Pros and cons of the new codex

[WellSpokenMan]

Another option for dealing with Heldrakes or other pesky fliers is Aversion

[DA_WarM]

Another option for dealing with Heldrakes or other pesky fliers is Aversion

 Agreed.  I've silenced a storm raven for two turns with it.

[SvenONE]

Just as an aside, I hate the Deredeo.  For starts it sounds like it should be a car.  "Buy the all new 2016 Chrysler Deredeo, 0% APR no money down!"  I've seen them on the table and i also think they look ridiculous.  Even for Great Crusade/Heresy era models it makes me cringe.  But nevermind that!

 

Getting back to the pros and cons of AA.  PhilB, given your description of your meta, I'd actually say that you sound like you are a candidate for the Jetfighter if you're facing multiple flyers.  Maybe even for the Silence Squadron.  Part of the problem with that formation is the lack of flexibility.  That it HAS to be 2 Jetfighters and not 2 darktalons, or all 3 of one or the other etc is a drag.  More to what's a CON of the Jetfighter is that it's a Rock to Scissors.  The Jetfighter is unapologetically a single target dog-fighter, it's meant to fight a very specific kind of target which I'm not so sure this game has room for.  

 

Like Mater Avoghai mentioned, If you aren't fighting Daemons or Tyranids, you probably aren't going to get the most out of your jetfighter.  If you're dumping your payload on MEQs, you've brought a jackhammer to open a jar of pickles.

 

The most basic dakka flyrant costs well over 200 points, a Daemon Prince with wings and Warp Forged armor about the same, and that's before you give it any specific Daemonic alignment/wargear, a Bloodthirster is close to 300 points.  In the case of the shooty flyers, if the Jetfighter forces a jink that's sort of a win, but can you justify spending 170 or 175 points to NOT kill something, only decrease its effectiveness (rhetorical).  Scoring a wound (unless it's the last one) doesn't change the combat effectiveness of a flying monster.  But once that Flyrant jinks, those 12 S6 shots are now hitting on 6s, sure they're twinlinked, but at least they aren't twinlinked on BS4.

 

So I think when it comes to AA, things like Mortis Dreads and Aegis lines are great because they A) can be on the table from turn 1 B) form a constant bubble and C) can still effectively shoot ground targets.  

 

Conversely the jetfighter is the complete opposite, it's arrival isn't guaranteed, because of it's forced movement, if you aren't careful you can be outmaneuvered, or outmaneuver yourself, and it's just not that great against ground targets if you have no flyers.

 

The jetfighter is, I think, the product of a bad bet on GWs part to make flyers a more serious part of the game.  I personally think they abandoned that in lieu of monstrous creatures and invincible behemoths and we're stuck with this entry in the book.

 

Jetfighter isn't that bad, it's just the game around it doesn't make it perfect for every battle.

[Master Avoghai]

The most basic dakka flyrant costs well over 200 points, a Daemon Prince with wings and Warp Forged armor about the same, and that's before you give it any specific Daemonic alignment/wargear, a Bloodthirster is close to 300 points. In the case of the shooty flyers, if the Jetfighter forces a jink that's sort of a win, but can you justify spending 170 or 175 points to NOT kill something, only decrease its effectiveness (rhetorical). Scoring a wound (unless it's the last one) doesn't change the combat effectiveness of a flying monster. But once that Flyrant jinks, those 12 S6 shots are now hitting on 6s, sure they're twinlinked, but at least they aren't twinlinked on BS4.

Well you know, I'd be terribly annoyed if a 170pts flyer could kill a 250pts FMC or flyer in one single shot... ;)

 

Part of the answer is actually in the clarification of the RWSF formation. If you can take a tech on bike and 2 nephelims, then problem is solved.

The detachment allows you to take them in reserve and they all unter the same time during the turn YOU decide.

 

Also don't forget the in relenting hunter rules. Forcing immobilized result is forcing crash tests and removing additional HP.

Same thing against a FMC : a 1/3 to finish on the ground AND take an additional hit AND being shot at by the ramaining units on the ground is NOT something to neglect...

[WellSpokenMan]

It would have been nice to be able to take a Mortis Dread in the Lion's Blade, but I still think that in most games AA isn't a huge requirement. That of course, could change with the next codex released.

@ SvenONE - That's my problem with most flying vehicles. You lose a turn of effectiveness right off the bat, and they put you in the paper, rock, scissors game. A ground attack flier is good unless your opponent brought AA. AA is good unless your opponent doesn't bring something to shoot with it. Flying transports are a different story, but we don't have one of those

[FarFromSam]

915 for 22 ob sec units, and 5 scouts. That's huge, and to me, that compensates the loss of force org swap.

 

Ravenwing see The boon of rerollable jink, and, in itc, have lost the mandatory Sammael tax. And the cherry on top that sets them even higher is the return of attack bike squads. Quick question, I don't have my brb, but does skilled rider on a independent character transfer to the unit it joins?

 

Deathwing gets useful sergeants again, lose the Belial tax, but have the pure Deathwing option stripped. But even more than that is the cost didn't go down enough, nor gain enough to make them appealing over other choices. I know, I know, fearless and mix in storm shield, but it's just not enough. Especially so with the loss of first turn drop. Which also really hurts the refreshed Deathwing knights (which I love)

 

Surprising boost to basic command squad too! 140 for five ob sec vets with melta guns and a drop pod. (Lion's blade.)

 

I'm happy, I'll be happy for a while. This codex has done what a good codex should, make me think, give New useable options, and make me play differently.

 

Final note, biiiiig disappointment with Azzy, he was my favorite hq choice, I'll miss fielding him. Going to have him scour the rock for the next couple years.

 

Oh! Final final note, Zeke! How cool is the new book he picked up! Love that plus one.

[DarkAngeal]

You can still put Azzy in a lion's blade, and if you go double demi, then run him and ezekiel for the huge steamroller those two are together. They add so much protection and punch to a unit, you could run them with servitors and come out on top! I haven't met the unit that has conquered my command squad in cc when they are with it!

 

By far my favourite codex change is Ezekiel. +1 attack, AND 3 ML to put into any psychic domain instead of having to sink 1 into mind worm every time.

[Jazzhands]

Yeah but mind worm is kinda awsome now. I have managed to kill a tau tank with it and blow an orc bomber from the sky

[DeamonQC]

You can still put Azzy in a lion's blade, and if you go double demi, then run him and ezekiel for the huge steamroller those two are together. They add so much protection and punch to a unit, you could run them with servitors and come out on top! I haven't met the unit that has conquered my command squad in cc when they are with it!

 

By far my favourite codex change is Ezekiel. +1 attack, AND 3 ML to put into any psychic domain instead of having to sink 1 into mind worm every time.

 

I may be wrong (don't have the codex with me) but even with 2 demi company I think you can't have more than 1 inner circle formation, hence you can't have both Ezekiel and Azrael in the same Lion Blade.  However you can definitly run them together in a CAD.

[marti350]

 

You can still put Azzy in a lion's blade, and if you go double demi, then run him and ezekiel for the huge steamroller those two are together. They add so much protection and punch to a unit, you could run them with servitors and come out on top! I haven't met the unit that has conquered my command squad in cc when they are with it!

 

By far my favourite codex change is Ezekiel. +1 attack, AND 3 ML to put into any psychic domain instead of having to sink 1 into mind worm every time.

 

I may be wrong (don't have the codex with me) but even with 2 demi company I think you can't have more than 1 inner circle formation, hence you can't have both Ezekiel and Azrael in the same Lion Blade.  However you can definitly run them together in a CAD.

 

You can get one inner circle for every core choice. So two demi companies gets you two inner circles

[Wraith776]

You can take one command choice for each core choice. in this case the Inner circle is the command and the Demi-Company is the core.

[DarkAngeal]

Therefore if you go double demi, then you can take both azrael and ezekiel

[Knight Master Eladric]

You could also always do a lions blade with 1 Demi and Azrael, and throw a librarius conclave in.

[WellSpokenMan]

That might be a better idea.  Squeezing two functional Demi-Companies, Azrael, Ezekiel, and a Command Squad worth attaching them to is getting tight.  I suppose you could just lump all the HQs together with an Assault Squad, but the Command Squad is the better choice.

[SvenONE]

 Squeezing two functional Demi-Companies, Azrael, Ezekiel, and a Command Squad worth attaching them to is getting tight. 

 

I agree with this, Azrael is just junk in general and in my opinion not really worth bringing if you're playing seriously.  For fun? To hold your fist high to the heavens and tell your opponent that the grand master himself has taken matters into his own hands? Sure.

 

It's regrettable that you can't take one of the inner circle members in a Demi Company as the HQ.  It's sort of silly to me to have a DEMI COMPANY TAX to bring one of those HQs.  I've looked at the 2x demi company thing, and I don't think you can run an effective list with any of those inner circle members save for maybe Ezekiel or a stock Librarian AND that means ignoring the command/dread/vets slots to save space elsewhere.  You're going to need all the points you can to bring your Auxillary which usually clock in around 250+ points unless you're bringing scouts.

[RayJ]

I have run Azrael in competitive lists since 6th edition as a huge multiplier for my death star. Azrael + RW command + Librarian conclave is a monster in a combined arms detachment

[DarkAngeal]

Azrael junk? No way mate. Like Ray has just stated, he's a great multiplier. I run him in a greenwing command squad with an apothecary so I can take furious charge as his warlord trait. Add ezekiel, and the chaplain or company master that you are running for the lion's blade, and maybe a few extra librarians and you have a rolling deathstar that can kill ANYTHING in close combat. Azrael becomes a monster, strength 7 with 7 attacks on the charge. AP3. Do you have a daemon prince that needs killing? Tool the chaplain with a power fist for those 2+ opponents, and mix 1 or 2 into the command squad.

Even monstrous creatures will struggle with the blanket 4+ invulnerable and 5+ FNP

[Caldria]

That is one crazy expensive unit though. Which can only take out one unit per turn - they are also slow so once they're out of their transport they'll have one assault to really make their mark. After that they'll be a bit of a dead weight (with only the librarians really doing anything) Also, the demon prince can easily just avoid that unit if he wants to. That being said, I really want to make Azzy work too.

Az + zeke is a potent combo, but it then comes down to what to put them with. A command squad would be great but 5 models is too few to really benefit from the buffs. Then you have veterans, which are.... ok. I still don't like them - I prefer the command squad over them, even with the fewer models.

A deathwing command would be decent, but way more expensive and have to be in a transport as Azrael and Ezekial can't drop with them. I don't know if we can get a proper assault unit with Az + Zeke that isnt outrageously expensive and slow. I'd kit out the command squad to be mostly shooty and rely on the units assault capability as a bonus or situational skill rather than their primary goal. Then drop pod them with other pods/termies for support. Adding in 2 librarians to make a conclave can also help out the units overall versatility in both shooting and combat. (I think the unit will be just that, a very versatile unit that can handle most things though should focus on shooting and always being a thorn in the enemy's side)

[RayJ]

I can definitely take out multiple units a turn in assault. Large footprint with lots of speed.

 

Shooting is for suppression/utility in that unit. Most of the damage is done in psychic and assault phases, and it's easy to pull out of dangerous combats with the RW banner. 12-14 models (20+ wounds) with great saves, fnp, and lots of bonuses is a force to be reckoned with

[Caldria]

I can definitely take out multiple units a turn in assault. Large footprint with lots of speed.

 

Shooting is for suppression/utility in that unit. Most of the damage is done in psychic and assault phases, and it's easy to pull out of dangerous combats with the RW banner. 12-14 models (20+ wounds) with great saves, fnp, and lots of bonuses is a force to be reckoned with

I wasn't actually really referring to this unit :D

I actually have no idea how this unit would perform haha!

 

But It's an interesting combo, I've never ever made a unit where not everything can move at the same speed though - Do Azrael and Ezekial not slow down the ravenwing too much?

[SvenONE]

I think we really need to stop calling Azrael a "force" multiplier.  Calgar, Ghazgkhull, Creed, Rakarth, Khan, Khârn, Ahriman, etc.  those are force multipliers, models whose special rules change the core of a list and the strategy of an army on the table.  The only thing Azrael does for his force is give an entire table LD10.  LD10 is good, look at Necrons for how good it is.  But that's also because they don't have Stubborn or ATSKNF, two major USRs that make LD8 or 9 significantly better.  All it really comes down to is that he can give 4++ to his squad.  Which, if you take the 215 points he costs, you can probably just give storm shields out, or you know, buy a whole squad a terminators.

 

Running Azrael with a Conclave and a kitted out command squad is probably around 700 points.  If you're spending 700 points of bodies to kill a Daemon prince, or a squad of Boyz, gaunts, etc I think you're spending too much.  It's no doubt a fun setup, but hardly practical in my opinion.  Meanwhile on the other side of the table your opponent, for slightly more, can have 2 imperial knights who drop a bunch of blast templates that ID everyone in that squad.  More to it, if that's your list in a Lion's Blade, what do you even have left for your Demi Company/Auxillary that they can effectively be fielded?

 

My problem with Azrael, aside from his seemingly lacking combat prowess compared to other LOWs or Chapter Masters, is the cost associated.  There is now no scenario in this game where Azrael is able to be fielded without having to spend MORE points in the form of another HQ or the CM/Chaplain in the case of the LB.

 

A Company Master with Artificer Armor, Shroud of Heroes, Mace of Redemption and Digital Weapons is 55 points cheaper than Azrael, over 100 if you consider the HQ tax before even taking Azrael.  He has one less attack, doesn't come with a combi weapon, doesn't give out a 4++ to his squad or give LD10 out to everyone.  But he hits just as hard and can blind/concus his opponents.  With all those leftover points, I can just GIVE my command squad storm shields.

 

I'm sorry, aside from fluff and fun factor I don't see anything practical about Azrael, and I certainly won't call him a force multiplier.

[WellSpokenMan]

The one thing I like about Azrael for a CC unit is his ability to take the Rapid Manoeuvre trait.  Unfortunately, if you want Azzie to get the most out of his points you have to put him in a IG blob, where he can hand out that 4++ to enough guys to make your opponent cry.  The RM warlord trait is better there too, as it combines with orders to make for a frighteningly  mobile blob.

[Hidicul]

Add a nemesis strike force to get sanctuary and watch the units 4++ become a 3++ and put a psycannon into the squad at the same time and probably hammer hand to beef the unit up in cc

[Caldria]

Yeah thats the issue with Azrael - I still believe he is a force multiplier, just not on the same level as Calgar and friends. He's not a great force multiplier sure, but he's not terrible at it. Though it is certainly ridiculous that he's a LoW... laughable : p

The problem comes in with having him with the unit that best benefits from his tricks.. and unfortunately that unit isn't really in our codex.
A 30 - 50 man IG blob is roughly on par with having a fully kitted out command squad and librarians etc. (and often actually cheaper)

and that 30+ blob has more staying power, and more damage output through sheer numbers than a fully kitted command squad. I hate that he is great in another codex while average in our own : /

 

[RayJ]

Do none of you work on board control with your units and solely worry about wiping out x or y unit?

 

I have never had the deathstar fail to be awesome. It hits multiple units, weakens them all, ties them up, and then runs out to reposition and take better control of the situation.

 

The rest of the list is very MSU oriented. There are plenty of units of objectives, and you absolutely control the middle of the board, which is where you should be placing your objectives for Maelstrom of War.

 

Zeke and Azrael do slow the unit down a little bit, but after turn 2 you are mostly just repositioning in the middle objective bubble. They give the unit a ton of survivability and the extra punch to make multiple charges really work.

 

I think 700-900 points for that much board control in an 1850-2000 point list is perfect. 20 wounds with 4++ and FNP with varying cover and armor saves. It really does work, but it's much more about board control and less about wiping units out.

 

When you hit and run out you give your other units better targets, and then you assault back on any elements of the enemy that would be harmful to the rest of your force. By turn 4 your opponent doesn't really get to select many targets and you totally dictate the flow of the game and get more objectives.