CoffeeGrunt Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Each has their strengths and weaknesses, and it's worth trying them all out. I find my Vanquisher Commander reliable on the Pen and fairly reliable to Hit, but woeful with regards to actually getting past inevitable Cover Saves, or doing anything of worth on the Vehicle Damage Table. My opponents often keep their big guns hidden up in Ruins so they get solid Cover while dishing out fire. Additionally, a Vanquisher against Tyranids or non-vehicular armies is just an expensive pair of Lascannons. Meltaguns are at least supplementing a weapon that will do some work on Scions, never underestimate a couple of HSLGs against a Carnifex with Bring It Down activated. A lucky 6 or two can really put the hurt on. Not to mention the ability to capture a vacated point, or contest a non-Objective Secured one by standing next to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4142783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I agree that AP1 is much better than AP2 on the pen table, with twice the chance of a "destroyed" result and a significantly diminished chance of "shaken." The problem with cover saves is often just as bad for melta as it is for longer-ranged shooting, though. Additionally, a Vanquisher against Tyranids or non-vehicular armies is just an expensive pair of Lascannons. Meltaguns are at least supplementing a weapon that will do some work on Scions, never underestimate a couple of HSLGs against a Carnifex with Bring It Down activated. A lucky 6 or two can really put the hurt on. Okay, that really is a stretch. A vanquisher against a carnie is the same as a pair of meltaguns against a carnie...the long shot at a hellgun wound is more than offset by the stormtroopers being in a hell of a lot more danger inside tyranid lines than a vanquisher is sniping from behind friendly lines! It's true that a deepstriking squad can figure in the objective-capping game...as long as it's alive and in range of the objective. That's equally true of a tank...with the difference that the objective in question is probably a near one, not a deep one, and that the tank is more likely to live long enough for that objective-camping to be effective. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4143744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I agree that AP1 is much better than AP2 on the pen table, with twice the chance of a "destroyed" result and a significantly diminished chance of "shaken." The problem with cover saves is often just as bad for melta as it is for longer-ranged shooting, though. Additionally, a Vanquisher against Tyranids or non-vehicular armies is just an expensive pair of Lascannons. Meltaguns are at least supplementing a weapon that will do some work on Scions, never underestimate a couple of HSLGs against a Carnifex with Bring It Down activated. A lucky 6 or two can really put the hurt on. Okay, that really is a stretch. A vanquisher against a carnie is the same as a pair of meltaguns against a carnie...the long shot at a hellgun wound is more than offset by the stormtroopers being in a hell of a lot more danger inside tyranid lines than a vanquisher is sniping from behind friendly lines! It's true that a deepstriking squad can figure in the objective-capping game...as long as it's alive and in range of the objective. That's equally true of a tank...with the difference that the objective in question is probably a near one, not a deep one, and that the tank is more likely to live long enough for that objective-camping to be effective. Them being significantly cheaper and not taking up valuable Heavy Support slots offsets that, though. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4144040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenPlasma Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Against a Carnifex you definitely want 4x Scions with plasma! They are also passable anti-tank with the right orders. With Rending (MT order) you can punch through AV14, though it's going to be unreliable without getting Tank Hunter somehow. Add the Inquisitor with the Psycannon and you might even hull out a Land Raider with some luck. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4144112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I agree that AP1 is much better than AP2 on the pen table, with twice the chance of a "destroyed" result and a significantly diminished chance of "shaken." The problem with cover saves is often just as bad for melta as it is for longer-ranged shooting, though. Additionally, a Vanquisher against Tyranids or non-vehicular armies is just an expensive pair of Lascannons. Meltaguns are at least supplementing a weapon that will do some work on Scions, never underestimate a couple of HSLGs against a Carnifex with Bring It Down activated. A lucky 6 or two can really put the hurt on. Okay, that really is a stretch. A vanquisher against a carnie is the same as a pair of meltaguns against a carnie...the long shot at a hellgun wound is more than offset by the stormtroopers being in a hell of a lot more danger inside tyranid lines than a vanquisher is sniping from behind friendly lines! It's true that a deepstriking squad can figure in the objective-capping game...as long as it's alive and in range of the objective. That's equally true of a tank...with the difference that the objective in question is probably a near one, not a deep one, and that the tank is more likely to live long enough for that objective-camping to be effective. Them being significantly cheaper and not taking up valuable Heavy Support slots offsets that, though. They are cheaper...but saying "it's okay if they die because they are cheaper than the alternative that would have lived" is like saying "I don't need it, but I'll buy it because it's on sale," which is heard from the mouths of women daily, so it must be some kind of wisdom, right? Ok, you win! As for the HS slot...it depends. I invariably field at least four veteran squads as it is, so the only "tax" for unlocking three more HS slots would be a second HQ...wait, that could be the vanquisher in question, only he'd need a wingman...hmm...one of my HS tanks pulled up to fill that role, with split fire to make wasted shots less common? Now I've gone from a shortage of HS slots to excess! Of course, this relies on me already having four troops choices, which I generally do anyway. But anyway, I already acknowledged to Immer that it's a consideration. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4144146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenPlasma Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Steel Host is as easy way to unlock a few tanks too. There's a formation bonus as well Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4144305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Dunno about you, but my tanks don't last under any kind of attention. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4144378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emicus Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 I don't think any unit in the game can survive attention Coffegrunt. Question is how much it can stand up to re: taking additional attention, saving other units. Perhaps you simply need more tanks? In my experience the opposition only brings a limited amount of AT, like they bring a limited amount of anti infantry, anti air, etc. So by bringing a balanced set of each of the above, you just hand 'em good targets for each of their weapons. So overload 'em. That's the way to survive! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4144529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 People are very much aware of my predilection for tanks these days. I think my taking up of Guard single-handedly pushed our local meta into cramming AT into everything. :P I dunno, I personally never run the Scion Suicide Squad for most of the reasons March posited, but I'm playing devil's advocate as I can understand why they'd appeal. They're also the only real option our Tempestus-only forumgoers can get. I personally love the Medusa with Bastion Breacher shells, it's the most powerful AT gun in terms of raw strength, has AP1 and that tasty Armourbane, for only 5pts more than a Vanquisher. Sadly, it's also fragile as heck, so mine takes fire almost immediately. I have a regular CSM opponent who takes Armoured Ceramite on his Spartan Assault Tanks, so I needed non-Melta solutions anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4144573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 People are very much aware of my predilection for tanks these days. I think my taking up of Guard single-handedly pushed our local meta into cramming AT into everything. Now spring infantry companies on them A lively meta is an interesting one As for AT squads, as I've said before there are many ways of skinning a xeno in our codex and different things work in different situations. Everyone has a different meta in some way, so there's never a universal answer which is what makes our discussions all the more interesting. It's never a bad idea to experiment, maybe try someone else's ideas out and see how it goes. Unless you're going to a tournament that is, probably best to stick to what you know then Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4144593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 People are very much aware of my predilection for tanks these days. I think my taking up of Guard single-handedly pushed our local meta into cramming AT into everything. Now spring infantry companies on them A lively meta is an interesting one I do, much to the ire of our local Tyranid player! :P His face when I turned up with a horde of Infantry and Aircraft after a long stint of tanks was priceless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4144728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 I like my meltagun SWS for the job, actually... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4144898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 I find that a combination of demolishers and paskquisher is pretty reliable in my meta. The demolishers are of course more than capable of penning tanks, flesh, and TDA, under the theme of "the biggest gun kills everything," they have AV11 rear armor, which is surprisingly frustrating for my opponents, and enough HP to get the job done before dying in turn (actually, I lose an average of one per game...which is good when shoving two of them in the enemy's face from turn one)...all while keeping the enemy's eye off of my warlord...who quietly autopens everything in sight from a lonely corner of the battlefield. Other than Pask's LRBT wingman (until I get a replacement turret from FW to match his gun to Pask's), those two demolishers are the only tanks that I run any more. AV12 spam is just so effective that I don't have the points or need for proper tanks, LOL. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4144944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Caine 24th Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 There's a lot of really good points here. Personally (and very similar to the scions) I used to deep strike blood angel assault squads with 2 meltaguns. It often worked destroying or slowing down tanks. Deep strike gave me a lot of flexibiliy to apply force in a particular point of concentration. Also, sometimes like stated above, I just ignored kill power and went for objectives. However, when this worked I had reliable reserves, 1D6 scatter and an easier vehicle damage table. I stopped using this tactic when my meta shifted to lots of vehicles with cover saves and some invulnerable saves. Two melta shots was just not enough for the unit to do what I planned/hoped it would do. I kind of like the idea of deep striking the scions in cover. As was said, if they survive, they'll force the enemy to deal with them before exposing side or rear armor while advancing. I mean, they aren't tough, but they can threaten a lot of different units in the game. So, with cover they might be able to sit and wait, forcing the enemy to react. ... it still seems risky as they could get isolated quickly. I'm not a huge fan of the leman russ sitting in the back at BS3. Well, that and since 1997 in any given meaningful dice roll I will roll at least a single 1. I haven't made up my mind on the rapier laser destroyers yet, but Toughness often beats armour values, and I've seen some conversion parts online that might be a reasonably cheap way to get a unit started. There's real promise in a unit than can receive orders with that kind of weapon (36" range is good, not great). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4145171 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truesight Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Another option: Skyhammer Annihilation Force. Keep it cheap, 2 five man jump pack assault squads 2 flamers with melta bombs, and 2 five man devestators in pods with multi-meltas. All four units come in out of deep strike turn 1, and can charge and shoot normally. Assault squads charge tanks with Krak and Melta bombs, and devestators each put 4 multimelta shots into anything armoured. Under 500 points for 20 marines with that much mobile pain is a steal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4145266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Let's try and keep this more focused on the Guard, there are plenty of places on the B&C to discuss Marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4145312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamansky Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 My friend once put 20 jokaeros into Stormlord added 3 engineseers with servitors and installed the whole thing on skyshield landing pad. That was quite effective anti-tank unit. It costed as a Boeing 747 in points but it was real rage collector. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4146193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 That is technically impossible, since a Henchmen unit can only include up to 12 members and only one unit can enter a transport at the time. Is that different for SH? I think not. Unless it is Apoc, but that does not count. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4146219 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Superheavy Transports may carry multiple units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4146230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 Interesting. Can those units target enemy units independently of each other? Because then you might consider not blobing up and not attaching shooty IC to get the greatest distrubtion of dakka. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4146235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamansky Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Interesting. Can those units target enemy units independently of each other? Because then you might consider not blobing up and not attaching shooty IC to get the greatest distrubtion of dakka. Yep. and stormlord has 20 firepoints. so he had 2x10 independant lascannon batteries plus stormlords main gun and sponsons. The greates fire-magnet i ever seen in 2500pts games. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4146239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 Well, well. While not enough to usurp the top spot of BB variants in my book (the Stormsword still has that honour), but it is a far closer match-up now. Colour me impressed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4146259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 It's the ultimate transport, letting Guard use all their guns but without the vulnerability of being squishy :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4146273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamansky Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 The real problem was to get 20 jokaero models ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4146275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 It's the ultimate transport, letting Guard use all their guns but without the vulnerability of being squishy :D When suddenly, Skitarii Drop Pod spam. The Arch Nemesis of close to any IG list out there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312138-dedicated-anti-tank-suicide-squad/page/2/#findComment-4146278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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