IL XVII - The Warriors of Peace (thread 1)

[MikhalLeNoir]

If it opems the gates of chaos i can handle them as normal.swords and well give them the counterattack as battlemeditstion.

[~Drakzilla~]

I can't speak for Sim here, and I certainly don't want this to come across as "nah nah I want more toys than you", but doing the Multi-weapon approach should probably be limited to a single legion. After all, it does kinda skirt the limits of what a legion should have, and I'm not sure many legions should be able to do that. Like I said, if it's a problem I'll retract it.

 

That being said, any ideas for point costs, or critiques of the weapons themselves?

 

Edit: whoops took too long to respond. Still think it should be limited to only one or two legions, lest it set a bad precedent.

Edited September 8, 2016 by drakzilla

[simison]

If it opems the gates of chaos i can handle them as normal.swords and well give them the counterattack as battlemeditstion.

 

Don't worry about it. FW already established the precedent. 

[Grifftofer]

The only thing I want to add to this discussion is to point out that while they do get more weapons options the Caedere Weapon options are all (arguably) at the same level as power weapons or worse. They generally have lower AP or are Unwieldy for only AP3 and they are all Specialist (and/or Two-handed). Generally they are considered interesting options that are not very competitive to take (or at best they are unreliable), as compared to say the Legatine Axe (AP2 @ I) or Calibanite Warblade (+1S power sword for free).

[~Drakzilla~]

Yeah, I was aware that the Caedere weapons are all at the same power level. Which is to say, kinda sucky from what I've gathered. I wanted some that people would actually use, and that had more variety. If you guys think that the Sinaean weapons should be adjusted to be less powerful, or more uniform in power level, then I'll try my best to do so.

[simison]

The only thing I want to add to this discussion is to point out that while they do get more weapons options the Caedere Weapon options are all (arguably) at the same level as power weapons or worse. They generally have lower AP or are Unwieldy for only AP3 and they are all Specialist (and/or Two-handed). Generally they are considered interesting options that are not very competitive to take (or at best they are unreliable), as compared to say the Legatine Axe (AP2 @ I) or Calibanite Warblade (+1S power sword for free).

 

Well, that solves my conundrum. So, Caedere Weapons are essentially just a way to play very fluff to a legion, but not very effectively.

 

Which rules out the weapons we saw on the previous page. What about yours, Mikhal?

[MikhalLeNoir]

I just wanted to add counter attack and the possibility to pair to the existing weapons to show that the wardens don't often use swords. Instead they use the tonfasstyle weapons.

[Grifftofer]

To me the Gauntlets and Staff are pretty well balanced. The Twin Tiger Hooks are probably ok too. It's the Han Sword that seems the more powerful option, and I think that tweaking the AP to around 5 would balance it to around the same level. I think they would compare fairly with power weapons, but I guess others might want to check my thinking.

[Nomus Sardauk]

My original idea behind the Tiger Hooks was they'd act like power swords or more in-character equivalent to Lightning Claws as I couldn't picture a "civilised" Legion like the Warriors using such savage tools. Their ability would be to reduce an opponent's number of attacks like Tyranid Lash Whips or alternatively, lowering their initiative by using the hooks to unbalance or expose the opponent by hooking their limbs/weapons but I must say this new Disarm rule is really interesting... :)

[~Drakzilla~]

I can make the Han Broadsword AP 5, but in my mind it's a big power sword so that seems a little counterintuitive to me. Perhaps I can change the Deep Cut rule to only a 3+ To Wound, or just +1 To Wound. Meanwhile bringing the AP down to 4.

 

However, if Simison thinks that these weapons would still be too powerful for the Caedere weapon treatment, then I can just get rid of the broadsword entirely and have the rest take up three wargear slots.

[MikhalLeNoir]

So what now? I asked several times how to implement the tonfas as weapons without having every weapon take up a wargear slot. I have no problem with another legion jabing those weapons as mine use the same.profiles as normal swords added with.counterattack amd paired special rules.

[Chief Captain Redd]

Honestly I'm fine with the Warriors having a Tonfa Caedere, as you said Mik, they're just swords stats with counter attack correct? May I make a simpler suggestion though, since having a pistol and ccw is the same as paired maybe a purchasable upgrade for counter attack for +3 or +5 ppm if they're armed with a sword variant? That way you could have normal swords, power, charnable saber, and paragon blade Tonfas. Edited September 8, 2016 by Chief Captain Redd

[~Drakzilla~]

Actually Mikhal's asking about his own legion. Mik, I personally think you could get away with representing that as a special Legiones Astartes rule, or one of the other ones akin to the Salamanders mastercrafted weapon rules.

[Chief Captain Redd]

Ohh no I know; I'm fine with both Legions have a Caerdere honestly. I was just giving Mikhal a suggestion.

[~Drakzilla~]

Ah, okay. You did say Warriors with tonfas though.

 

So can Simison or any of the other rules experts give me an opinion of whether or not these weapons are too powerful for the Caedere weapon entry treatment? Grifft, not sure if you're yay or nay.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Thing is: if we don't establish tonfa weapons as wargear entry, then there exist no tonfas amd I can't add a rule without making it to much. Cuz then EVERY unit gets counterattack. This was a problem I discussed like forever with grifft.

[simison]

Didn't forget, just needed handle a couple of higher priorities. 

 

Mikhal, if you want to establish a Caedere armoury, you can do so. When we get to the Wardens of Light, that's when we'll check to make sure it's compliant.

[MikhalLeNoir]

I just want to establish tonfas/ellbowblades with different options : chain, power, paragon. Edited September 9, 2016 by MikhalLeNoir

[Grifftofer]

The issue, for me,  is that they aren't a category of weapons that are balanced with each other. They are instead a straight upgrades of already extant weapons at multiple power levels. I could see it as a compulsory upgrade for your marines though, so all of your guys have to take tonfas, but they can't not take them. So they are always more expensive than their contemporaries.

[bluntblade]

I still don't understand what they find so repulsive about swords. And there is also the factor that things like that lose a certain amount of coolness once everyone has them Edited September 9, 2016 by bluntblade

[MikhalLeNoir]

Come over and discuss it at the Wardens thread this is not for me to spam the thread of drak

[~Drakzilla~]

Sinaean Weapons:

Any character model with the Legiones Astartes (Warriors of Peace) special rule with the option to take a power weapon may purchase a single Sinaean weapon instead for ??? points.

 

Power Staff- S:+2, AP:4, Melee, Two Handed, Defensive Weapon

Defensive Weapon: When fighting in close combat, a model using a power staff has a 6++ invulnerable save, or adds +1 to an existing invuln save.

Kinetic Gauntlet- S:User, AP:5, Melee, Specialist Weapon, Concussive, Dexterous

Dexterous: A model that uses a kinetic gauntlet in the turn in which it charges gains +1 Weapon Skill for that turn.

Twin Tiger Hooks- S:User, AP:3, Melee, Two Handed, Disarm

Disarm: A model that suffers a wound from this weapon must make an Initiative test. If failed, then for the remaining initiative steps and the following turn, the model cannot use the profile for its close combat weapon and may not gain an additional attack from wielding two close combat weapons. If the model has multiple weapons, the controlling player may choose which is lost.

Han Broadsword- S:User, AP:4, Melee, Two Handed, Deep Cut, Versatile

Deep Cut: Hits generated by a To Hit roll of 6 become +1 Strength and AP: 3.

Versatile: The player may choose to use the weapon without the Two Handed rule, but it becomes Unwieldy.

Okay here they are, slightly revised rules. Do you guys think they are balanced enough to be put under a single wargear entry, Caedere style? Let me know your thoughts!

[~Drakzilla~]

Some fluff regarding the weapons:

 

Sinaean Weapons:

Originating from the Han monks who raised the Jade General, these exotic weapons were quickly adopted by the Warriors of Peace after the discovery of their Primarch and the subsequent integration of Han legionnaires. Often dismissed by other legions as archaic and niche, in the hands of a master they prove devastating.

 

Power Staff:

Power Staffs were the most widespread weapon among the Iron Monks of the legion. Based on the ironwood staves wielded by the monks of the Sinae peninsula, these adamantium rods were sheathed in a power field that could deflect enemy weapons and just as easily shatter armour and bone.

 

Kinetic Gauntlet:

Barely larger than a standard Mk. III gauntlet, Kinetic Gauntlets were a weapon devised by the Jade General himself. Able to amplify the impact of the wielder’s strike, what they lack in lethality they make up for in sheer stopping power. However their true strength lies in their weightlessness, allowing the wielder to fight as if bare-handed, a skill that the XVIIth Legion uniquely excelled in.

 

Twin Tiger Hooks:

Essentially a pair of specialized power swords, the Tiger Hooks were the epitome of the Warriors’ unique arsenal. Although difficult to master, a skilled warrior could use the hooks to rip an enemy’s weapon straight from their hands.

 

Han Broadsword:

Patterned after the great blades used by many Han warlords, these large power swords found favour among certain officers within the XVIIth legion. While heavy enough to cleave through most enemies with a two handed strike, they were just light enough to be wielded in one hand, though not without difficulty.

 

Also, would still like to hear thoughts on the above rules^

[~Drakzilla~]

Something I started working on today:

http://i.imgur.com/bxSS77o.jpg

[Demus Ragnok]

Dude that's awesome.