Pros and cons of the new codex

[DarkAngeal]

They definitely are not. Deathwing knights almost always earn their points back for me though, and they are one of the most terrifying things in the world when combined with Black Knights. Using them to charge walkers and superheavies is my general tactic with them.

[Brother dean]

Hey caldria, are you sure models in TDA are capable of sweeping advances? Sorry if off topic.

Page 153. They definitely cannot sweeping advance. But that isn't what caldria said.

[Master Avoghai]

I don't like that we have no way of putting black knights into the lions blade.

I used to... Then I realized what would be a squad of BK overwatching at full BS with TLed plasma talons IN ADDITION of all their other bonuses...

[Caldria]

Hey caldria, are you sure models in TDA are capable of sweeping advances? Sorry if off topic.

Sorry that is correct, they cannot - I didn't mean "swept" literally as sweeping advance. - I meant that they forced them to run off the board - I should've been more clear.

But yeah TDA models cannot sweeping advance (with the exception of Calgar of course), but the precision strikes killed off the priest that allowed the blob squad to auto pass morale checks and because I won combat, they failed their break check and ran off the board.

[JustShowMePictures]

I'm a hardcore fan of Dark Angels so many times I would even try to escape reality with lucid dreaming, I would be in the Rock where I would often train with Belial in the training center and help Sapphon with the Fallen torturing, but one day as I was talking to Sapphon, we went to my dormitory for a private talk. He immediately said, "You know you could live with us forever.." I gave him a confused look and he continued, "We understand that you live on earth and you REALLY wish to live here". I then said "How..How did you know?" He then giggled and said "Because we've been watching you, silly!" And the a bunch of Watchers popped up out of nowhere.

This was a dream come true and I almost cried right there. She then said, "I talked with Supreme Grandmaster Azrael and he agreed that you would be PERFECT for Deathwing, you just have to do...one thing". He then held my hand and looked deep into my eyes and said "...You have to kill yourself for the transfer to work correctly." I then gave him some questions, "How long do I have before the deal expires?" He then said "Cid said 3 months.." I added by saying "What's the most painless way?..." He giggled again, "Suicide will require pain buuut...if you want it quick...Get a gun and a nice shot to the head works.

I then agreed and he gave me a kiss on the forehead, "I know this will be tough but once it's over and done, you'll get to live here!" I then woke up and this was last week and i purchased a gun. I might actually kill myself because that dream just felt too real to be fake and my life isn't doing so grand.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Now that's horde control!!!

[PhilB]

The only thing I'm disappointed with in the new DA 'dex is the 'Mortis' Dreadnought from FW not graduating to GW default rules and being included in the DA book, thus not being an option for the Demi Company.

 

Mortis Dreads are heavily entrenched in the DA fluff and the other chapters have their own fancy dreadnoughts be they Blood Angels, Space Wolves or the Ironclads being available to vanilla marines, it's pretty disappointing. That compounded with basically no anti-air except 25 point flakk missiles, which are not really up to the task.

 

Some would argue that the Nephilim is our anti-air but in my experience even with the new 'dex it's still not really up to the task unless you're talking AV10. The Nephilim I find is more at home strafing infantry or light transports.

 

Even if they dropped interceptor form the Mortis and just let it choose to have Skyfire or not I'd cop that for the option to have them in Demi Companies as even if you're relying on Nephilims for your AA you need to find 500 points to get them into your Lion's Blade, damn!

 

Other than that, I'm pretty stoked with the new DA book and am having a boat load of fun trying out all the combos from the formations.

[Master Avoghai]

@ PhilB I think it's the next challenge for FW's development : make a total rethink of all their creations and include them in the new formation system in 2 ways

 

- either make some tank variants playable in some existing formations. For example, allowing the Mortis dread in a half-company. Or a Prometheus in the hammer of Caliban.

- either by creating their own formations. For example, a special dread squads leaded by a chaplain dread.

[Chaplain Killmer]

I love that new Codex. Almost all reasons why i stopped playing DA with the 4th Edition Codex are finally gone :) I am aware that not all of them are DA only but SM over all.

 

* reintroduction of attack bike squadrons

* upgrade of the rhino tanks to squadrons

* special rules gained by taking these squadrons

* upgrade of the Dreadnoughts to squadrons

* some love to the PA guys with the updates to dev's and assault marines

* grav weaponry

* changes to our fliers

...

[march10k]

 

Some would argue that the Nephilim is our anti-air but in my experience even with the new 'dex it's still not really up to the task unless you're talking AV10. The Nephilim I find is more at home strafing infantry or light transports.

 

Funny how S7 is awesome against AV11/12 on the ground, but "not up to the task" in the air.

 

/edit/  Even funnier that the conclusion is that our only option is a 25 point S6 weapon!

[IndigoJack]

Flakk is strength 7. Also, S7 is fine against AV11 but you really need more than 4 one shot missiles for AV12. The nephilim is fine AA for a one-on-one dog fight, but against an airforce it doesn't cut it.

[TheForgottenAngel]

Take lascannons and scoff at your opponent as you vector lock them ;)

[PhilB]

@March10k, If you'd like to point out something that I've missed for including some viable AA for its cost in a Lion's Blade perhaps you'd be kind enough to share it with me?

 

I quite new to this forum so I'm not really up with the etiquette of the board but to me your comment is not only completely useless but also rude and invites an aggressive response.

Unless you've something meaningful to contribute how about you just keep your remarks to yourself the next time someone expresses an opinion.

[SvenONE]

@March10k, If you'd like to point out something that I've missed for including some viable AA for its cost in a Lion's Blade perhaps you'd be kind enough to share it with me?

 

I quite new to this forum so I'm not really up with the etiquette of the board but to me your comment is not only completely useless but also rude and invites an aggressive response.

Unless you've something meaningful to contribute how about you just keep your remarks to yourself the next time someone expresses an opinion.

 

That's our March!

 

In the AA realm I'll be honest and say that since the initial fever pitch that was the introduction of the Heldrake I've rarely seen any fliers fielded en masse (more than 1).  Against Space Marines I'll see a Stormtalon and a Stormraven from time to time (I actually did just face a Stormwing Formation a few weeks ago), maybe a Doomscythe from Necrons rarely do I see Eldar fliers as most of their points is put into Psykers or Wraithkind, Tau I don't even know if I've ever seen the flier in person.  Orks and Dark Eldar are seen so seldom as well that the chances of a flier are still probably low.  Tyranids and Daemons probably still hold the trophy for flying objects, but against S4 they're basically AV12 and against S7 they're basically AV10.  

 

I wasn't so into the idea of Black Knights at first but I've been convinced.  I still think they're best used elsewhere but it seems like they would be viable for AA.  If I'm not mistaken though one could take the Vanilla SM formation no? (the one with the stalker/landspeeder?)

 

But then again that's my meta, and I refuse to take tournaments in this game seriously.  So tournaments could be still the biggest purveyors of fliers and require you to account for them.

[IanSturrock]

I've used Black Knights for anti-air since we first got them in 6th. They work fine as long as you're not up against overwhelming air superiority. Certainly with a unit of 5-6 BKs you will usually take down flyers as soon as you can get a side or rear armour shot on them, or the turn after. That might not be quick enough to prevent them unloading some nasty assault unit, but it's almost always a very efficient way to take down the flyer itself.

[march10k]

yep, twinlinked plasma talons are pretty decent...just enough volume of fire that twinlinking gets you over the top towards having an impact.  PhilB, I don't find it useless at all to point out when and where people's biases are leading them to unsupportable conclusions.  One of the many jobs of an intel analyst, we get paid to review each other's work and look for flaws in one another's reasoning.  And it is flawed reasoning to consider, as the community generally does, autocannons to be the best all-round weapon in the game, great for killing vehicles up to AV12...and then turn around and say that S7 anti-air weapons are nigh-useless, as that would imply that aircraft tend to be AV13 or better, based on the previous reasoning that S7 autocannons are perfectly serviceable against AV12.  In fact, it's even generally accepted that hydras are towards the top of the anit-air hierarchy, but are shunned because they have been nerfed to snap-shoot against ground targets, and because of intense competition for heavy support FOC slots.  

 

The fact is that with the upgrade of its missiles from S6 to S7, the nephilim is actually a perfectly decent dogfighter.  There are a number of reasons that's not more widely accepted.  First, the stigma of being an underwhelming choice still lingers from the days when it had S6 missiles.  That's not going away any time soon, people are still stuck in the thinking that assault marines are overcosted and under-armored.  When they cost 25 points per model, that was certainly true, that's what bikes cost now!  But now, a heavily kitted tactical squad and a moderately kitted assault squad cost about the same, with the tactical squad giving up a little firepower for speed, mobility, hammer of wrath, and the pistol-sword combination for +1A.  I think they're very well balanced against tactical squads now...but people are stuck in their 5th edition thinking!  The second reason that people are still biased against the Nephilim is that they were a bit greedy in their wish-listing before the codex dropped.  I saw a lot of hopeful posts about S8 missiles, which was never likely, but has nevertheless caused some disappointment.  Finally, the missiles are one-use only, with a finite supply.  Assuming that you're firing two per turn, you'd be hard-pressed to run out, considering that you won't be on the table on turn one and it's really hard to keep an enemy flier in your front arc as you move at least the minimum distance every turn with no more than a 90 degree turn.  You will often even find yourself in a position where the best move is to fly off the table into ongoing reserves.  The fact is, at a rate of two missiles per turn, six blackswords and a twinlinked lascannon is ample air-to-air firepower, but people calculate "six missiles, seven turns, it's not enough!"

 

The larger point, though, is that it's useless to complain about not having "elective skyfire" mortis dreads.  That's just not happening, so how about figuring out what does work in the codex as written?

[IndigoJack]

The nephilim really has terrible odds of destroying an AV12 flyer. Assuming you fire 3 missiles and the lascannon at an AV12 flyer, you're looking at an 7.4% chance of knocking it out of the sky factoring in both missile lock, unrelenting hunter, and a 4+ jink save from the opposing flyer. I'm not sure I would call that perfectly decent. And while making an enemy gunship jink is a small victory, if it's a transport your opponent isn't likely to care, as the unit being transported is more important than the guns on the ship.

 

I'm not saying that the nephilim is bad, just not decent against air targets. Strap on an anvenger bolt cannon, and it does wonders against ground targets (thank you, strafing run).

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I think that is the logic (correct, IMHO) behind people saying Nephilim is good vs land but not air targets with same AV. The flyers (and skimmers)can jink away the damage while the same AV ground targets won't have that chance.

[Hidicul]

The nephilim has low odds of taking down an AV 12 flier? Really? I've blasted brokerages out of the sky with one round of avenger fire, granted low chances of that happening often, but I've never failed to take down an enemy flier with the nephilim. Tzeetch is probably the hardest flier to take down, and let's face it, even without flying tzeentch is a pain to take off the board. There is nothing wrong or missing from the nephilim. Personally I'd like a couple more gun options on it like the storm raven has, or even access to the storm raven, but we are not lacking in our air or anti-air support.

[WellSpokenMan]

Flakk Missiles, Quad Guns, Hydras, Icarus, Skyspear, the AC Mortis, and most other AA are all Strength 7 as well.  Str 8 & 9 weapons with Skyfire are rare.  With Unrelenting Hunter and Missile Lock Twin-Linking those missiles, I have a hard time understanding what the better options are.  Sure Strafing Run makes the Nephi better against ground targets than against air targets, but it's still a solid dogfighter. There are only a handful of AV12 fliers anyway.  If your opponent is spamming AV12 fliers, then you should be crushing them on the ground, because those fliers aren't cheap. 

 

I think that a lot of MEQ players got traumatized by the Heldrake and want an AA security blanket, but I don't think you normally need one unless, a.) your opponent runs multiple Heldrakes, or b.) your opponent runs multiple Dark Talons. That's right, we have the scary flier now :cuss

[SvenONE]

Yeah the Heldrake is the source of all the ire for both its cost and what it used to do upon release, and of course the application of fliers as a whole in this game.  For once you had a hard to hit target in addition to being hard to wound/glance.  The Nephilim got an appropriately bad rap in 6th edition for the exact reasons the Heldrake did, but the complete opposite (overcosted, and limited role instead of undercosted and versatile role).

 

I think it's still a bit weird when compared to the Stormtalon, both have pros and cons, but the Stormtalon is still cheaper to make you feel less guilty about taking it.

 

That said, I still don't know if I'd spend points on it, especially that Ravenwing Silence Squadron (which I'm sure I'll run at one point in my life just to say I did).

[PhilB]

Perhaps my initial post should have reference Lion's Blade Strike Forces and not Demi-Companies, which I made the mistake of assuming was implied. I'm enjoying the new book very much and like they've done with it save for this point alone, which is turning into a rather large pit fall for me in games. Maybe it's just my gaming circle but the main guys I wage war with have a real fetish for flyers and I can expect to see 2-3 each game, and we're only talking 1,850-2,000 point games here.

 

I thought this thread was about the pros and cons of the new book? Not toughen up princess and learn to make use of what you've got? As for the FW Mortis having the ability to elect to have Skyfire or not, I think that's just a matter of time. You only need to look at the wording for the new Deredeo to see the difference between the 6th and 7th ED wording.

 

My initial (and apparently biased & incorrect) point was that I'm disappointed with the with the apparent inability to take some form of competent AA when itilising a Lion's Blade. However subjective you interpret my point of view to be, I still see this as a pretty large con in the codex. Also, who mentioned anything about auto cannons? I typically field my Mortis' with duel twin-linked lascannons.

 

You saying the Nephilim is perfectly viable AA, which while I don't agree with (unless you're talking AV10), I still don't feel given the size of the games my circle plays most of the time that dropping 500 points in a Ravenwing Silence Squadron (I'm talking Lion's Blade here remember) is a very cost effective nor competent way to field some AA in your army.

 

Now, I could of course just take another HQ & 2 small troop slots and bring my Mortis that way or the above mentioned RW Black Knights in addition to the Lion's Blade, But it feels like a bit of a cheeky way around it and quite the tax for bringing along 1 or 2 Dreadnoughts. Plus it takes away from the unity and fluff of the army for me, not to mention you lose Supreme Fire Discipline on anything in the CAD.

 

The other option is the bring the vanilla space marine AA formation stand alone, which feels even more far removed from the fluff/unity of the force and more like flat out bringing the perfect tools to list tailor against your opponent. Which you'd likely argue I'm trying to do already, except for the part where it's perfectly fluffy for a single DA Mortis Dreadnought to be providing AA cover his Battle/Demi-Company.

 

Take if from me, when you fight 3 flyers in 90% of your games it gets pretty old and you've not much choice but to fold competent AA into your standard list building or you can expect to be on the back foot every time you play.

[Master Avoghai]

On the flyer point :

Don't Forget that flyers don't necessarily mean : flying machines. I rarely play against storm ravens but I often play against FMC such as Tl devorer HT or flying DP... Against this type of target, the avenger + missiles are REALLY mean because it forces multiple save rolls and often one misses => crash test.

But I recognize that squadron of 3 is a bit costly for a Lion's Blade

 

The only thing I don't understand with the AA argument is the same point as march10k : if a lascannon + 6 S7 missiles are not good because of the jink save, how can a Morris dread can be better? The flyer will get its jink against the Mortis too...

 

.

Now, I could of course just take another HQ & 2 small troop slots and bring my Mortis that way or the above mentioned RW Black Knights in addition to the Lion's Blade, But it feels like a bit of a cheeky way around it and quite the tax for bringing along 1 or 2 Dreadnoughts. Plus it takes away from the unity and fluff of the army for me, not to mention you lose Supreme Fire Discipline on anything in the CAD.

I don't see how it breaks the fluff to include an additional formation... That's how battle forces work : gathering several formations.

 

You won't lose supreme fire discipline if you take a company + a unit of scouts = 2 core + 1 auxiliary.

Then take one librarian (not different from taking an auxiliary inner circle) + 2 other scouts squads and it will be fine.

 

The other option is the bring the vanilla space marine AA formation stand alone, which feels even more far removed from the fluff/unity of the force and more like flat out bringing the perfect tools to list tailor against your opponent. Which you'd likely argue I'm trying to do already, except for the part where it's perfectly fluffy for a single DA Mortis Dreadnought to be providing AA cover his Battle/Demi-Company.

Again I don't see where it goes against the fluff. You can say it's the forge testing the new tanks. After all there's absolutely no differences between a UM rhino pattern tank and a DA one...

 

[march10k]

I guess the point  is that the Nephelim needs to be evaluated relative to alternative options.  S7 is kind of the standard when it comes to anti-air shooting. Sure, a 7.4% chance of blowing an AV12 flier out of the sky in a single round of shooting is low...but are you going to do better with other options?  If the Nephelim is bad, so is every alternative.  Where does that leave us?  

 

Sure, it's better at killing ground targets than air targets.  So?  An avenger strike fighter is better at shooting ground targets, but, especially if equipped with missile launchers, it's way better at killing fliers (offset by being super fragile) than just about anything else I can think of.  Does that mean you should ignore fliers with it and go for the ground targets when you have the choice?  

 

Merging the two issues, what chance does a nephelim have of insta-killing an obscured AV12 ground target in a single round of shooting?  Now offset that by how much more precious and air-to-air kill is...I think the Nephelim is the best option in our codex for killing  enemy air.  If you want to go unbound and throw in a couple of venerable mortis contemptors as an alternative, be my guest!

[HandofAnubis]

Maybe we are looking at this in the wrong light. I mean, if the Nephelim is better against ground units thanks to straffing run then why not us this to your advantage. Ignore their flyers and decimate the gound along with the rest of your army. This should force them to use their fliers to try and bring your Nephelims down which keeps them from engaging your own ground troops with their fliers. I mean this does not help with transports as much, but you can always try with interceptor and the RWSS or BK's.

 

Maybe we need to use all of what we have, the Neph, black nights, and the RWSS etc. These would have great synergy and combined would do a great deal of damage to foes in the air or on the ground.