Volth Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Greetings battle brothers, as Space Wolves are still to be released I chose Sons of Horus for substitution. Coming back to 40k after some time, discovering 30k blew my mind. That's exactly what I dreamt of, years ago. Now FW models come at quite a price, and I'd like to have a list of 2000 points in advance which is solid. I don't like to proxy and I won't be able to play for the next half year, so testing the army by trial-and-error will not be possible at first and too expensive later. I am grateful for any advice on the list and post a small discussion at the end of the thread, but also general advice on 30k is greatly appreciated. I don't need to be tournament-winning, but tournament-ready with the army. V 2 HQ 310 Centurion Chaplain Volcite serpenta, artificer armour Centurion Master of Signal Volcite charger, artificer armour, melta bombs Damocles Command Rhino Troops 635 Tactical Squad 15 marines, vexillum, melta bombs Tactical Squad 15 marines, vexillum Tactical Squad 15 marines, vexillum Fast Attack 748 Reaver Attack Squad 9 marines, power fist, 8 chain axes Storm Eagle Assault Gunship TL multi-melta TL lascannons Storm Eagle Assault Gunship TL multi-melta TL lascannons Heavy Support 305 Caestus Assault Ram Centurions and Apothecaries are going into the reavers. Breachers into Storm Eagle and everything is meant to start in reserves. That's 6 units, 42 models. In your opinion, how fast does it get cut down? Can it deal enough damage to succeed? MSU would get more out of the Reaver Onslaught special rule - is it necessary? Do you think this army will do well? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312342-2000-space-wolves-aka-sons-of-horus/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 A few problems stood out with your list 1) A Legion Praetor must take Terminator armour if he wants to take a Terminator command squad - if you take Cataphractii armour, there is no point for the Iron halo as you already get a 4+ invul 2) Apothecaries cannot join Reavers 3) Justaerin can only take a multi-melta if the squad numbers 5 or more, not the minimum squad size of 3, I did a mental calculation and it seemed like you didn't have the points for 5 but I could be wrong Welcome to the Sons of Horus! Black Reaving is a hard Rite of War to run effectively (I've sought out lots of advice myself on how best to do so), especially in 2,000 points. ere's some list specific advice: - Do you really need/like 20 Breachers? They're basically a tarpit unit, and actually end up being worse than tacticals/reavers 9 times out of 10. They don't get many attacks on the charge, if you replaced them with 20 ordinary marines they'd do a better job for cheaper. If you do want to run Breachers, run 10-15 tops and put a unit that you want assaulting (like 10-15 Reavers) in the Storm Eagle. - Reavers are best kept cheap, and in large squads. I run either 10 man in Dreadclaws or 10-15 man with Jump Packs. 5 guys with power weapons may hit like a truck, but with only 5 people and no transport they're just going to die before they make it into combat, even if they outflank. No melta bombs etc mean that they can't pop transports either, and with 5 you won't outnumber anybody for 'merciless fighters'. - The Praetor & command squad cannot deep strike, as they are not Justaerin. If they're walking across the board, they aren't going to kill anything! - Why 2 Masters of Signal? The Master of Signal is pretty useless in a close combat focused list anyway, +1 BS doesn't matter, the orbital bombardment is nice you can't move/assault when you do it. One is a requirement, but two is probably unnecessary. General Sons of Horus tips - Reavers are amazing, try to make sure they outnumber their opponents though. If they have Jump Packs, they count as 2x each for the purposes of outnumbering - Justaerin are great models but horrifically overpriced - Breachers aren't very good, especially in a mobility focused SoH list, as they're more of a tarpit unit. If you want to play Zone Mortalis, consider picking them up, otherwise I would avoid running blob squads of 20. As for Black Reaving, remember that in 30k MSU is punished by points taxes which makes it difficult, especially in smaller games. 5 man Reaver squads only need to take a handful of casualties before they run, and even if they don't it's unlikely they'll be able to break larger units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312342-2000-space-wolves-aka-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4146152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volth Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 Wow, obviously I missed a lot. Now I see where SoH and their rite of war are complicated. Merciless Fighters favours large squads, while Cut them Down demands multiple units. I'll need some time thinking this through. To get something out of Cut them Down I'd have to start melee in the early phases of the game. Probably by large recon squads that infiltrate, to charge by turn two and survive until the reserves come in and wreak havoc. Is there any way to protect that master of signal without rendering one squad a sitting duck? A barebone master with minimal command squad would still be 185 points for one orbital strike while deploying the master alone is almost certain death. The whole concept of The Black Reaving seems to pull in absolute opposite directions. I guess the sons just demand tactical experts as a commander. Prove worthy of the supreme warmaster or perish! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312342-2000-space-wolves-aka-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4146555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Failbaddon Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 If you want some tips on troops, just go with Reavers & Tacticals. I personally take my Reavers thusly: 10-Man Chieftain: Artificer Armour, Power Fist, Melta Bombs, Hand Flamer Reavers: 2 Power Weapons, 2 Flamers, 7 Chainaxes Dedicated Transport: Dreadclaw (392pts) I personally prefer Dreadclaws to Jump Packs, as you can come in Turn 1, heat blast, move flat out and then jink to keep your guys safe. Then deploy and assault by turn 2. They'll get a hell of a lot of attacks on the charge. Use them to trap valuable enemy units in combat, we're talking more shooty things that can pick of your guys before they can assault. If they're locked in combat, their firepower is worthless. Jump packs are good, as they give you HoW and mean that each guy counts as 2 models for the purpose of merciless fighters, but they leave you vulnerable to enemy fire, so take these guys in units of 15 if you decide to take Jump Packs. If you take Reavers in 10-man squads, I'd also take 1-2 20-man Tactical Squads with extra CCWs (and an Apothecary if you can afford it). Put these guys in a Storm Eagle, use the Reavers to trap important enemy units in close combat, then bring in these guys. If they charge a unit in combat with the Reavers, they'll get Rage from the Black Reaving and also will likely get their merciless fighters attacks. Do you plan on fielding these guys as fluffy Space Wolves or SoH with a Space Wolves colour scheme? If it is the latter, then here is another tip: orbital support is your friend. Your orbital bombardments will lay waste to dangerous enemy units. Watch Eldar players cry as you destroy their D-Scythe wielding Wraithguard. Maybe replace 1 MoS with a Damocles, then your other MoS has a place to ride. You also get an orbital bombardment, no deep strike scatter within 24" and the option to have +1/-1 to your reserves rolls. Yes, you can have 2+ re-rollable reserves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312342-2000-space-wolves-aka-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4147103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volth Posted August 15, 2015 Author Share Posted August 15, 2015 I prefer a balance of fluffy and beefy. So I'll hesitate taking Jump Packs. Still I'm a fan of everything coming down from orbit. So I probably had great fun with two MoS plus a Damocles. Problem here is no Black Reaving and getting shot to pieces in all cases of not getting first turn. Reavers in Dreadclaws with tacticals in Storm Eagles sounds like a decent base. I'm thinking of an army that starts with one or two large tacticals on the table to distract from Damocles and MoS. In reserve a tactical in Storm Eagle and Dreadclaw Reavers for the spare points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312342-2000-space-wolves-aka-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4147318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Failbaddon Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Also, be aware that your Praetor can take a unit of Justaerin as a bodyguard, but they are ludicrously over-costed. I doubt that if you're wanting to field a SW list, you'll take any named characters, but Horus is always an excellent choice if you can fit him in. He is easily the best Primarch in combat and tactically, I'd say the only one who matches him is Alpharius. He's also a really great way to safely bring in big units of terminators. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312342-2000-space-wolves-aka-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4147410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volth Posted August 17, 2015 Author Share Posted August 17, 2015 On some further thoughts I have one list design I would love leading against the heretics. It abandons the Black Reaving, but I rather have my orbital strikes in. Deployment is pretty obvious: while the MoS is cowardly hiding tactically entrenching in his Damocles anything else has to come from reserves. Usually. There may be exceptions when it is necessary to deploy infantry right from the start. The roles are tacticals for the dakka, Reavers for the pounding, transports hunting tanks and HQ as a bait while securing my reserves to come in - at nearly 100% second turn. The army relies on superior mobility, so taking out transports will be cruicial. If the bait was a success the opponents hammers will be stranded and I can take on the weaker parts from the edges, avoiding what comes around. If the bait doesn't work, there will definitely be pie plates (as I can order bombardment from inside the Damocles, right?). Problems I see foremost against specialised anti-air armies. Also if the opponent returns the favor, destroying my transports, then the sitting duck will be me. It is probably not a far too strong build, but looks fun to play and very wolfy! HQ 85 Centurion Chaplain 85 Centurion Master of Signal 100 Damocles Command Rhino Troops 300 Tactical Squad 20 marines, CCW, vexillum, nuncio-vox 300 Tactical Squad 20 marines, CCW, vexillum, nuncio-vox Fast Attack 295 Reaver Attack Squad 9 marines, 2 power fists, 7 power weapons 265 Storm Eagle Assault Gunship TL multi-melta TL lascannons 265 Storm Eagle Assault Gunship TL multi-melta TL lascannons Heavy Support 305 Caestus Assault Ram Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312342-2000-space-wolves-aka-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4148741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caillum Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Yeah, you would probably want more bodies starting on the board - I'd be worried that your Damocles and MoS could die pretty easily in the 1st Turn, thereby giving your opponent the win. Also, I answered your Bombardment query as I see it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312342-2000-space-wolves-aka-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4148769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volth Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share Posted September 22, 2015 Thinking it through quite a lot, my concept is now in its final shape. FIrst I will raise a force of 1500 pts for first blood in HH. Then I will go up to 2500. The concept of mostly dropping down from orbit stayed pretty much the same. Now I will put some tanks as anchors on the battlefield right from the start. On the one hand they will help the reserves to get in early on the other for pure purposes of posing bigger threats than air cavalry. One question remains - the Deathstorm drop pod, is it held in reserves as usual, or do the drop pod rules apply, allowing it to thin out AA by turn 1? Phase I - Space Wolves 1500 HQ 85 Centurion Chaplain Troops 205 Tactical Squad 15 Marines Power fist, artificer armour 270 Breacher Siege Squad 10 Marines 2 Lascutters Power fist, artificer armour Fast Attack 265 Storm Eagle Assault Gunship TL Multi-melta TL Lascannons Heavy Support 120 Deathstorm Drop Pod Krak launchers 305 Caestus Assault Ram 250 Land Raider Proteus Explorator Augury Web Phase II - Space Wolves 2499 HQ 85 Centurion Chaplain 100 Damocles Command Rhino Elites 45 Apothecarion Detachment Apothecary Troops 289 Tactical Squad 18 Marines 17 CCW Power fist, artificer armour 270 Breacher Siege Squad 10 Marines 2 Lascutters Power fist, artificer armour Fast Attack 265 Storm Eagle Assault Gunship TL Multi-melta TL Lascannons 205 Xiphon Pattern Interceptor Heavy Support 120 Deathstorm Drop Pod Krak launchers 305 Caestus Assault Ram 250 Land Raider Proteus Explorator Augury Web Lord of War 565 Fellblade Armoured ceramite Space marine crew Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312342-2000-space-wolves-aka-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4178504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Lascutters are absolutely not worth it. The only time you should consider them (and even then its still not worth it) is in ZM games where you need to breach Bulkhead Doors since you autohit and ignore the Lascutters rule that forces the wielder to hit at WS1. Melta Guns trump them in every instance, even Graviton Guns at Heavy 1 are better since they have Haywire and their Persistent Template can slow things down. Even a Breaching Charge, which has a chance to kill a lot of your own marines, is a better bet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312342-2000-space-wolves-aka-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4178533 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volth Posted November 12, 2015 Author Share Posted November 12, 2015 Times has passed and I've been thinking the list through a lot. I wanted a Mobile Cavalry-style list, but it seemd more and more like a one-trick pony either destroying the opponent or getting wasted. Also Betrayal at Calth comes at exactly the right moment and features the wonderful maximus armour which I was about to order from Forgeworld anyway. So the pretty much final stage of my HH army will be more of a ground force. It will be 1500 points and CAD-compliant. I need little more than one BoC (nonetheless two boxes have been ordered ), a Rhino and a Caestus to realize it. And I won't use the SoH army list, but instead the generic Legion with Furious Charge. I'll just have patience until SW finally get their own ruleset. HQ 95 Centurion Chaplain Artificer armour 120 Centurion Primus Medicae Cataphractii terminator armour Elites 305 Terminator Squad 7 marines Chainfists 180 Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought Two Kheres pattern assault cannons Troops 275 Tactical Squad 20 marines Artificer armour, power fist 220 Tactical Squad 10 marines Legion vexilla Artificer armour, power fist Rhino Heavy Support 305 Caestus Assault Ram Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312342-2000-space-wolves-aka-sons-of-horus/#findComment-4223071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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