IL XVII - The Warriors of Peace (thread 1)

[bluntblade]

How so?

[~Drakzilla~]

Okay so how about this:

 

Power Staff:

The Power Staff has two listed profiles. The first is used for each To Hit roll of 6, otherwise the second is used instead.

 

Weapon………….Range……Str……AP……Type

Power Staff……..…N/A.......X2/+3.....2/5…...Melee, Two-handed, Concussive

 

Any character or Independent Character with the Legiones Astartes(Warriors of Peace)

special rule eligible to take a power fist as part of their options may instead take a Power Staff for ??? points.

 

So now it won't instagib marines with every strike, has consistent Concussive, an AP value that makes sense, and avoids making up a random new rule. Also made it available to characters...but at what cost?? *stares solemnly into the sunset*

 

But srsly, how much do you guys think these are worth? I am not a points expert.

[Nomus Sardauk]

Hmm, 35pts? :/

[Doctor Perils]

Wait, :cuss , they aren't unwieldy?! That's a damn powerful weapon!

[~Drakzilla~]

Too powerful? Should I tone it down, or just make them cost a lot of points? Because I also have an entire unit equipped with them...

[Grifftofer]

I think it will work fine, just make it a powerfist replacement, so it's fairly expensive. I think that would be reasonable as it loses the consistency of the powerfist in exchange for striking first. Though I would consider making the base profile +2 Strength, which still puts them up at strength 6.

[Nomus Sardauk]

I think it will work fine, just make it a powerfist replacement, so it's fairly expensive. I think that would be reasonable as it loses the consistency of the powerfist in exchange for striking first. Though I would consider making the base profile +2 Strength, which still puts them up at strength 6.

 

Plus it's two-handed, whereas Power Fists are not, so that's another tradeoff.

[bluntblade]

On a vaguely related note, I just watched Red Cliff. Oh boy.

[Doctor Perils]

 

I think it will work fine, just make it a powerfist replacement, so it's fairly expensive. I think that would be reasonable as it loses the consistency of the powerfist in exchange for striking first. Though I would consider making the base profile +2 Strength, which still puts them up at strength 6.

 

Plus it's two-handed, whereas Power Fists are not, so that's another tradeoff.

 

But his Iron Monks already have 3 attacks, so it's not a massive tradeoff.

 

I mean, it's not far too powerful, but I also think it should be more expensive then a Power Fist: at least as expensive as a Thunderhammer, as it is essentially a fast thunder-hammer-lite.

My "problem" with it though is that I can't really imagine a power staff acting like this, when you consider how power mauls act. If I were you, I'd say it is essentially a two handed power maul, which gives an invul save equivalent to a combat shield, but also grants an extra attack or two: that way, to me, it feels more like the Power Maul and has the added defensive properties of a quarterstaff. -> In that case, I'd reduce the base Monks attacks back down to 2.

If you want to keep the rules you've devised, I'd change the name, call it a Kanabo or something similar.

[Nomus Sardauk]

Reducing the the attacks to two does seem like a good adjustment.

[Chief Captain Redd]

I like Thørn's suggestion it seems very sensical and a solid unit. You could add a smash esque attack where you only get one hit per monk but it's str8 ap2.

 

Fluff wise I'd not actually ever written a gift piece for the Jade General, and instead of a single weapon Daer'dd could give him a huge batch of the staffs, Redd's Tomahawk even has a similar "arcane" mechanism. We did something similar with Niklaas "developing" the Leviathan pattern Dreads.

[~Drakzilla~]

@Grifftofer: Not sure about making them S +2. Do they really need it? I figured the AP 5 balanced out the S +3, but if people think it's too much I'll change it. I just feel like S7 AP5 (with a 16% chance of becoming thunder hammers) puts them at a unique spot among space marine weapons.

 

Edit: Okay so after reviewing you guys's comments I can see something should change. I think I may bump the staffs down to S+2, and make the iron monks have 2 attacks each, but give them counterattack to compensate slightly? I may review some more and propose some other options. But my main goal for this unit was a "Deathstar Hunter", something that could potentially take out enemies much tougher than themselves, but not necessarily take much punishment.

 

@Redd: I don't know about Daer'dd giving them the staffs, as they would be more widespread among the legion, available to sergeants and the like.

Edited August 19, 2016 by drakzilla

[Doctor Perils]

I like Thørn's suggestion it seems very sensical and a solid unit. You could add a smash esque attack where you only get one hit per monk but it's str8 ap2.

 

Fluff wise I'd not actually ever written a gift piece for the Jade General, and instead of a single weapon Daer'dd could give him a huge batch of the staffs, Redd's Tomahawk even has a similar "arcane" mechanism. We did something similar with Niklaas "developing" the Leviathan pattern Dreads.

If you go with the Smash attack, I'd only give it to the Sergeant.

 

@Grifftofer: Not sure about making them S +2. Do they really need it? I figured the AP 5 balanced out the S +3, but if people think it's too much I'll change it. I just feel like S7 AP5 (with a 16% chance of becoming thunder hammers) puts them at a unique spot among space marine weapons.

 

Edit: Okay so after reviewing you guys's comments I can see something should change. I think I may bump the staffs down to S+2, and make the iron monks have 2 attacks each, but give them counterattack to compensate slightly? I may review some more and propose some other options. But my main goal for this unit was a "Deathstar Hunter", something that could potentially take out enemies much tougher than themselves, but not necessarily take much punishment.

 

@Redd: I don't know about Daer'dd giving them the staffs, as they would be more widespread among the legion, available to sergeants and the like.

If that's what you want, the Staff really doesn't sound like the weapon for you. I'm by no means a fan of japanese/chinese warfare (mostly I think it gets played up too much by people who revere the Katana and Manga), but going from pop culture, the Kanabo definitely sounds more logical.

 

Also, in terms of rules, it'd be easier to just say they are concussive (all the time, like the Maul), and they wound automatically on 6s,but don't gain AP2. =>Then the enemy still has the possibility of making saves rather then automatically suffering the concussive rule, so despite hitting at initiative it doesn't sound overpowered.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Lord Thørn

[Nomus Sardauk]

I'd say leave the Kanabo as a possible weapon for the Lightning Bearers/Harbingers given it's a Japanese weapon used by Samurai, whereas the Warriors of Peace are based on Ancient China.

A possible alternative I suggested in the past for a unique weapon for the WoP were power weapon versions of Chinese Tiger Hooks used by Shaolin Monks, which seems pleasantly prophetic in hindsight.

[Kelborn]

Or these blades from Kabal (Mortal Kombat)? Can't remember their name.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Hook blades^^

[bluntblade]

I'd say leave the Kanabo as a possible weapon for the Lightning Bearers/Harbingers given it's a Japanese weapon used by Samurai, whereas the Warriors of Peace are based on Ancient China.

A possible alternative I suggested in the past for a unique weapon for the WoP were power weapon versions of Chinese Tiger Hooks used by Shaolin Monks, which seems pleasantly prophetic in hindsight.

I'm pretty sure Athrawes has indeed used a Kanabo for one of his Legionaries. If he didn't, Lord Caldera did (his Lightning Bearers, Sentinel Kionen's Fifth, are present in the broverse)

[~Drakzilla~]

I dunno, I still like the idea of simple power staffs for my warrior monks. But let's entertain some other possibilities for now:

 

Kanabo: Big no, seeing as that is a Japanese weapon. There are Chinese maces that are slimmer and not studded, but I can't see why those or the Kanabo would be any different from power mauls.

 

Hook Swords: While those are a definite shaolin monk weapon, and I do love the look of them and their potential effectiveness...for some reason I just can't see them in the hands of an Astartes. They seem too...thin? Dainty almost? Just not sold on the idea.

 

Butterfly Swords: Effective, iconic, and definitely shaolin. The short, thick blade shape matches space marine aesthetic as well. Do we have any units bristling with dual shortswords in the BoTL? Could be really cool, and I see them spitting out a ton of attacks.

 

Guan Dao: Hmm. One of my favorite weapons, and it's quintessentially Chinese. Only thing is, these will be the legion's specific wargear option, and that may be too similar(identical really) to the canon White Scars power glaive.

 

Nunchucks: Almost seems too obvious, but hey why not? Give them a special rule where on a roll of 1 you hit yourself on the head.

 

Power Gauntlets: The Jade General has a pair of smaller, lighter power fists, so why not these guys? Monks are known for punching after all.

 

Their Bare Hands: The manliest option of them all. Give them some special rule to compensate for being unarmed, possibly use the opponent's strength against them? Some kind of flurry of blows attack?

 

Anyways, just brainstorming here. I'd like to hear some more thoughts on these and more suggestions.

[Grifftofer]

Well the Reapers have a pair of swords (exact size and shape to be decided upon when I've experimented with some options), but I use the charnabal sabre rules, so if you had a different weapon they would be similar, but not too much so.

[Nomus Sardauk]

Kanabo: Big no, seeing as that is a Japanese weapon. There are Chinese maces that are slimmer and not studded, but I can't see why those or the Kanabo would be any different from power mauls.

 

Agreed, leave this for the Lightning Bearers/Harbingers, nuff'said.

 

Hook Swords: While those are a definite shaolin monk weapon, and I do love the look of them and their potential effectiveness...for some reason I just can't see them in the hands of an Astartes. They seem too...thin? Dainty almost? Just not sold on the idea.

 

Well that's a easy fix, just thicken the weapon blades to satisfaction and add the appropriate power weapon mechanisms (probably at the end of the grip and/or behind the handguard blade.

 

Butterfly Swords: Effective, iconic, and definitely shaolin. The short, thick blade shape matches space marine aesthetic as well. Do we have any units bristling with dual shortswords in the BoTL? Could be really cool, and I see them spitting out a ton of attacks.

 

I get your reasoning here but in my opinion that they match so well with the Space Marine aesthetic would be why I'd avoid them, they look too similar to standard marine Combat Knives to be a unique, legion-specific weapon. Still, just my opinion, ultimately it's your call.

 

Guan Dao: Hmm. One of my favorite weapons, and it's quintessentially Chinese. Only thing is, these will be the legion's specific wargear option, and that may be too similar(identical really) to the canon White Scars power glaive.

 

I dunno if Simison mentioned this to you when he passed on stewardship of the Warriors to you but myself and he talked a bit about a potential 40k era special character for the Warriors based on the legendary warrior Guan Yu and his famous Green Dragon Crescent Blade Guan Dao. I don't know if you plan to go ahead with that idea but regardless I don't think the Guan Dao would fit the Iron Monks very well, it just doesn't mesh with their image in my mind.

 

Nunchucks: Almost seems too obvious, but hey why not? Give them a special rule where on a roll of 1 you hit yourself on the head.

 

Hmmmm, I don't think so, the visual of a marine wielding nunchucks just looks so silly to me. Plus I'm not sure a marine properly wield a pair of nunchaku, I mean, just imagine a marine trying to do that move where they swing the weapon over and around their shoulders but now add Power Armour Pauldrons into the mix, it's impossible! :D

 

Power Gauntlets: The Jade General has a pair of smaller, lighter power fists, so why not these guys? Monks are known for punching after all.

 

I see nothing wrong with this, it's fluffy, it's consist with their design and theming, maybe make it an option for the Guro?

 

Their Bare Hands: The manliest option of them all. Give them some special rule to compensate for being unarmed, possibly use the opponent's strength against them? Some kind of flurry of blows attack?

 

Unless they have someone constantly on-hand (no pun intended) casting Iron Arm on them I see no way whatsoever this could be anywhere near practical, reasonable, believable or effective.

[Grifftofer]

Unless they have someone constantly on-hand (no pun intended) casting Iron Arm on them I see no way whatsoever this could be anywhere near practical, reasonable, believable or effective.

I can sort of understand your reasoning here, but to my mind you would simply add a special rule to the models that would apply to their melee attacks. For example Rending (or Banestrike if that is too much), they would then be able to 'break' through armour with their superior skills, add something like Precision Strikes and/or Chosen Warriors and you have a unit who are quite capable of dishing out damage even 'unarmed'.

[Demus Ragnok]

Nunchucks:!!! ???

 

Panthro is that you?

[bluntblade]

Chakram, perhaps?

[Nomus Sardauk]

Chakram, perhaps?

Isn't that an Indian weapon used by Rajput Warriors?

[Grifftofer]

Am I the only one thinking of a dual melee/ranged weapon, which on a roll of a 6 to-hit causes 2 hits?

 

 

And no. I am absolutely not remembering Xena at all and using it for inspiration. Nope, not me http://image.bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_emoticons/default/msn-wink.gif