If Konor had lived....

[Remus Ventanus.]

So i have been running theoreticals on how the Heresy, and Guilliman himself would be if konor had never died. It is in my opinion that Guillimans loyalty would be to Konor above the Emperor. I do think Konor would accept the emperor, as He and Guilliman share many traits, but if in some hypothetical situation Konor turned against the Emperor, I believe Guilliman would also. 

[Kriegriss]

yet more evidence that the XIII are really just self serving :cusss along with there Imperium secundus spawning gene father ... just jokes, jokes fella but i doubt it on all counts man Konor and Gillyman are both pragmatic enough to not go against the big emps and would more likely try to make as much good outa being on the winning side as they could

[Remus Ventanus.]

yet more evidence that the XIII are really just self serving :cusss along with there Imperium secundus spawning gene father ... just jokes, jokes fella but i doubt it on all counts man Konor and Gillyman are both pragmatic enough to not go against the big emps and would more likely try to make as much good outa being on the winning side as they could

Not denying we care more about our own empire ;)

 

And yes in all likelyness neither would turn, but if for some reason Konor did, what would guilliman do.

[Kriegriss]

LOL probably kill Konor as an example of what is done to traitors and flaunt it around blabbing about how unbiased and loyal he is while secretly building an autonomous power base.

 

I don't really know Konor and i have read no fluff about him but if i where Gilly i would drive him insane and then keep him in a stasis field in my deepest darkest dungeon ...oh wait...

[Remus Ventanus.]

LOL probably kill Konor as an example of what is done to traitors and flaunt it around blabbing about how unbiased and loyal he is while secretly building an autonomous power base.

 

I don't really know Konor and i have read no fluff about him but if i where Gilly i would drive him insane and then keep him in a stasis field in my deepest darkest dungeon ...oh wait...

In tempest, those that killed konor were hung by guilliman....I think he would do the same to the emperor!:D

 

We all know guilliman loves parent figures...I mean he has a mom during 30k! I'm sure he would be a daddy's boy and never leave konor

[SkimaskMohawk]

Kor Phaeron 2.0

[Remus Ventanus.]

Kor Phaeron 2.0

I never even considered that. Just what we need....another halfstartes running around

[Conn Eremon]

Honestly, if Konor was still alive?

 

Replace most mention of his Mamzel with Konor in that particular book, with minimal changes to accommodate change of character. Done.

 

The change is big, for Roboute, but at the end of the day, to the galaxy or the Heresy at large? I don't see it having any impact. If Konor goes evil? I don't think he would. But if he did? I don't think he would live long enough to have an impact, beyond a footnote in Guilliman's history as the father he killed.

 

Sure, you have Luther and the Lion, but Konor was no Luther, and would not fulfill a similar role. He certainly wouldn't be made a halfstartes. At best, he'd have Euten's job, and originally that might mean more authority and legitimacy, but nearly two centuries later there would be little difference between the two's role or position.

 

In my opinion, the impact a surviving Konor would have on this setting is a modified pre-Imperial contact history for Guilliman, and nothing more.

[Remus Ventanus.]

Honestly, if Konor was still alive?

 

Replace most mention of his Mamzel with Konor in that particular book, with minimal changes to accommodate change of character. Done.

 

The change is big, for Roboute, but at the end of the day, to the galaxy or the Heresy at large? I don't see it having any impact. If Konor goes evil? I don't think he would. But if he did? I don't think he would live long enough to have an impact, beyond a footnote in Guilliman's history as the father he killed.

 

Sure, you have Luther and the Lion, but Konor was no Luther, and would not fulfill a similar role. He certainly wouldn't be made a halfstartes. At best, he'd have Euten's job, and originally that might mean more authority and legitimacy, but nearly two centuries later there would be little difference between the two's role or position.

 

In my opinion, the impact a surviving Konor would have on this setting is a modified pre-Imperial contact history for Guilliman, and nothing more.

Im not sure, Konor had a massive influence over roboute. Much more of a father then the emperor ever was. 

 

And i hope you are joking about the ultras not having an impact if konor did turn. Any loyal legion turning would certainly be catastrphic for the loyalits, especially one as big as the ultras.

 

Konor is much more of a figure then luther is to their respective primarchs. I just cant see guilliman wanting to be above konor. I think he would always want to follow him, even is he is the ruler of the 500 worlds.

[Kriegriss]

well of course you think that you're an ultra so you "know" that you're primarch robot girly man is the most perfect of perfecticus primarchs and would never do anything wrong to his mortal daddy and has no flaws or anything. but the rest of us "know" he has a dark side and accept that if Konor got in the way of Gillis big plans he would smush that puny mortal like a bug

[Conn Eremon]

Im not sure, Konor had a massive influence over roboute. Much more of a father then the emperor ever was.

I think you might be attributing more meaning than is really there. We don't actually know what Guilliman's emotional attachment was to Konor. I think we can both agree that there was an attachment, but the extent of it is an unknown quality.

 

But I would contest the idea that Konor would have mattered more to Guilliman than the Emperor. In both cases, I believe there is a third option. The Imperium matters more to Guilliman than either father figures. My evidence for this is Unremembered Empire, where we see that he does care for the Emperor on a personal level but makes all of his decisions purely with the intent of keeping as much of the Imperium as the Imperium as he could from his disadvantaged position. When the decision came to risk exposure and destruction at the hands of a greater enemy, for the sake of the Emperor's survival, or utilize all forces he could get his hands on for the protection of what little of the Imperium he could reach from that greater enemy, there was little hesitation.

 

He has already chosen the Imperium over a father. It wouldn't be a question of Konor or the Emperor. If Konor threatened the Imperium, he would put his father down.

 

I fully believe he would attempt the same with the Emperor, if he ever came to that same conclusion. The Avenging Son could just of easily have walked the path of Horus. Just not by his adopted father leading him down it.

 

And i hope you are joking about the ultras not having an impact if konor did turn. Any loyal legion turning would certainly be catastrphic for the loyalits, especially one as big as the ultras.

Oh yes, any loyal legion turning would be catastrophic.

 

But Konor turning would mean the XIII putting down an insurrection on Macragge and possibly other Ultramar worlds. An insurrection that would not extend into the Ultramarines themselves.

 

For the Ultramarines to turn would require Guilliman to turn, which I think would require much more than Konor surviving and turning to achieve.

 

Konor is much more of a figure then luther is to their respective primarchs. I just cant see guilliman wanting to be above konor. I think he would always want to follow him, even is he is the ruler of the 500 worlds.

How? Why? Where is the basis for that? This links to the above, I feel like you are attributing something that is not shown to us in any source. What we have is that Konor was a Consul, equal to Gallan but morally superior. Guilliman is fond of his father's memory, and likely much of what he is came from Konor's parentage. What little we see of his capabilities or competence shows us that he was a effective planetary governor, but nothing else.

 

But Luther is more that. Much more. The greatest Calibanite to have ever lived, if not for the Lion himself. And yet still, a character proven equal to the Lion in certain ways, such as the conquest of Caliban being attributed to the efforts of Luther as much as it is the Lion. Luther had a much greater potential as a traitor than Konor ever would have. He had a greater relationship, being both father, brother and peer, and he had greater potential, as a mortal who could achieve similar feats of fame and glory as a Primarch, in the days of that Primarch.

 

It is certainly true that we have much more on Luther than Konor, but what we do have points to Luther as the greater of the two in terms of traitor-potential.

 

 

Please note, this is all "in my opinion." If you have some interest in pursuing that idea and doing something with it, then really it all comes down to how well it is written. Go for it.

[Remus Ventanus.]

 

Im not sure, Konor had a massive influence over roboute. Much more of a father then the emperor ever was.

I think you might be attributing more meaning than is really there. We don't actually know what Guilliman's emotional attachment was to Konor. I think we can both agree that there was an attachment, but the extent of it is an unknown quality.

But I would contest the idea that Konor would have mattered more to Guilliman than the Emperor. In both cases, I believe there is a third option. The Imperium matters more to Guilliman than either father figures. My evidence for this is Unremembered Empire, where we see that he does care for the Emperor on a personal level but makes all of his decisions purely with the intent of keeping as much of the Imperium as the Imperium as he could from his disadvantaged position. When the decision came to risk exposure and destruction at the hands of a greater enemy, for the sake of the Emperor's survival, or utilize all forces he could get his hands on for the protection of what little of the Imperium he could reach from that greater enemy, there was little hesitation.

He has already chosen the Imperium over a father. It wouldn't be a question of Konor or the Emperor. If Konor threatened the Imperium, he would put his father down.

I fully believe he would attempt the same with the Emperor, if he ever came to that same conclusion. The Avenging Son could just of easily have walked the path of Horus. Just not by his adopted father leading him down it.

And i hope you are joking about the ultras not having an impact if konor did turn. Any loyal legion turning would certainly be catastrphic for the loyalits, especially one as big as the ultras.

Oh yes, any loyal legion turning would be catastrophic.

But Konor turning would mean the XIII putting down an insurrection on Macragge and possibly other Ultramar worlds. An insurrection that would not extend into the Ultramarines themselves.

For the Ultramarines to turn would require Guilliman to turn, which I think would require much more than Konor surviving and turning to achieve.

Konor is much more of a figure then luther is to their respective primarchs. I just cant see guilliman wanting to be above konor. I think he would always want to follow him, even is he is the ruler of the 500 worlds.

How? Why? Where is the basis for that? This links to the above, I feel like you are attributing something that is not shown to us in any source. What we have is that Konor was a Consul, equal to Gallan but morally superior. Guilliman is fond of his father's memory, and likely much of what he is came from Konor's parentage. What little we see of his capabilities or competence shows us that he was a effective planetary governor, but nothing else.

But Luther is more that. Much more. The greatest Calibanite to have ever lived, if not for the Lion himself. And yet still, a character proven equal to the Lion in certain ways, such as the conquest of Caliban being attributed to the efforts of Luther as much as it is the Lion. Luther had a much greater potential as a traitor than Konor ever would have. He had a greater relationship, being both father, brother and peer, and he had greater potential, as a mortal who could achieve similar feats of fame and glory as a Primarch, in the days of that Primarch.

It is certainly true that we have much more on Luther than Konor, but what we do have points to Luther as the greater of the two in terms of traitor-potential.

Please note, this is all "in my opinion." If you have some interest in pursuing that idea and doing something with it, then really it all comes down to how well it is written. Go for it.

I totally agree with your first point and well put. I suppose it comes down to"is Guillimans ultramar the imperium he cares more for"

 

i believe konor is a more important figure over Luther because no matter what, a parent is the most important thing in ones life. Guilliman is unique in that he is the only primacy to have a real family. Now I'm in agreement that Luther is by far a better warrior and perhaps leader, but for influence over their respective primarchs, imo konor would have a bigger one. There are no solid facts to back this up, but going off my experiences, this holds true.

 

I'll give Guillimans early life in tempest a re read and will try and see if I can find anything

[apologist]

Given what we know of his character, I think it's a fair statement that Guilliman would put duty before personal feelings; which is essentially what Conn Eremonn says in his eloquent and well-argued post. I agree with Conn that Guilliman would – however reluctantly – move against (or attempt to kill!) the Emperor or Konor if it threatened the Imperium. We have evidence of that from the existence of Imperium Secundus. That's not to say Guilliman is disloyal; merely that his faith is in the abstract Imperial Truth rather than a person; even an embodiment of the concept. That's clear from the soul-searching we see in Unremembered Empire.

 

So, with the assumption that Guilliman is presented with a decision that does not affect his broader duty, but is restricted to his personal feelings, we can look at his choice between the Emperor and Konor. Guilliman's relationship with Konor has clear parallels with Augustus and Julius Caesar, and Macragge with Rome; so perhaps we might get some clues from that?

 

Rome and the Imperium (Macragge in particular) have similarities in culture; so I don't think it's too far a stretch to suggest that the father-son dynamic is different in both cases from a modern-day western father-son relationship. There would be far more emphasis on duty and responsibilities towards the state beyond the immediate family, in contrast with personal dynamics and ideas of love and loyalty over and above the broader community.

 

Julius Caesar was Augustus' uncle, which makes an interesting parallel – a definite father figure, but not a literal father. Konor fits in there quite nicely – an adoptive father. However, the relationship would have been a very Roman mix of filial loyalty and political nous. Would Konor and Guilliman have had a similar relationship, or more of a modern-day affectionate one? That might affect the decision.

 

Secondly, there's a big difference between the Emperor – absent through Guilliman's childhood – and Augustus' human father. How would the mysterious warp affect Guilliman's decision? 

 

Ultimately, I think we've got too little to go on – and too many unanswerable questions – for a 'realistic' answer on whether Guilliman would choose his adoptive father over his gene-father; and so your decision will come down to practicalities. If you have a story in mind, the answer is clear – pick whichever serves your narrative  better. :)

 

Best of luck; and thanks for the interesting idea. One to muse upon, I think :)

[Theredknight]

Roboute' what the hell do you think you are doing with my little mobile phone thing, do you know the inter system mess you have caused by playing angry birds on it?!

bad boy, get over my knee for spanked botty, then get to your room without and supper. And no more astro telepathy tv for you for a week!

[Daemon2027]

Snip

 

So whose Guilliman's Agrippa. I knew he couldn't be a master tactition ;)

[Remus Ventanus.]

Given what we know of his character, I think it's a fair statement that Guilliman would put duty before personal feelings; which is essentially what Conn Eremonn says in his eloquent and well-argued post. I agree with Conn that Guilliman would – however reluctantly – move against (or attempt to kill!) the Emperor or Konor if it threatened the Imperium. We have evidence of that from the existence of Imperium Secundus. That's not to say Guilliman is disloyal; merely that his faith is in the abstract Imperial Truth rather than a person; even an embodiment of the concept. That's clear from the soul-searching we see in Unremembered Empire.

So, with the assumption that Guilliman is presented with a decision that does not affect his broader duty, but is restricted to his personal feelings, we can look at his choice between the Emperor and Konor. Guilliman's relationship with Konor has clear parallels with Augustus and Julius Caesar, and Macragge with Rome; so perhaps we might get some clues from that?

Rome and the Imperium (Macragge in particular) have similarities in culture; so I don't think it's too far a stretch to suggest that the father-son dynamic is different in both cases from a modern-day western father-son relationship. There would be far more emphasis on duty and responsibilities towards the state beyond the immediate family, in contrast with personal dynamics and ideas of love and loyalty over and above the broader community.

Julius Caesar was Augustus' uncle, which makes an interesting parallel – a definite father figure, but not a literal father. Konor fits in there quite nicely – an adoptive father. However, the relationship would have been a very Roman mix of filial loyalty and political nous. Would Konor and Guilliman have had a similar relationship, or more of a modern-day affectionate one? That might affect the decision.

Secondly, there's a big difference between the Emperor – absent through Guilliman's childhood – and Augustus' human father. How would the mysterious warp affect Guilliman's decision?

Ultimately, I think we've got too little to go on – and too many unanswerable questions – for a 'realistic' answer on whether Guilliman would choose his adoptive father over his gene-father; and so your decision will come down to practicalities. If you have a story in mind, the answer is clear – pick whichever serves your narrative better.

Best of luck; and thanks for the interesting idea. One to muse upon, I think

Tis an honor to have the greatest true scaler here.....And a well put. Throne a story on guillimans early life on macragge would be so interesting. Hell on all of the primarchs early lives.

Roboute' what the hell do you think you are doing with my little mobile phone thing, do you know the inter system mess you have caused by playing angry birds on it?!

bad boy, get over my knee for spanked botty, then get to your room without and supper. And no more astro telepathy tv for you for a week!

He is still getting spanked by Euten in m31!

[lokkorex]

Amen to that brother, it would be glourious.