Dedicated Anti-Tank Suicide Squad

[Frater Cornelius]

Let's talk about dedicated tank-busting fellas. I have 160-180pts left in my list and I am a bit short on anti tank (heavy ones that is), so this subject is relevant to me and maybe to some of you as well.

 

I have scoured the codex and found three units that could potentially fit that role. Now, I am not talking about hard and expensive fellas like fully equipped Melta Vets in any given transport. I am talking about cheap and fast units whose job it is to kill annoying drop pods on objectives, kill or disable a Land Raider or damage a super-heavy and then die.

 

Number one are the Scions. 90pts for 5 dudes with 2 Melta Guns. They are reasonably cheap and they can deep strike relatively savely due to Move Through Cover and their small size. They sport good BS and they can take orders.

However, reserves and deep striking within 6" of a target is very unreliable and risky. Once they have landed, they are very slow as well and practically dead. Having this many risks and one trick for 90pts is a bit steep if you ask me.

 

Next up is the Devil Dog. While more expensive with 135pts, 150 with MM and Dozer, it can be counted as two Scion units in terms of cost.

It is fast and relatively durable. It may have poor BS but the Blast mitigates it. You can keep it in reserve when you are going second, ram a drop pod and Melta it. It is mobile enough to hunt pods across the board or go straights for the enemy's AV14.

However, it is rather big and hard to hide from enemy anti-tank, so after it has killed one vehicle, chances are good that you lose it. It can be shaken, stunned and immobilized. Losing one 150pts model so quickly or have it not be able to fire is quite inefficient.

 

Last but not least are the Rough Riders, to be fair, my personal favourites. No, no need to call the doctors just yet :D

For 80pts you get 5 dudes with 2 Meltas and a Melta Bomb. They are relatively easy to hide T1 or they can stay in reserve to come on and kill a drop pod. They are mobile enough to get within 6" of a tank, even if that means doing nothing for a turn and let it come close. The best part is that they are Cavalry, so pulling off a charge after the Meltas shot is rather easy. In melee they all have Krak Grenades and one Melta Bomb. This gives them two chances per turn to kill an enemy vehicle. Their Hunting Lances and mobility also allow them to hunt MSU units or finish off one last model. Their versatility makes them useful outside of their role.

Now, they do have poor BS. It is offset by their ability to melee, but it is still there. They also have piss poor survivability, so skillful positioning and deployment is key.

Still, they are cheap and if the enemy dedicated an entire unit to shoot them down, I still win in terms of point efficiency.

 

Anyway, let me know what you think ;)

[WarriorFish]

Small Scion squads are almost the definition of suicide squads here :P They can do much with some melta and also remain a threat so your opponent must deal with them. You could get a couple in for those points where they could do a lot. For what you get I think 90pts is a fair deal (though it should be better and give them pistols and CCWs...).

 

The Devil Dog is a big game hunter to me. The larger the target the easier to hit too, and it's fast enough to get where you need it too. Needs a more mechanised list to be effective I think as the Hellhound variants are capable so tend to be high on your opponent's list. It's too expensive for the role of a suicide squad though.

 

Rough Riders are cool, despite GW's best efforts :P A couple of melta is a good set up as they are fast so can get into range quicker. Unfortunately not that tough, they could really do with carapace. If your list doesn't have some ground troops in they will not last long enough to do anything as they die as quickly as normal Guardsmen.

[Rammael]

My consensus would be to take a second company command squad or a platoon command and took them up with 4 meltaguns shove them in a chimera or vendetta. You then get 4 melta shots and the unit is only max 100pts. The transport vehicle is then free to support the rest of your army then. My preference is always the vendetta in my list as it gets them there a lot quicker and safer. Plus it's las cannons really help back the squad up.

[Frater Cornelius]

@ Fish - I find Scions to troublesome to deal with vehicle hunting. 12" Plasma Rapid Fire is preferable, but you will not open AV14 with that. I prefer drop pods or 12" movement.

I agree that the Devil Dog is too expensive to be a suicide unit, but still does the job fairly well, if you ask me.

But I still prefer the Rider simply because they shoot, assault, can kill MSU as well and are the cheapest of the three. Their survivability is bad, but you do not expect them to survive. Kill a tank and eat fire is the plan. For that, I think they are solid. Unless of cause they get removed in the next book due to not having an official model right now.

[WarriorFish]

It's only ok for suicide units to die after they've done their job :P Rough Riders would need a few more numbers ideally in order to survive long enough to hunt a tank so that's what I'd try to squeeze in if you're going to run them.

[Frater Cornelius]

As for the PCS suggestion, it is a solid one. I have a PCS loaded with 3 Flamers and a Melta Bomb. That costs as much as two Meltas. Might add them to my triple Melta Vets and Rough Rider Meltacide units.

[Truesight]

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad, 4 deep striking melta guns with orders.  For when something on the other side of the board must die this turn.

[Emicus]

Now what is wrong with a little 135 points worth of Vanquisher? It's got the range to survive and the punch to take down anything. Even points spare.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

The Scion Command squad is nice but you have to take a normal scion squad in addition to the CS. Without any upgrades that is over 150 points. Once you start adding in special weapons, you're busting 200 points.

 

The Devil Dog is another AV12 chassis. It's fast, so that helps but any savvy opponent will recognize it for what it is and kill it if he has heavy armor.

 

Rough Riders are too fragile. Yes they're cheap but a stiff breeze will kill them. They don't have the mass needed to survive. Smart missiles, wyverns, whirlwinds and other things that don't need LOS to target you will make a mess of them.

 

I do like the regular CCS with four meltas. They cost around a 100 points with 4 meltas, they can give themselves orders and are small enough to hide or shove in the back of a vendetta. Going the latter route though means you will have almost 300 points in reserve.

 

I do like the vanquisher option as it has the range to be survivable. It will need to be bubble wrapped or an alpha strike will take it down.

 

Just my thoughts on the options presented. I've had a lot of discussions about how the Guard sucks at killing heavy armor. The guy who plays Guard as his primary army uses some drop podded vets and CCS with meltas as his suicide wave. It's somewhat effective but you give up other options.

 

I also think that flyer heavy lists like 5 flyrants or the ever present Daemons with Fateweaver and Be'lakor flying around summoning and casting invisibility on everything will give you problems. That's just based on personal experience.

[Truesight]

Now what is wrong with a little 135 points worth of Vanquisher? It's got the range to survive and the punch to take down anything. Even points spare.

50% chance to hit, then it has to pen, then it has to roll well on the vehicle damage table.  An ordinary Vanquisher is pretty underwhelming, even in its hyper specialised role, with Pask however it isn't bad.

[Frater Cornelius]

@ Wulfgar - Rough Riders are a psychological game more than anything else. If one TFC or a Wyvern Squadron fires at them and not my blob, it is a win in my book. Against Tau, they have pretty low value anyway and act as distraction and solo Crisis hunter.

But the thing is, if you do not have first turn, you do not have to deploy them. Keep them in reserve. They get on, move 12" and may have some target for their Melta already, like a Drop Pod, a transport at your door step or a Crisis that has dropped in.

I am well aware that they are no SM bikes, but I do not expect them to do a Biker's job in the first place ;)

[Emicus]

​50% chance to hit is true. But it's got the range to sit back and survive to shoot again. S8 and armourbane for 2d6 to pen is pretty decent when the average is 7, 7+8 means on average you should pen AV14. 10 points more and you have a Lascannon as well. Pask costs 65 points, really not sure if that is worth it for +1 BS and re-rolls.

A suicide Scion squad likely to be more efficient at Kill+and+be+Killed though if you really need to take out a target.​

[Frater Cornelius]

A Vanquisher will shoot 5-7 times per game, which is around 3 hits and no likely explosions. Either you have an AP1 weapon or you glance the enemy to death. AP2 isn't what it was against tanks. My current Platoon pumps out 14-18 S7 shots, depending on Rapid Fire range, has Ld10 + Vox for Tank Hunter and has a good chance to get re-rolls to hit or guaranteed Preferred Enemy. That sort of Dakka is needed to do the glancing work. If that is not available, you need to stack AP1, which still works reasonably well in many cases. Hence why I am a fan of the RR, since they get 2 shots at range and another bomb in melee, which is pretty excellent for their points, fragility notwithstanding.

[march10k]

Now what is wrong with a little 135 points worth of Vanquisher? It's got the range to survive and the punch to take down anything. Even points spare.

 

 

 

Now what is wrong with a little 135 points worth of Vanquisher? It's got the range to survive and the punch to take down anything. Even points spare.

50% chance to hit, then it has to pen, then it has to roll well on the vehicle damage table.  An ordinary Vanquisher is pretty underwhelming, even in its hyper specialised role, with Pask however it isn't bad.

 

 

 

​50% chance to hit is true. But it's got the range to sit back and survive to shoot again. S8 and armourbane for 2d6 to pen is pretty decent when the average is 7, 7+8 means on average you should pen AV14. 10 points more and you have a Lascannon as well. Pask costs 65 points, really not sure if that is worth it for +1 BS and re-rolls.

 

A suicide Scion squad likely to be more efficient at Kill+and+be+Killed though if you really need to take out a target.​

 

 

All of this...I've never been a fan of a "suicide" squad of any sort.  I'm flabbergasted that the same people (generalizing here, not sure what any given one of you thinks of suicide melta or HK missiles) who look down their noses at a ten point HK missile would sing the praises of a suicide melta unit that costs ten times as much.  The argument of "well, you only get one shot, you might miss, you might not pen, you might not kill" seems like it should apply equally against both, but that's not how people see it.  They seem to assume that a number of HK missiles equal to the points cost of a suicide melta squad will just not kill anything.  I'm not saying that I'm a fan of HK missiles, what I'm saying is that I'm not a fan of spending 1/10 of your points on something that you fully expect to die after a single round of shooting that may or may not achieve the desired effect.  Either you're at high risk of getting killed before getting in range (transport or scatter), or you're relying on a lot of points external to the unit (deepstrike beacon that might also be killed!) to be sure of even getting the shot off.  Then you still have to hit and penetrate to even be assured of stripping an HP, and it's certainly no guarantee of a kill.

 

For the points, give me a generic vanquisher with a hull lascannon.  Two shots a turn will average one hit, and instead of giving away points in return, the enemy actually has to work pretty hard to kill the tank.  If it does hit, the vanquisher cannon has exactly the same pen profile as half-range melta, only from across the table.  Of course, it's only AP2, not AP1...but it also isn't nerfed by ceramite armor (admittedly uncommon).  Obviously, paskquisher is better, but a stock vanquisher is a hell of a lot better in my book than a suicide squad.  If you're playing VP, you're giving the enemy a free one in exchange for a chance at getting one yourself, and unless you're blasting a land raider with four BS4 meltaguns at point-blank range, the chances of getting that kill are depressing in any event.

 

 

 I am a fan of the RR, [...], fragility notwithstanding.

 

 

I understand, and I have a nice RR dual melta squadron mounted on ogre kingdoms hunting cats.  But I'd never field them in a competitive setting, precisely because of its combination of killing power and paper armor.  It's just too dangerous for any enemy to ignore, and it's just too easy to kill.  

[Frater Cornelius]

Personally, I consider the Vanquisher one of the weaker variants. But that isn't the topic anyway. A Vanquisher is not a Meltacide squad and thus does not really add anything. There is a reason I started a topic about Meltacide as opposed to long ranged anti-tank options ;)

[Truesight]

I'll throw another option out there that can fulfill a low investment armour killing role:  Scout sentinels with Autocannons.  A couple of these outflanking will put some pain onto a tank, not much likes strength 7 to the rear armour, and they are dirt cheap too.

 

Slightly off topic- The most efficient guard anti armour is rapier laser destroyers.  Twin linked toughness 7 lascannons will collect many xenos tears, for the same price as those scout sentinels with autocannons, madness.

[Frater Cornelius]

What slot is the Rapier in?

[Truesight]

Squad of 1-3 in Heavy Support.

[WarriorFish]

I always liked what I dubbed the "Hunter Killer storm". Load up on HKs and unleash them all first turn - gives your opening salvo a great leg up and can set the entire game for you especially with first turn. Of course works best when you've got enough vehicles on the table to do this and it's certainly a better than suicide squads when your list isn't intending to get too close. The reason I don't do this any more is because I feel we need to squeeze the most out of every point so one off upgrades aren't good as something you can use multiple times.

It's one of the reasons I don't like suicide squads. I'll send units in for dangerous missions that might be one way tickets but that'll be mission critical actions and I'll never send them unsupported. Look after your troops and they will reward you with victory It's all about using the points best for your particular list and how you want it to run, same with anything else

[GreenPlasma]

HKs are spectacular on swarms of Taurox Primes, who deliver at BS4 and on a Fast platform which can target side armour. Given the relative fragility of the Prime, it's essential to project as much early firepower as possible to survive. So you might as well cough up your miserly 10pts and go all in. HKs also help cover your T1 shortfalls if you're running Volleygun/ML Primes, who can then switch roles from fire support to hunt down 3+ Elites and MCs.

 

Lots of weapons have their uses, but you need to either shape or recognize the context they're best used in.

 

Example, I wouldn't necessarily give up on the Vanquisher as an option. Dropping the Vendetta and Meltavets gives you 350pts. A Tank Commander HQ (2x Vanquishers w/Lascannons) will then cost you 320pts. That leaves you with 30pts; making the Inquisitor a Psyker guarantees access to Prescience and will help protect your blob by giving them a +1 DtW modifier. The Vanquishers and the blob provide mutual protection, the Psyker is your key enabler, and this lets you use your D6 Warp Charges that are currently a wasted resource.

 

Given Prescience, long story short you have an 83% chance every turn to pen AV14 on the Main Gun alone. Still want more AP1 to open up Knights at close range? Reshuffle your list to bring in 4x Sponson Multimeltas for 40pts. Worried about survivability? Enginseers are 40pts each and will give your blob more punch in CC.

 

You don't have the mobility, saturation or enablers to support DS Melta or an isolated threat like the Melta Dog. Furthermore these units don't synergize with your main force, either. I think RR have massive potential as a MSU skirmisher protecting your own lines, but they're not resilient enough to project force up the table.

 

Rapier Destroyers with Coteaz are a different story. Coteaz can maybe tank for the squad on his 2+, his LD will help out in general and obviously his Interception rule is bonkers with the firepower available. There's a decent chance of pinning Marine squads exiting wrecked Drop Pods and that's obviously then the chance for RRs to shine. Between rerolling Seize, shutting down Scout and discouraging DS, you're wrecking the enemy's deployment options and that gives you a massive advantage in controlling the fight. You'd want to confirm the rules for joining ICs to artillery -- there might be some curveballs in there.

 

I think Vanquishers are a more stylish and less gimmicky option than Superheavies, FW and wombo-combos with named characters; but whatever you choose, keep synergy, mutual support, and overall strategy in mind.

[Emicus]

Might be a matter of perspective. I don't feel like I need to kill all my opponents vehicle's, maiming them, rendering insufficient, is often enough. Glancing in this regard is useless, penning is very likely to accomplish *something*.

 

Doesn't apply to transports of course, although keeping them in place for a turn puts a wrench in the opponents plans and I'll rather move on to shooting a different target than kill it dead.

 

Had a lovely game vs heretic guard not too long ago. In one turn I immobilized a Soulgrinder, weapon destroyed a plasmacutioner and stunned a Punisher. I could have killed either of them dead and faced the wrath of the others, but it saved me from tremendous shooting in his turn turn, before I could smoke the Russes the following turn. Soul grinder being skirted around, with guns firmly targeting the wrong direction.

[Emicus]

In addition. Throwing enough melta to "pen something to death"/ guarantee a kill is not relying on explosion results either. Explosions are a rare and wonderful bonus in my book, but not something to rely on.

[march10k]

Immer,

 

I suppose that a heavy 1 turret at BS3 has to be counted among the weakest russ variants, no matter what happens if you hit (virtual auto-pen at AP2 isn't chopped liver, it's caviar!), but I wasn't trying to compare it against other variants of the russ, I was offering it as an alternative to suicide squads...it starts shooting on turn one, and it's likely to get a lot more than one turn of shooting while going from "free VP"  to "AV14, and there are bigger threats to focus on" on the survivability scale.  For similar points to a suicide melta unit, it's not only likely to achieve more penetrating hits over the course of a game, it's likely to survive the game.  If you think of it in terms of a suicide melta squad's firepower (perhaps more) starting earlier and lasting longer with astronomically less likelihood of dying, it's a good alternative.  /edit/  It does suffer from being a HS option, though...which is relevant if you are only running one FOC...

[librisrouge]

Don't overlook the psychological benefit of those two deep striking melta scion units. They can do a lot more than just kill. They can drop on objectives, or secure you linebreaker. Plus, many enemies will hesitate to advance until they arrive so that you cannot chance them behind something. S8 seems just fine when you only have to get through a Russ' rear 10, instead of side 13. Now you don't need to worry about 6" but can be fine with 12"...and the enemy knows it.

[Frater Cornelius]

@ march - No worries bud. It is always useful to hear another opinion. Your last sentence hit the head on the nail though. I have no HS slots left, only FA and Elite. My meta, and by extension the global tournament Meta, does not support the use of a tank Commander either due to damage spilling over. Overspilling through shooting is very common these days. I could take two Russ in the HQ section, but I would lose them rather quickly to long-ranged Haywire, Grav or D. Hence why I like to keep separate units to mitigate that. That is the reason why I am looking for AV14-busting Elites or FA as an alternative, which support the Meltacide style as opposed the consistency of the Russ. My list has a solid enough field presence, so that I can allow myself 160-180pts of distraction/Meltacide units ;)