What are Company Veterans good for?

[Karhedron]

Has anyone found a use for Company Veterans. They seem to be disctinctly inferior to codex Sternguard (albeit cheaper). They are basically Tactical Marines with an extra attack and +1Ld.

 

I don't see any point in them with bolters, just take Tactical Marines for fewer points. So the question is whether anyone has found an effective wargear loadout for them? Several combi-weapons are nice but a bit of a one-hit-wonder. Is putting a squad with 4-5 combi-meltas in a pod and dropping them near armour an effective plan?

 

They should be able to kill a vehicle easily enough. If the enemy try to charge them, they have 2 attacks base and boosted overwatch meaning they should give a good account of themselves.

 

Or am I trying to make a silk purse of a sows ear? I like the robed models but I am struggling to find an effective use for them.

[Harrycane]

well when i eventually get around to using them i would like to have 9 of them in a raider with bolt pistol chainsword and an interrogator chaplain. But i haven't actually played a game yet so....

But anyway my idea was trying to take advantage of that +1 attack and making a nasty close combat  squad.

[IndigoJack]

Unfortunately, I've not found a use for our company veterans as the command squad outshines them in every way.

[Brother dean]

Alpha Strike in a pod.
 

2x Melta, 3x combi meltas, 4 storm bolters and a mace.  Takes down tanks, Knight monstrous creatures, infantry and has ObSec if used in a Demi company..

 

Edit:  Combat squad as required to shoot at multiple targets for maximum pain or to get past knight ion shields.

[WellSpokenMan]

Not good for much really.  Command Squads are better in almost every way.

[Elios Harg]

Company vets are not a bad unit, they are just inferior to command squads. The command squad can have 5 special weapons or 4 plus apothecary, relentless and counterattack vs. 10 company vets can have 2 heavy weapons, 1 special and any number of combi-weapons. Once you have an apothecary and a banner, things get a little more even. But you still have to field a full unit of 10 vets to really unlock its potential. I think other than for fluff, I would only field vets as part of a demi-company and only after all the other options are filled out as command squads and units of obsec dreadnoughts are superior.

[Father Mehman]

In my fluff, the Company Veterans act as Veteran Sergeants for the Tactical Squads. I couldn't figure out how to use them so they got disbanded .

[SvenONE]

Looking at their entries alone, yes it doesn't look like you'd ever take a Company Vet squad over a Command squad.  If you dive deeper you'll see there are situations and subtleties between the two which warrant mentioning.  Here's what I've written on Vets for an upcoming 7th edition overview that I'm hoping to post within the next week or two:

 

In 7th edition Company Vets are unchanged in cost or wargear options (to a degree).  Remember that they were FAQed in 6th edition almost immediately to say that there was no limit on exchanging weapons.  Whether it’s a Lion’s Blade or a CAD, if you want a thematic Greenwing list, Vets are ok.  Yes, they aren’t Sternguard, and yes they aren’t Vanguard, but they are cheaper than both of them and still come with the same stat lines.  I’ve seen arguments that you probably wouldn’t run these before running a Command Squad, and I agree.  They both now occupy the Elite role and there is no limit on the amount of Command Squads you could take in a CAD, so I tend to agree that that would be the case.  Company vets offer more bodies over a command squad.  You can also mix and match power weapons with special weapons if you were so inclined.  

 

They do have the addition of the grav-gun special weapon and the combi-grav.  But honestly you’d probably want them to function more in an assault role than a shooty one, but they offer the options of making a mixed squad that does both.

 

Notes on Combi-Gravs/Plasmas: If you are using vets in a Lion’s Blade, giving them combi-weapons isn’t the worst idea.  In 6th edition, that combi-plasma may have been forced to take the 1 shot beyond 12” or 2 snapshots during overwatch, but with the Supreme Fire Discipline rule you can enjoy that rapid-fire overwatch at full BS.  Comically, if you use combi-plasma there’s a chance that you could kill enough of the front charging models of your opponent while also getting hot and killing yourself; increasing your opponent’s charge range in the process!  In the area of combi-grav, having the full BS for those is incredibly helpful.

 

In a CAD, yes, you're not going to take Vets over Command.  But in a Lion's Blade or a Demi Company, where you're only allowed 1 Command Squad, and if you want additional shooting AND close combat, you can do this with a Vet squad.  A stationary squad of Vets with grav weapons (heavy/special) can give you 8 shots at 18" (5 at 24" and the ability to re-roll) for 50 points vs 9 for 45.  Then if you factor the standard and apothecary in you're spending even more.  So if you're in a jam trying to find points for other squads/formations outside your command squad these are a budget and less obvious target option for you.

 

On Command Squads, here's what I've written regarding a possible loophole in the RAW:

 

Possible Exploit: Rules as written, unlike the RWCS and the DWCS, there is no restriction to the number of Sacred Standards OR Apothecaries in Command Squads.  The RWCS and DWCS specifically state that there can only be one Apothecary in their army, however the command squad does not.  It also states only one in the army can take a standard, again, the command squad does not.  Nor is the sacred standard limited to 1 per army like the Chapter Banner in the wargear list.  So theoretically, you could run a CAD with 3 of these super grav gun, standard bearing squads who feel no pain.  That’s 45 grav gun shots at 18”.  Expensive, but apparently possible.  Alternatively you could run 2 minimum-model demi companies and a command squad in each formation.

[AngelVeto]

I run my vets in a unit of 10 in a pod all of them having bolt pistol/plasma pistol. It's not always effective, buts it's a lot of fun.

[aura_enchanted]

they can be a good supplement to the naturally high cost of say deathwing knights and can help haul your terminators out of a tarpit. if you arent one of the few blessed with a command tanks set from warhammer world you take 9 of them maybe add a chaplain and sam them into a rhino, tey disembark safely behind the rhino that has graciously popped smoke and on your following turn your move up, shot your pistols at someone/run up and then you charge in. essenially what you then have is 27 s4 ap- attacks from a single squad of marines with hatred + the chaplain which is more than ample damage output to kill say nurgling or a squad of necron warriors entirely making a total successful reanimation result totally impossible and its very likely you break the tarpit unless the enemy wants to throw more field assets on the bonfire in an effort to keep your deathwing knights stuck in the mud so they cant smash apart his lynchguard down the way or whatever

[Elios Harg]

Looking at their entries alone, yes it doesn't look like you'd ever take a Company Vet squad over a Command squad. If you dive deeper you'll see there are situations and subtleties between the two which warrant mentioning. Here's what I've written on Vets for an upcoming 7th edition overview that I'm hoping to post within the next week or two:

 

In 7th edition Company Vets are unchanged in cost or wargear options (to a degree). Remember that they were FAQed in 6th edition almost immediately to say that there was no limit on exchanging weapons. Whether it’s a Lion’s Blade or a CAD, if you want a thematic Greenwing list, Vets are ok. Yes, they aren’t Sternguard, and yes they aren’t Vanguard, but they are cheaper than both of them and still come with the same stat lines. I’ve seen arguments that you probably wouldn’t run these before running a Command Squad, and I agree. They both now occupy the Elite role and there is no limit on the amount of Command Squads you could take in a CAD, so I tend to agree that that would be the case. Company vets offer more bodies over a command squad. You can also mix and match power weapons with special weapons if you were so inclined.

 

They do have the addition of the grav-gun special weapon and the combi-grav. But honestly you’d probably want them to function more in an assault role than a shooty one, but they offer the options of making a mixed squad that does both.

 

Notes on Combi-Gravs/Plasmas: If you are using vets in a Lion’s Blade, giving them combi-weapons isn’t the worst idea. In 6th edition, that combi-plasma may have been forced to take the 1 shot beyond 12” or 2 snapshots during overwatch, but with the Supreme Fire Discipline rule you can enjoy that rapid-fire overwatch at full BS. Comically, if you use combi-plasma there’s a chance that you could kill enough of the front charging models of your opponent while also getting hot and killing yourself; increasing your opponent’s charge range in the process! In the area of combi-grav, having the full BS for those is incredibly helpful.

 

In a CAD, yes, you're not going to take Vets over Command. But in a Lion's Blade or a Demi Company, where you're only allowed 1 Command Squad, and if you want additional shooting AND close combat, you can do this with a Vet squad. A stationary squad of Vets with grav weapons (heavy/special) can give you 8 shots at 18" (5 at 24" and the ability to re-roll) for 50 points vs 9 for 45. Then if you factor the standard and apothecary in you're spending even more. So if you're in a jam trying to find points for other squads/formations outside your command squad these are a budget and less obvious target option for you.

 

On Command Squads, here's what I've written regarding a possible loophole in the RAW:

 

Possible Exploit: Rules as written, unlike the RWCS and the DWCS, there is no restriction to the number of Sacred Standards OR Apothecaries in Command Squads. The RWCS and DWCS specifically state that there can only be one Apothecary in their army, however the command squad does not. It also states only one in the army can take a standard, again, the command squad does not. Nor is the sacred standard limited to 1 per army like the Chapter Banner in the wargear list. So theoretically, you could run a CAD with 3 of these super grav gun, standard bearing squads who feel no pain. That’s 45 grav gun shots at 18”. Expensive, but apparently possible. Alternatively you could run 2 minimum-model demi companies and a command squad in each formation.

I basically agree. On the note about command squads having no limit on apothecaries and sacred standards, I never realized that. It does make sense. There are 7-8 non-Ravenwing/Deathwing apothecaries and standard bearers in the chapter. There are also three sacred standards. So fluff-wise, while it would be unlikely to have all three sacred standards in the same army, it is not impossible.

[Knight Master Eladric]

I've had some success putting 9 in a pod with 2 plasma, a few combiplasma, and add a company master with the new Preferred enemy relic and a combiplasma as well. PE plasma shots are kind of awesome.

[march10k]

I never try to compare units in my codex to "similar" units in another codex.  Context is everything, and a unit's usefulness is best measured in its synergy with other choices, filling of capability gaps, formation/FOC requirements and opportunity costs, and other factors that make a comparison between codexes problematic.  That said, company vets are useless.  We have elite (not a reference to an FOC slot!) options that do almost anything they can do...better.  I suppose they could be the fireknife of our codex if kitted out appropriately, that is decent at everything, best choice for no particular mission...kind of like tactical squads, only with a higher density of expensive options!

[Syphid]

 

Has anyone found a use for Company Veterans. They seem to be disctinctly inferior to codex Sternguard (albeit cheaper). They are basically Tactical Marines with an extra attack and +1Ld.

 

I love company vets.  They were pretty meh in previous editions, but IMO now they are one of our most underrated units. The key is to take them in a Lion's Blade formation.

 

Sure they don't get the fancy rules of Sternguard or Vanguard, but they get Objective Secured, Stubborn, and BS4 Overwatch.  I run them in the following ways:

 

Harassment:  Combi weapons, Heavy Weapon to taste, Drop Pod.  Deep strike into enemy lines on turn one and force your opponent to deal with them, disrupting his gameplan and possibly stealing an objective or first blood at the start of the game.

 

Super Assault Squad: BP+CS, melee/assault weapons to taste, Land Raider or Storm Eagle.  Get into melee and smash.

 

Midfield Objective Camper: Boltguns, 2x Special Weapons, Heavy, rhino, drop pod, or razorback.  More shooty than either an assault squad or a tactical squad, LD 9 all the time, and anybody assaulting them will have to eat BS4 rapid fire overwatch and then fight A2 marines.  It does the same job as a Tactical Squad, only better.

[Cpt_Reaper]

I run 6 at the moment with my Company Master out of a Land Raider.

- Sarge with storm shield and power fist thunder hammer (only noticed that was a legal choice the other day)
- 2 vets with power sword and combat shield
- vet with plasma gun

- 2 vets with storm bolters

 

I'd like to rejig them to get 10 man once my storm eagle is finished...aiming for two 10 man squads with one shooty and one stabby.

[shabbadoo]

You gave the unit a plasma gun so that if it fires the unit can't charge?  Horrible idea.  If you run plasma guns, you either go all in with plasma guns or leave them at home.  Anything other than a plasma gun would be better in your set-up, and the stormbolters are not all that useful either.  If you are having Company Veterans come out of a Land Raider, what you really need to be doing is tooling up fully for close combat so as to make use of the Land Raider's Assault Vehicle rule, but more importantly to to make use of the Company Veterans' 2 Attacks base stat, which is mostly why they cost more than a basic marine.  Close combat is imminently more decisive than shooting is, and that is another reason to equip them for close combat.  A similar configuration to what Ork players do with Nobz serves Company Veterans very well. So, give the squad a couple power fists, and then spread power weapons out among the others (swords and axes; one maul if you wish), but leave a couple with only bolt pistols and chainswords to take out for the inevitable casualtt removal.  If you want a bit of anti-armor, but for not many more points, and without detracting from the unit's close combat effectiveness very much, drop a power weapon or two, sprinkle in some meltabombs, and include a meltagun or two.

 

The only other decent use for Company Veterans is to load them up with special weapons and Drop Pod them in for whatever particular brand of Alpha Strike you have tooled them up for. 

[march10k]

- Sarge with storm shield and power fist thunder hammer (only noticed that was a legal choice the other day)

That is a good reason for a veteran squad! It's the only way I can field this guy:

Now, that's a champion worthy of the name...that pissant "company champion" is better than in the last edition, but...AP2>AP3 and 3++>5++...just too bad he can't have artificer armor...but you have to leave some options for the company master

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Like many people said, Company vets do have a role in a Greenwing army.

- Pod 9 of them with Azrael with FNP warlord trait into an objective and see them stand there weathering a storm of fire but not yielding an inch.

- Pod 10 of them with a mix of plasma and/or melta weaponry, combat squad them on landing to attack two different  targets at same time.

- Use them as a super-assault squad with BP&CCW plus power weapons/fists in a rhino/drop pod.

If you're +laying a demi/battle company then having vets becomes another tool you can use because they can be made either a "super" tactical squad or a "super" assault squad to cover up any gaps you have.

[MaulerUK]

As the chaps have said, Vets are good for exploiting their uniqueness: up to 10 models with 2A each.  I've fielded Vets 5-10 strong in friendly games in a drop-pod or LR with an expensive mix of Claw/SS and Plasma/Grav Pistol/Power Sword/Axe to get stuck in with decent AP, a 3++ leading the charge with pistols, AP2 and +1A towards the back.  Failing that it's a unit of 9 with combis + Azrael to hold an objective.

 

Command Squads are a focal or anchor point of a defensive line that can charge out to stand a decent chance in assault.

Company Vets are there to go out and get a job done where numbers are key and a normal Assault/Tactical Squad wouldn't be enough.

[WellSpokenMan]

Vets can be fun, but the points cost in making them effective is a severe handicap.  They are Tacticals with +1 A and +1 Ld.  The leadership buff is largely pointless due to Grim Resolve and ATSKNF.  The extra attack is just too expensive to take advantage of in a larger unit in my opinion.  Command Squads do both shooting and chopping better because of banners, and they are more survivable because of the Apothecary.  If they got a discount on Power Weapons like Vanguard or Special Ammo like Sternguard, I could see a role for them.  As is though, they only seem useful if you really want more than 5 robed guys with your IC.  I can possibly see a use for them in a Demi-Company because of the restrictions, but even that seems a stretch.

[Caldria]

On another note - the Azrael Veteran droppod combo got a fair amount better (specifically the 'pod on objective for the fnp near objective warlord trait) because in our battle company our vets are now officially objective secured for the first time ever. Which is pretty great for that.

[mika_angelus]

If you want a truly terrifing assault unit, then take a full unit of vets with ccw&bp (full means 9 :) ) and put them in pod with Ezekiel. Sprinkle a few special ccw weapons in there, maybe a flamer and some melta bombs too, and with some good psychic buffs from Eze you got your own "company of death"/"berserkers" :D

[shabbadoo]

Yep. Ezekiel is the offensive compliment to Company Veterans; Azrael the defensive compliment. Combining the two of them with Company Veterans in a Drop Pod or any variety of Land Raider is pretty nasty.

[WellSpokenMan]

Assuming you use a drop pod for the Azz-Zeke deathstar, would the additional 3 veterans you can take be worth giving up an Apothecary and a Chapter Banner?  They are the cheaper option for an already expensive unit and FNP adds more to survivability than 3 more 1 wound models.  You do lose some attacks and shooting, but I think the expense of running the extra vets swings things back into the Command Squad's favor.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Sorry, but I have to steer this back on topic. I think the objective of the thread is to show that Veteran squads have their niche, not that command squads are better instead. IMHO it's more helpful to everyone if we come up with good reasons and builds for the Veteran squad instead of just pointing out that the command squad is better. People have Veterans, they want to use them and I think that's the  point of this thread.

If we just start making comparisons , then if a person comes to ask help for their black knight we just had to say, don't use them, use a RW command squad instead, or use Deathwing command squads instead of Terminators.

I'm not denying that the Command squad can be more powerful than the Veteran, but the Veterans do have their uses and they can also do what the command squad can't.