fails a save, re-rolls. Rinse and repeat each phase of each turn.

[depthcharge12]

I'm thinking the Lion, Russ, and the Khan will be in the same boat/tier as Curze. A bit more glass cannon-y but able to do lots damage. The Lion will have a higher WS/I, Russ will have charge bonuses, and the Khan will get some hot and run shenanigans and a super high Initiative, likely on par with Fulgrim.

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

It's funny how in the black library novels, guilliman has been shown to be fairly weak on multiple occasions

Sources please.

 

We have know no fear, we here would have been killed by kor phaeron, if not for kor being an idiot, In UE he was very badly injured by ten astartes, when other primarchs have survived ridiculous amounts of pain, and he was bested by konrad kurze.....and the lion was helping Guilliman! ADB is the only person to make guilliman feel like a good 1 on 1 fighter.

[Hesh Kadesh]

You mean a chaos infused Kor Phaeron? Right.

 

These 10 Astartes being among the very best the Alpha Legion can throw at a target? You think the Alpha Legion throws freshly recruited noobs at a Primarch? Where he's unarmed, and unexpecting an attack.

 

Curze is a murderer, in his element, attacking targets who rarely operate in such circumstances; Curze who is already shown to be more than capable, terrorising Vulkan, and forcing off Corax to pick easiertargets (himself capable of fighting a Warp Empowered Lorgar).

 

Plus, you're referencing a book in which said Curze was only able to kill a single Space Wolf. Next you'll be telling me that Curze is weak. Dan Abnett's Primarchs are weak. So are his Space Marines to be honest; read Brothers of the Snake and see how fragile his Marines are, compared to the beating the Night Lords take in ADB's books.

 

Abnettverse is a thing, and while his stories are kind of okay, the fluff is supremely underpowered, more akin to Super-humans, rather than the Superhumans that other characters put across (I prefer Graham mcNeills marines, and that's saying something, as they're nearer Mary Sue caricatures rather than characters).

[Daemon2027]

I think Russ will be fairly tough, and a good fighter. I think he will give some sort of combat boost to nearby troops, like an inspiring presence. I really no little about rules I shouldn't comment.

 

 

I'm interested in the Wolves I will probably make a watch pack once they get an upgrade kit.

[Ishagu]

Unremembered Empire is just awful. The Lion is also a weakling in that book.

 

In Know no Fear, Guilliman appears incredibly strong. Kor Phaeron uses the full power of the warp against Guilliman, keep in mind.

[Ishagu]

I think Russ will be fairly tough, and a good fighter. I think he will give some sort of combat boost to nearby troops, like an inspiring presence. I really no little about rules I shouldn't comment.

 

 

I'm interested in the Wolves I will probably make a watch pack once they get an upgrade kit.

Russ will be tricky to get right imo. He needs similar ruled to Angron in terms of combat, with less attacks but more Tactical buffs.

[Daemon2027]

I don't think he should be as strong as Angron once Angron has eaten people or whatever he does to get better in combat but he does need to be a top fighter. At the same time I would expect some sort of army buff, not lots but I imagine he will have something. Then there is that phsycic howl he has done a few times. He could potentially be incredibly overpowered, I think that's one of the problems FW are having with the Prosperous book but that's just me speculating.

[Remus Ventanus.]

You mean a chaos infused Kor Phaeron? Right.

 

These 10 Astartes being among the very best the Alpha Legion can throw at a target? You think the Alpha Legion throws freshly recruited noobs at a Primarch? Where he's unarmed, and unexpecting an attack.

 

Curze is a murderer, in his element, attacking targets who rarely operate in such circumstances; Curze who is already shown to be more than capable, terrorising Vulkan, and forcing off Corax to pick easiertargets (himself capable of fighting a Warp Empowered Lorgar).

 

Plus, you're referencing a book in which said Curze was only able to kill a single Space Wolf. Next you'll be telling me that Curze is weak. Dan Abnett's Primarchs are weak. So are his Space Marines to be honest; read Brothers of the Snake and see how fragile his Marines are, compared to the beating the Night Lords take in ADB's books.

 

Abnettverse is a thing, and while his stories are kind of okay, the fluff is supremely underpowered, more akin to Super-humans, rather than the Superhumans that other characters put across (I prefer Graham mcNeills marines, and that's saying something, as they're nearer Mary Sue caricatures rather than characters).

Yes, a chaos infuesed, barely astarted kor phaeron. In Thousand sons, russ was barely weather by Magnus' attacks, and keep in mind magnus is a primarch, not some halfstartes.

 

Wow, 10 skilled astartes. Honeslty look at other primarchs. Lorgar survives a titans plasma cannon, angron survives being stepped on by a primarch, horus survives 2 thunderhawks and knights (quite easily), ect ect. 10 astartes is nothing compared to these.

 

When did i say kurze was weak? Thats the whole point. He is very strong compared to an incredibly weak lion el jonson and roboute guilliman. Was kurze in his element? Not really during the duel. It was a 2 on 1 sword fight.

 

All this being said im fine with how guilliman has been portrayed. A more realistic approach. But imo he has most definatly been shown to be weaker then the rest. 

[DuskRaider]

Well the main issue is rules wise. The tactical aspect of Guilliman is spot on, his combat prowess, especially against Primarchs specifically mentioned as consummate warriors among warriors? Not so much.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Chaos is handwavium. It can be as powerful as necessity. At this stage as well, Magnus was loyal.

 

Invulnerable saves are a thing. Terminator Armour after all was created to work inside the plasma engines of space ships.

 

Terminator Armour can survive being stepped on by a Titan. There is an old story about it.

 

As for 10 Astartes Assassins in a Legion who have been doing this since before Horus was even found, with those assassins likely equivalent to that of Sanguinary Guard, Invictus Suzerains, Templars, Keshig, attacking an unprepared unarmed Primarch? Eh.

 

I think you need to read what I wrote again.

[Remus Ventanus.]

But the 10 astartes would have killed guilliman, if again, they werent utterly stupid. They had the chance to, they had a gun up to guillimans head, but hesitated. See, they did win, but again, guilliman got lucky

[Kriegriss]

I think that dorn is a little lackluster but he is never mentioned as being a super combatant like horus angry Ron or sanguinus so I accept that (after all we get sigi) he has always been the master tactician The lion is the ultimate stratagist and Gilly is the logistics guy so I feel Gilly should be more on par with dorn as far as combat goes but the main problem is that for like 25 years they have been biulding the mythos of primarchs without ever really intending to biuld balanced tabletop models for them and now they are trying to and it's hard to make each one uneque but balanced so it's inevitable that there are some quirks can't even really balance them untill they are all released and get played thoroughly but I agree for his points and his lore Gilly is stronk and they attribute alot 9f it to his war gear witch personally I doubt any primarch wanted for fancy gizmos . I mean the lore for Dorn is that he used a chainsword and no offense but I mean that was fine when it was to make him stand out in art but really you think he would decide to just leave all my really good war gear at home I'm only defending terra from the biggest mob of super baddies ever I'm sure old reliable here is all I'll need like come on

[Ishagu]

Who knows how strong warp infused Kor Phaeron was?

In an Eisenhorn book a single human psyker was able to control the entire population of a planet like puppets.

 

Chaos is just a plot device, it can't be quantified.

 

As for other Primarchs surviving Titan weapons? Meh.. In another Eisenhorn book a single deamon made a Titan explode in seconds.

[DuskRaider]

Don't worry, Guilliman gets his revenge in the end by making 40K about nothing but him.

I think that dorn is a little lackluster but he is never mentioned as being a super combatant like horus angry Ron or sanguinus so I accept that (after all we get sigi) he has always been the master tactician The lion is the ultimate stratagist and Gilly is the logistics guy so I feel Gilly should be more on par with dorn as far as combat goes but the main problem is that for like 25 years they have been biulding the mythos of primarchs without ever really intending to biuld balanced tabletop models for them and now they are trying to and it's hard to make each one uneque but balanced so it's inevitable that there are some quirks can't even really balance them untill they are all released and get played thoroughly but I agree for his points and his lore Gilly is stronk and they attribute alot 9f it to his war gear witch personally I doubt any primarch wanted for fancy gizmos . I mean the lore for Dorn is that he used a chainsword and no offense but I mean that was fine when it was to make him stand out in art but really you think he would decide to just leave all my really good war gear at home I'm only defending terra from the biggest mob of super baddies ever I'm sure old reliable here is all I'll need like come on

I think they could have gotten away with making his giant Chainsword just a Paragon Blade.