Ishagu Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Don't worry, Guilliman gets his revenge in the end by making 40K about nothing but him. I think that dorn is a little lackluster but he is never mentioned as being a super combatant like horus angry Ron or sanguinus so I accept that (after all we get sigi) he has always been the master tactician The lion is the ultimate stratagist and Gilly is the logistics guy so I feel Gilly should be more on par with dorn as far as combat goes but the main problem is that for like 25 years they have been biulding the mythos of primarchs without ever really intending to biuld balanced tabletop models for them and now they are trying to and it's hard to make each one uneque but balanced so it's inevitable that there are some quirks can't even really balance them untill they are all released and get played thoroughly but I agree for his points and his lore Gilly is stronk and they attribute alot 9f it to his war gear witch personally I doubt any primarch wanted for fancy gizmos . I mean the lore for Dorn is that he used a chainsword and no offense but I mean that was fine when it was to make him stand out in art but really you think he would decide to just leave all my really good war gear at home I'm only defending terra from the biggest mob of super baddies ever I'm sure old reliable here is all I'll need like come on I think they could have gotten away with making his giant Chainsword just a Paragon Blade. It should just be str +2, ap2. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted August 7, 2015 Author Share Posted August 7, 2015 Well, I'd give him the full Paragon Blade advantages... a Paragon Blade wielded by a Primarch? Nasty. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Don't worry, Guilliman gets his revenge in the end by making 40K about nothing but him. your treading on thin ice.... ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 But the 10 astartes would have killed guilliman, if again, they werent utterly stupid. They had the chance to, they had a gun up to guillimans head, but hesitated. See, they did win, but again, guilliman got lucky I've read a BL book in which 5 Marines overcame an entire army that had conquered a planet. That book was also written by Dan Abnett. I could literally say to you that if Guilliman was able to defeat 10 Marines he is more powerful than the combined might of two Military worlds! Lol I didn't write it! This is why we can't base any comparisons on the lore, and why I've said that the gw codecies are the only true lore... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 It's at times like these I wish we were all wearing togas in a Roman forum; yelling at each other and banging our chests till someone ran out of breath :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 I actually think this is a great topic :-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 It's at times like these I wish we were all wearing togas in a Roman forum; yelling at each other and banging our chests till someone ran out of breath Lol, there are a few who would like to take a swing at me.... My loincloth will protect me Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 It's at times like these I wish we were all wearing togas in a Roman forum; yelling at each other and banging our chests till someone ran out of breath Lol, there are a few who would like to take a swing at me.... My loincloth will protect me Lol I'm not one of them. I'm just trying to show the folly of basing something on the BL lore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 It's at times like these I wish we were all wearing togas in a Roman forum; yelling at each other and banging our chests till someone ran out of breath Lol, there are a few who would like to take a swing at me.... My loincloth will protect me Those were the good ol days...I'm sure Hyaenidae remembers them :D Unfortunately we can't settle disputes like silverback gorillas but we must engage in civil discourse. I think this fluff point has a lot of contention. I don't think Guilliman is weak, but I wouldn't put money on him in a fight either. I just think his buffs in cc just make him excel more than he likely should. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 It's at times like these I wish we were all wearing togas in a Roman forum; yelling at each other and banging our chests till someone ran out of breath Lol, there are a few who would like to take a swing at me.... My loincloth will protect me Those were the good ol days...I'm sure Hyaenidae remembers them Unfortunately we can't settle disputes like silverback gorillas but we must engage in civil discourse. I think this fluff point has a lot of contention. I don't think Guilliman is weak, but I wouldn't put money on him in a fight either. I just think his buffs in cc just make him excel more than he likely should. Oh i dont think he is weak, just that he has been presented as weak in some BL novels. Perhaps i shouldnt have said he has been shown to be the weakest. My bad Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfOfHorus Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Almost all of the HH books are terrible compared to the first 4. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 But the 10 astartes would have killed guilliman, if again, they werent utterly stupid. They had the chance to, they had a gun up to guillimans head, but hesitated. See, they did win, but again, guilliman got lucky "Hesitated" "Alpha Legion" Doesn't that say something? You've read Legion, right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140921 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Why hasn't anyone mentioned how rediculously resilient Bobby G is in the game? Re rolling a 4++ each game turn plus he and his unit ignores concussive? That's pretty damn powerful if you ask me, also considering you have a unit of rules superior honor guard with AP2 at initiative.The Reroll is once per game. I can't believe people are still trying to push that it clearly spells out that it's once per game in his rules.It's one per phase, every turn. Shooting, Assault, psychic and movement. Very clear in the rules.The rule clearly states it's the 1st failed save in particular phase of the game. Not the turn, the game. It's very clearly spelled out in the last line. It would only be reroll per turn if it specifically said turn, but it does not it says game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 But the 10 astartes would have killed guilliman, if again, they werent utterly stupid. They had the chance to, they had a gun up to guillimans head, but hesitated. See, they did win, but again, guilliman got lucky "Hesitated""Alpha Legion" Doesn't that say something? You've read Legion, right? I have, but I don't recall them hesitating before a kill. Tho it has been long since I have read it. I mean you have the primarch you were set out to kill at gun point and you don't shoot immediately? Seems off to me Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 It's Guilliman's special ability. When he is beaten and the opponent is about to deliver the killing blow, he invariably gets them to gloat about it, which enables him to sneak in a death blow himself. It's how he got Kor Phaeron and it's how he got the last Alpha Legion assassin. I suspect that's how his fight with Fulgrim will go as well. After all, Daemon Fulgrim was nowhere to be found after their duel. I think I remember Guilliman getting Angron to start rambling in 'Betrayer', but then Lorgar turned him into a Daemon. Just when Guilliman had Anrgon where he wanted him. Edit: The rule clearly states it's the 1st failed save in particular phase of the game. Not the turn, the game. The first failed save in each particular phase of the game. In each particular phase. Compare: "the first invulnerable save failed by Roboute Guilliman in each particular phase of the game may be re-rolled." to this: "the first invulnerable save failed by Roboute Guilliman in the game may be re-rolled." The latter is what you want. The former is what the rule says. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 It's Guilliman's special ability. When he is beaten and the opponent is about to deliver the killing blow, he invariably gets them to gloat about it, which enables him to sneak in a death blow himself. It's how he got Kor Phaeron and it's how he got the last Alpha Legion assassin. I suspect that's how his fight with Fulgrim will go as well. After all, Daemon Fulgrim was nowhere to be found after their duel. I think I remember Guilliman getting Angron to start rambling in 'Betrayer', but then Lorgar turned him into a Daemon. Just when Guilliman had Anrgon where he wanted him. Exactly. Just seems like...the writers wrote themselves into a corner and had to find a cheap way to get out of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Why hasn't anyone mentioned how rediculously resilient Bobby G is in the game? Re rolling a 4++ each game turn plus he and his unit ignores concussive? That's pretty damn powerful if you ask me, also considering you have a unit of rules superior honor guard with AP2 at initiative.The Reroll is once per game. I can't believe people are still trying to push that it clearly spells out that it's once per game in his rules.It's one per phase, every turn. Shooting, Assault, psychic and movement. Very clear in the rules.The rule clearly states it's the 1st failed save in particular phase of the game. Not the turn, the game. It's very clearly spelled out in the last line. It would only be reroll per turn if it specifically said turn, but it does not it says game. I already answered you and debunked your theory with the exact line from Tempest, but it seems like you skipped over it. Once again: "in addition, the first invulnerable save failed by Roboute Guilliman in each particular phase of the game may be re-rolled." It says each phase of the game, enabling it to work every phase. There's nothing vague about it or open to interpretation Then again, this isn't the first time you've completely misinterpreted a rule Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted August 7, 2015 Author Share Posted August 7, 2015 Why hasn't anyone mentioned how rediculously resilient Bobby G is in the game? Re rolling a 4++ each game turn plus he and his unit ignores concussive? That's pretty damn powerful if you ask me, also considering you have a unit of rules superior honor guard with AP2 at initiative.The Reroll is once per game. I can't believe people are still trying to push that it clearly spells out that it's once per game in his rules.It's one per phase, every turn. Shooting, Assault, psychic and movement. Very clear in the rules.The rule clearly states it's the 1st failed save in particular phase of the game. Not the turn, the game. It's very clearly spelled out in the last line. It would only be reroll per turn if it specifically said turn, but it does not it says game. "in addition, the first invulnerable save failed by Roboute Guilliman in each particular phase of the game may be re-rolled." In each phase of the game... Moving Phase, Shooting Phase, Psyker Phase, Assault Phase. In each phase, Guilliman re-rolls his first failed save. So EACH phase, he may re-roll his first failed save. Like I said earlier, if he trips in Dangerous Terrain and fails, he re-rolls... if he gets shot and fails his save, he re-rolls, if he get hit with a Psyker power and fails to save, he re-rolls, and if he's wounded in CC and fails to save, he also re-rolls. It's not once per game. It's Guilliman's special ability. When he is beaten and the opponent is about to deliver the killing blow, he invariably gets them to gloat about it, which enables him to sneak in a death blow himself. It's how he got Kor Phaeron and it's how he got the last Alpha Legion assassin. I suspect that's how his fight with Fulgrim will go as well. After all, Daemon Fulgrim was nowhere to be found after their duel. I think I remember Guilliman getting Angron to start rambling in 'Betrayer', but then Lorgar turned him into a Daemon. Just when Guilliman had Anrgon where he wanted him. Edit: The rule clearly states it's the 1st failed save in particular phase of the game. Not the turn, the game. The first failed save in each particular phase of the game. In each particular phase. Compare: "the first invulnerable save failed by Roboute Guilliman in each particular phase of the game may be re-rolled." to this: "the first invulnerable save failed by Roboute Guilliman in the game may be re-rolled." The latter is what you want. The former is what the rule says. This made me laugh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Why hasn't anyone mentioned how rediculously resilient Bobby G is in the game? Re rolling a 4++ each game turn plus he and his unit ignores concussive? That's pretty damn powerful if you ask me, also considering you have a unit of rules superior honor guard with AP2 at initiative. The Reroll is once per game. I can't believe people are still trying to push that it clearly spells out that it's once per game in his rules.It's one per phase, every turn. Shooting, Assault, psychic and movement. Very clear in the rules.The rule clearly states it's the 1st failed save in particular phase of the game. Not the turn, the game. It's very clearly spelled out in the last line. It would only be reroll per turn if it specifically said turn, but it does not it says game. I already answered you and debunked your theory with the exact line from Tempest, but it seems like you skipped over it. Once again: "in addition, the first invulnerable save failed by Roboute Guilliman in each particular phase of the game may be re-rolled." It says each phase of the game, enabling it to work every phase. There's nothing vague about it or open to interpretation Particular:Adjective 1. used to single out an individual member of a specified group or class. In the quote, particular is referring to each phase (movement, psychic, shooting, assault) of the game. Therefore, he would reroll the The first failed save in each phase of the game. Not the turn. Example: turn 2 Guiliman takes a wound from a plasma gun, fails his Invul, and gets his reroll. That is his one reroll in the shooting phase for the whole game. If he failed another Invul in the shooting phase on a different turn, let's say turn 4, he would not get to reroll it. This happens for every phase, movement, psychic, shooting, and assault. He gets one for each, then he's done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140956 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 I'm not sure who to believe^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokkorex Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Hasn't anyone bothered to email fw about that damned rule yet? Seems like the discussion about it just goes around, and around... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Each particular phase is different from the one in the next turn. It simply creates the distinction that you get a reroll each particular phase across the game. You've "singled out an individual member of a specified group or class" which is shooting phase 1 or assault phase 4 out of all movement, shooting, assault, etc.. phases and you can continue to apply it across each particular phase throughout the entire game. Or are you also going to try and convince me that Curze gets first turn on a 2+ ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140973 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 FW email responses aren't very good anymore, or at least not as reliable as I remember them being. I just read a post in the Word Bearer tactic thread saying that Zardu Layak & Blade Slave should be able to join a unit, when I received one myself on literally the same day it was posted that said they could not. :P With Guilliman, I think it is safe to say it's once every phase. The wording is pretty clear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Hasn't anyone bothered to email fw about that damned rule yet? Seems like the discussion about it just goes around, and around... I believe it was asked and explicitly told by the FW team in an email. It might be under the HH rules section, but it might've gone under during the server downtime. The FW team would have written "He may reroll his invulnerable save once per game" if that's what they intended, PSoM. Instead they wrote once in each particular phase. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4140979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Why hasn't anyone mentioned how rediculously resilient Bobby G is in the game? Re rolling a 4++ each game turn plus he and his unit ignores concussive? That's pretty damn powerful if you ask me, also considering you have a unit of rules superior honor guard with AP2 at initiative.The Reroll is once per game. I can't believe people are still trying to push that it clearly spells out that it's once per game in his rules.It's one per phase, every turn. Shooting, Assault, psychic and movement. Very clear in the rules.The rule clearly states it's the 1st failed save in particular phase of the game. Not the turn, the game. It's very clearly spelled out in the last line. It would only be reroll per turn if it specifically said turn, but it does not it says game. I already answered you and debunked your theory with the exact line from Tempest, but it seems like you skipped over it. Once again: "in addition, the first invulnerable save failed by Roboute Guilliman in each particular phase of the game may be re-rolled." It says each phase of the game, enabling it to work every phase. There's nothing vague about it or open to interpretation Then again, this isn't the first time you've completely misinterpreted a rule Does that mean he gets 4 total rerolls? One reroll the first time he fails a save in the movement phase, the first time he fails one in the shooting, etc etc? But the 10 astartes would have killed guilliman, if again, they werent utterly stupid. They had the chance to, they had a gun up to guillimans head, but hesitated. See, they did win, but again, guilliman got lucky"Hesitated""Alpha Legion" Doesn't that say something? You've read Legion, right? I have, but I don't recall them hesitating before a kill. Tho it has been long since I have read it. I mean you have the primarch you were set out to kill at gun point and you don't shoot immediately? Seems off to me You said hesitated, not me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312050-primarch-power-levels/page/4/#findComment-4141001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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