Dukeawesome1 Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 What do you think was improved overall of the new codex? In my opinion it is pretty good, except for the deathwing, it was good to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Reaper Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 I'll just list them... - "meh" relics got better...except the monster slayer.- LSV got better - Nephilim got better - Dark Talon got...ohhhh myyy- Interromancy is quite nice - formations are very decent. Hammer of Caliban can get as cheesy as it is expensive. No complaints. - Deathwing isn't bad, just requires Ravenwing support now.The only con...no love for successors again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aekold Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 The only con I can find is the badly written ravenwing strike force when it comles to HQ choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonPhoenix Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 The only con I can find is the badly written ravenwing strike force when it comles to HQ choices. What about banners, power field generator, rad grenades, ability to take terminators/bikes as troops, ability to take LR's to terminator formations? And finally: we still don't have any FAQ that could explain numerious questions related to our codex although two months have passed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Talon is an A+ Ravenwing Knights to 6 for CS - A Deathwing strike force is a definate A (you were always going to loose troops, null deployment was a quirk of moving to 7th, terminator only armies suck at progressive objectives) Across the board Speeders & formation buffs Warlord traits got buffed slightly Deathwing Knights more flexible Lions blade looks OK for greenwing Psychic is fun & different On the negative Getting free stuff means competativley you not going to see much divergence, while it levels the playing field with other codexes as soon as you need to win your gonna have to come up with a double Lion variant. That means tons of cool options will go ot the window Terminators are still not viable with Grav spam all over the shop now we have Dev's as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidicul Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 I don't like that we have no way of putting black knights into the lions blade, but having the teleport homers work for allies means that my GK now have help coming in on turn one, and I think I'm gonna like gateing around a command squad with grav-guns and sanctuary boosted storm shields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Friend has some GK's which I've used its a filthy combo Add Conclave to the mix and you have Psychic Spam on a level only available to Daemons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belfast Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 One pro that was missed is the Cheapest "gladius" for all space marines. Only requiring. 55 points of scouts really makes DA great as allies if you want a ton of obsec units Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 The only con I can find is the badly written ravenwing strike force when it comles to HQ choices. What about banners, power field generator, rad grenades, ability to take terminators/bikes as troops, ability to take LR's to terminator formations? And finally: we still don't have any FAQ that could explain numerious questions related to our codex although two months have passed. While the banners were nice, they basically shoehorned lists into armies that rely on one model staying alive. I personally won't miss them. The PFG is in a similar boat as it was a piece of wargear that was abused to make "cheesy" combos until that one model died. IMO these were crutch pieces of wargear that a lot of people felt were "must-takes" and prevented them from building truly powerful synergetic lists. Terminators and bikes as troops aren't that big of a deal as we still have detachments that can allow us to field whole armies of them. And while it really is a shame that battleforged pure deathwing lists aren't viable anymore (even though they've been around since 2nd edition), it doesn't do any good to continue to complain about it. The codex is different now, we need to adapt or find a different army. Talon is an A+ Ravenwing Knights to 6 for CS - A Deathwing strike force is a definate A (you were always going to loose troops, null deployment was a quirk of moving to 7th, terminator only armies suck at progressive objectives) Across the board Speeders & formation buffs Warlord traits got buffed slightly Deathwing Knights more flexible Lions blade looks OK for greenwing Psychic is fun & different On the negative Getting free stuff means competativley you not going to see much divergence, while it levels the playing field with other codexes as soon as you need to win your gonna have to come up with a double Lion variant. That means tons of cool options will go ot the window Terminators are still not viable with Grav spam all over the shop now we have Dev's as well Competitively, I'm not sure were actually going to see that much of the Lion's Blade. It's good, for sure, but I think RW deathstars are going to be far more common for DA. I don't like that we have no way of putting black knights into the lions blade, but having the teleport homers work for allies means that my GK now have help coming in on turn one, and I think I'm gonna like gateing around a command squad with grav-guns and sanctuary boosted storm shields. Well, the TH only works for models in terminator armor, so that means strikes, interceptors, and dreadknights still can't use it. This isn't a big deal if all you field is terminators and paladins, but something you need to be aware of. One pro that was missed is the Cheapest "gladius" for all space marines. Only requiring. 55 points of scouts really makes DA great as allies if you want a ton of obsec units I'm not sure if it's really cheaper. Keep in mind that the gladius can take other units besides assault marines and devastators. I think it really comes down to upgrades and whether or not you're fielding a demi- or full battle company. I think by the time you get to full battle company though it pretty much evens out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Actual Cons I see as being very few, but they are somewhat big. Azrael, Sammael and Belial's abilities to change FOC is a bit of a downer. This is softened somewhat for Sammael as he has a nice detachment. This is more of a blow to Belial and Azrael. Belial because he's simply less interesting now because you can create virtually the same HQ with an Interrogator Chaplain or Company Master in TDA. Azrael because even though he's deathwing, he can't start in deepstrike and is ultimately unable to join a DW formation. Keeping with that, the Deathwing formation/detachments are both sadly too similar and lack variety, and the rules that govern them are so so. For pure DW players, this isn't that great of a book for you, for mixed wings, it's better. Azrael took a hit as well by moving to a LOW. GW seems to think just because something is expensive means it should be a Lord of War. Azrael lost his biggest rule with FOC changing and gained a marginal one by the FNP change. Then you factor in the fact that you can't legally take him unless you take another HQ slot somewhere else be it a CAD or a Lion's Blade. Otherwise everything else is a pro in this book. Things that needed to get cheaper did, things that were crummy were improved (Darktalon/Landspeeder Vengeance). Lots to like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadZone Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Without addressing FAQ issues (like Bikes not conferring the Ravenwing special rule), there is quite a bit of good in the Dark Angels new book. It doesn't bother me that we lost our sacred standards, as I thought they were crap anyways. We gained a very strong buff to what used to be our worst Relic, and our own (if not sort of dumb) psychic table! I'll go ahead and list what I find to be the cons to this new book. The Chapter Tactic: Grim Resolve has had a buff since the last Codex. Stubborn is very useful vs Eldar BS, and the Overwatch buffs are absolutely punishing melee based armies; however, given that the current meta isn't centered around assault combat, it's only good against armies that weren't trying to be competitive anyways. The exception to this is Tzeench Chaos Demons, whom can buff their Demon Princes to the point of having such high toughness that it doesn't even matter! Deathwing in General: Are fun, but trash. In order to get the T1/T2 Deep Strike. Excuse me, T2-T4 Deep Strike ability, we need to take a 500 Pt Tax to include a Terminator HQ and two Terminator Squads within a formation. This formation also gives them Preffered enemy, which stacks upon their default Hatred--the target you ask? Chaos Space Marines. Just the marines; not chaos Daemons, not Heldrakes, not Daemon-kin in general, but only the marines. If it was referring to the Codex: CSM (which it's not) that would only mean that these rules are useful against exactly 1/16 of the Codex books IN THE GAME. Knights are still kind of awesome but a less threatening awesome, now they're just *averagely awesome since I can't have them on T2 for sure without paying a tax. Taking a Land Raider is out of the question! Ravenwing/Deathwing Strike Forces: The Deathwing side of this has no real difference from just using the Redemption force; most players want to come in on turn 2 anyhow and won't think twice about, "Huh should I let them come in on turn 4"? The Ravenwing one is slightly better, but only in the fact that it's not redundant. It would have been nice if you had a Strike Force as your primary detachment, it would allow the units inside to have Objective Secured. Ravenwing Grenade Launcher: I've found it to be less useful now that Rad grenades don't Nerf toughness. Considering that only 1/4 of the ammo useable is 'Blast', and the fact that you'll be jinking almost all the time, I'd rather not sacrifice good old plasma for it. Land Speeder Vengeance: Why is this still here? That's as far as I can get without nit-picking their inclusion of the Formations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonPhoenix Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 IMO these were crutch pieces of wargear that a lot of people felt were "must-takes" and prevented them from building truly powerful synergetic lists. But this wargear gave you posibilities to make a very various synergetic list, like: 1. Devastation banner worked very well with Dark Talon, LRC, full bike squads, etc. 2. PFG gave you posibility to make powerfull roster on LRs with terminators or shooty roster base on devastators. 3. Rad grenades gave a lot of flexibility to whole army during both shooting and assault phases. Terminators and bikes as troops aren't that big of a deal as we still have detachments that can allow us to field whole armies of them. Yep, but in such case we also lose "Object securied" rule and posibility to play whole terminators army. The codex is different now, we need to adapt or find a different army. I will agree with you when GW publish FAQ. Currentlly codex looks like to make in haste with lots of errors and unclear moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Taking a Land Raider is out of the question! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 The only con I can find is the badly written ravenwing strike force when it comles to HQ choices. I wish they would fix this...this guy is waiting: Taking a Land Raider is out of the question! LOL You know...I have been wondering why nobody is even considering fielding a combined arms detachment. While the Lions Blade and the RWAS/DWSF combo are awesome, mechanized deathwing are just one of the things you can't really get outside of a CAD. DTs are another...unless you think the silence squadron is a good idea Personally, if I'm fielding three DA fliers, it's gonna be three DTs...S7 blacksword missiles are nice, but the stained glass cannon got AWESOME...and who doesn't want THREE stasis bombs, lol. I could see a list with a librarian or two in TDA, 2x5 snipers, a dark talon or three, and two crusaderloads of termies...but, yeah, we used land raiders before the PFG, they haven't suddenly turned into open-topped AV10 deathtraps. I do see the difficulty in getting them into a formation-based list, there just isn't a place for them outside of the hammer of caliban...but "out of the question?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 But this wargear gave you posibilities to make a very various synergetic list, like: 1. Devastation banner worked very well with Dark Talon, LRC, full bike squads, etc. 2. PFG gave you posibility to make powerfull roster on LRs with terminators or shooty roster base on devastators. 3. Rad grenades gave a lot of flexibility to whole army during both shooting and assault phases. The dev banner wasn't real synergy. It was one model that made a bunch of other models shoot better. Lose the model, and the whole thing fell apart. The PFG might have been fine when the last book was first released, but as soon as it stopped working in vehicles it gained the same disadvantage as the banners. If you want the 4+ save, Azrael can still hand one out. I don't see the loss of either the banner and PFG as the end of DA as we know it. Yeah, losing rad grenades bit a little but it's a wholly manageable loss. Every codex (except C:SM) has lost things. Necrons lost MSS, eldar lost the mantle etc. Heck, GK lost half of their codex, I consider or loses minimal by comparison. Even with our loses, our codex now is pretty good. Yep, but in such case we also lose "Object securied" rule and posibility to play whole terminators army. Yup, we lost ObSec. The codex still works without it though. And while pure deathwing is dead (RIP), all the whining in the world isn't going to bring it back. I will agree with you when GW publish FAQ. Currentlly codex looks like to make in haste with lots of errors and unclear moments. Just like every codex before it. If you play causally with friends or at an FLGS, ask your opponent if you can field RW with other HQs. If you play in tournaments, ITC just FAQ'd ICs on bikes with the RW special rule, and I imagine if GW doesn't FAQ it anytime soon other tournaments will follow suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 The PFG might have been fine when the last book was first released, but as soon as it stopped working in vehicles it gained the same disadvantage as the banners. Correction...it did start working again in the last FAQ before the new book...and anyway, it worked well enough when carried by a bike libby or bike techie in the interim. But, yeah, not critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 The PFG might have been fine when the last book was first released, but as soon as it stopped working in vehicles it gained the same disadvantage as the banners. Correction...it did start working again in the last FAQ before the new book...and anyway, it worked well enough when carried by a bike libby or bike techie in the interim. But, yeah, not critical. You don't mean the one from last october do you? the one that prevented the PFG from working inside vehicles again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Did I miss one? If I did, oh, well...I actually liked fielding my bike libby...I can't remember whether I was playing DA or IG last fall, lol...maybe it was Sisters, actually... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attias Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Some interesting comments and opinions here, thanks for bringing this up. I must say, besides being pretty new to the site, I'm also still relatively new to the hobby as well and still in the process of building my army and getting my head around the basics, so I'll apologize in advance if my observations seem elementary or totally out to lunch ! Anyway, for what it's worth, here are some of my thoughts on the codex: 1) The Heroes The heroes seem confused to me. For example, Sam is highly-mobile with an impressive choice of ranged firepower, yet he is the one with the AP2 sword and Eternal Warrior. Shouldn't we be hitting and running with him at best? Meanwhile, Belial, while scoring an extra attack which is cool, is our beefy guy intended to be dropped with our elite into the middle of any given firestorm, yet he is armed with an AP3 sword and is capable of being insta-KO'd by some nobody with a power fist? That just seems wrong to me; Belial - the DA's consumate duelist - should be able to roll and go the distance with guys in his weight class. And then there's Azrael... Now again, perhaps I'm just new and not understanding everything surrounding the game, but when I hear "Lord of War", I automatically assume a super-unit like a massive tank or something. I'm just not sure... what Azrael's deal is. I could get behind him in the last codex due to what he did for the army. I always wanted to him be a toe to to fighter, but I could still accept him as a background commander who did his elites/FA to troops trick. But now, I think even GW didn't know what to do with him. Shouldn't the Supreme leader of the First Legion be able to do more for his own army than just join an allied Guard blob? If anyone should have the AP2 sword and Eternal Warrior, it should be this guy (even though I think Belial needs it more). In the fluff, he went toe to toe with Khârn and not only scored first blood, but also walked away with his head on his shoulders. He also went toe to toe with Typhus (although I thought that fight was accurately portrayed as his barrage of sword strikes did nothing). Is his big trick now really just hiding in a Land Raider and hoping his invul holds? Don't get me wrong, that's a cool trick, but it's really expensive and a character of his stature deserves more. So the Sword of Secrets is the greatest of the Heavenfall blades huh? Geez, at least Belial's has Fleshbane. It's the least of the blades as far as I can see - maybe give it Shred or something? And Asmodai? For crying out loud, I like his model, but they really need to give the Blades of Reason some kind of AP value, he's just not worth it. All in all, many of the named heroes just seem like missed opportunities to me. Sam and Ezekiel are the only two named HQs that I think are solid (although I will still use Belial because I love the character and he looks cool). 2). Grim Resolve Grim Resolve is growing on me. I didn't quite know what to think of the Overwatch buff at first since it sort of caught me off guard. I'm definately on board now with it although I was really hoping instead for some kind of ability to let us ignore Gets Hot or at least re-roll it (I love plasma and our apparent fluffy use of it - but I've never had a game yet where I didn't lose at least 1 guy to a gun blowing up in his face). 3). Interromancy is cool, I really like it a lot and I'm so happy to have something that's not just 'ours', but effective too. 4) I love dreadnoughts and I'm so happy we can squad them ! 5) Deathwing. Alright, well - I love the DW and I think they are an absolutely stunning force to have on the table; really, they are beautiful models. I grieved the loss of first-turn alpha strike; seeing it taken and given to other armies made it feel like we got robbed. Anyway, I'm over it. In truth, I always wanted to run a multi-wing force anyway so I was never going to be an all-Deathwing army guy. Not that it isn't appealing, but terminators in general just don't seem to be - in my own rookie opinion - worth having in large numbers on the table anyway. There is simply too much AP2 out there and terminator armor just isn't that big of a deal from what I have seen to justify investing in it. I really think terminators in general need either 2 hitpoints or perhaps a bump in their inherent invulnerability rating to make them worthwhile in large numbers. I also think they need more firepower for their price. The redemption force is not so far off the Apocolypse version; I wish they just went for it and just gave all DW weapons Rending - that I could totally get behind ! Venerable dreads are cool though and I for one cheered the revamped Deathwing Knights. I understand that the new version of them has been criticised as they only have small-k-kapow now instead of capital K-kapow. But I suppose it comes down to my appitite for risk - speaking for myself, they were just a bit too expensive and situational to get onto the board and keep them alive long enough to do their smite trick.,.. and then risk having them miss, (or get tarpitted or something, etc). I'd much rather have them slightly less killy but much, MUCH more versatile like they are now, (although I wish the KM had smite too). Anyway - I love the models for them and I can see me using these guys a lot. The knights seguay into my last DW comment - the Take the Fight to the Enemy rule (Run and shoot/Shoot and run) - It's a shame the Knights can't benefit from this. It would have been nice to give the knights some kind of 'hunker down' type of ability where, for that arrival turn only, their shields gave them a temporary bump to a 2 invul or something - just to really help them survive that arrival where they're all clumped together. A guy in my local club mentioned that recently and I thought it was a great idea. 6) Ravenwing - I love Black Knights although I wish they were cheaper and available in the Lions Blade. Soooo happy with the flyers which I always thought looked super-cool. I definately want to get a Silence Squad together. The landspeeder vengeance - ok, well, it's better. I'm not knocking the little boost we got to range and HP - but I wish they just went for it, called it a skimmer tank and gave it a bit more armor - even if it was just a couple of points. They fact that you can still hypothetically blow yourself up before ever firing at an enemy still puts me off. I firmly believe the LSV plasma storm cannons should be twin-linked to let you re-roll Gets Hot hits. If they did this, I think I could get on board with it. 7) I like the formations; I admit, I'm a big Green marine fan so the demi company and Lion's Blade looks cool. I love predators, vindicators, whirlwinds, etc. too so I am going to build a Hammer of Caliban with some predators (seems to be the most versatile). I am not sure though - what about formations like the Librarius Conclave that came out last winter or the Dark Vengeance one that came out with the starter kit (I forget it's name - gave everyone relentless). Do you guys think they will ever be allowed in the Lions blade as auxilary options? Anyway, I'll leave it at that - sorry for the wall of text. The nature of discussions like this tends to get me on a roll where one thing pops in my mind, which links to another thing and then another, etc LOL So sorry if it all seems like rambling. Thanks for reading and please - if I've got something totally wrong or backwards here, please feel free to correct me so I can better learn. Thanks ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garath Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Here's my 2 cents I do feel the new book is better , as it gives us more interesting choices then the previous one. And this coming form a DW player primarily. Terminators I really do think DW is better off then it was. Terminators had several major disadvantages in the last book,which have nnow been improved: - they had to take Belial (who was too expensive and not really killy at all) in a CAD - they where expensive (and now are a bit cheaper) - when you used DWA , several DW squads where left bunched up after their turn - and the enemy went bannanas with templates - sarge was an ablative wound with a sword (and now he gets a TH!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 The only thing that is a minus is the loss of Obsec on DW/RW armies. Everything else was improved, even factoring the loss of some gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caldria Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Yeah this codex has gained a large net increase of pros - It can actually put its foot in the door with the big boys now and not be swept off the board.The biggest problem to azrael and belial losing their force org swaps ISN'T because of the loss of force org swaps - yes we have detachments that "mimic" the same lists but those detachments don't give us the absolute main reason for taking azzy and belial in the past - Objective Secured.But I feel like azrael's failure to rise to the other chapter masters in the new dex has been discussed to death so I won't go much further into it. I was so sure eternal warrior would be a given for azzy, but oh well... even if he didn't get ap 2 (i seem him as more of the support CM, which granted, Calgar does amazingly well and STILL has EW and at initiative power fists...) he would've been pretty decent with granting army wide objective secured. Alas, he is now just... ok, not a bad character - not sure he's worth the LoW status at all though. Annoying that he is far better to other codices than he is in ours - but hey, I still wanna convert him up with the new int chaplain as a base, and I do love the new book. Ravenwing Support Squadron is so sexy.Black Knights are as awesome as ever (weird how it seems like they've been pushed more towards an assault unit with great shooting, than a shooting unit capable of melee - so not sure if I'll be using the grenade launcher much anymore especially after the nerf to rad)Deathwing Knights - my most absolute favourite models in the entire space marine range finally became pretty great all around with just a few small changes. Delivery method is still a problem, however. Played them last game using deepstrike coupled with ravenwing strike force first turn turbo boost and 12" teleport homers which helped secure them a turn 3 charge. They managed to absorb a ton of firepower and killed a wyvern, company command squad and swept a 30man blob off the board after precision striking the priest that kept them from running. That was actually the first game ive ever played with them where they earned their points back - so I was excited. A lot of our formations are actually pretty awesome so I'm overall quite happy with this book so far (only played 3 games with it though, two with the battle company and one with a death/raven list) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzhands Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I have lost count of the games i have played with the new book and i love it. So many different ways to play. Yes it has its problems but overall its amazing. Won all my games but two and they were draws. My biggest complaint is people moaning when I pull out my ravenwing. They never had a problem with it a few months ago. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarFromSam Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Posted twice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarFromSam Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Hey caldria, are you sure models in TDA are capable of sweeping advances? Sorry if off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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