Prot's Ultra's vs Wolves: 1500 Batrep w/Pics

[Prot]

Hey guys,

Just a quick batrep today. I try to post one out of every 3-5 UM games and same with my Grey Knights.... but this one will be fairly brief due to some things I gotta get done today.

We played a Maelstrom game with 3 cards each, every turn. Our deployment was corner to corner (diagonal)

My list was based off of conversation in the forum where I was trying to figure out a half working Gladius or even Demi-co based on 1500 pts. My list was:

Sicarius

10 Tacticals Grav Cannon, Plasma Gun, Vet w/Power Sword (Infiltrating thanks to Sicarius)

10 Tacticals (Combat squaded) 5 x bolters w/Missile launcher, 5- 1 meltagun, Combi melta Pod

5 Tacticals 1 Missile launcher

5 Assault Marines, 2 flamers, Vet w/Power Sword

3 Grav Cents

- Stormwing: 2 Talons, 1 Stormraven.

Wolves:

Rune Priest (WL) with grey hunters in rhino

5 Thunder wolves (2 hammer/shields)

10 Grey Hunters Drop Pod

10 Grey Hunters mounted in SW Flyer

2 Dreadnaughts in Pods (one was a shield variant, one was a clawed version)

The Game:

I get first turn, he fails to seize. I deploy and aside from my Flyers I decide to put everything out including my Centurions because he doesn't have super long firepower, and will definitely be trying to get into CC with me.

There wasn't really much to see in the first turn. I deploy and it's with Missile squads back, and Centurions joined with Sicarius and up front is Assault Squad and Infiltrated Grav Cannon squad.

He deploys his flyer with cargo on the table in hover mode, and his Rhino as well. He puts his 5 Thunderwolves fairly deep. They are a huge threat and I know as always with my Ultra's they are horrid in any thing resembling close combat.

+ My deployment: Fairly defensive, wanting to protect the Centurions and make sure I can use my ObSec to my advantage if possible. +

First Turns:

- He fails to seize. I decide my Pod with Melta's MUST go after the Thunderwolves, and I did infiltrate my Grav Cannon squad to take some bite out of the thunder wolves!

I unload into him, the Pod Squad does nothing... horrible deviation, and no melta's can reach. But even with the Tactcial Doctrine in play, my Grav cannon Tacticals with Plasma gun only kill 3. That includes missile launcher shots from 2 squads..... and a ton of bolter fire.

- Centurions have no shots.

- My cards include a mix of things... one objective point is sitting in my zone, another requires my Assault squad to go after it, veering a little close to the Wolves Rhino. I get those two points, but no first blood.

- Wolves come in with two pods and threaten the middle of the table very early. Grey Hunters come pouring out of a pod, while the Clawed Dread deviates his pod right between my Tactical squad that came in a pod, and my Grav Tacticals.....

+ It's not looking too good... Thunderwolves (out of the picture) have eaten ALL but 1 Ultramarine so I don't break, unfortunately. Here the Wolves reinforcements come in, threatening the Grav Tacticals. Meanwhile Centurions and Sicarius come up to reinforce. +

- His Flyer advances. Also his Rhino with Rune Priest gets off Prescience, and Perfect Timing, and he fires Plasma gun/Plasma Pistol out the hatch killing 2 Assault Marines.

- He gets 1 objective point.

+My assault squad rushes to help the over powered Grav Tactical Squad. Are they in time? Will this be the first game they earn a measly 100 points back? Stay tuned.+

- My Stormwing comes in on Turn 2:

They split up. The Stormraven comes in hot on the tails of the Wolves' flyer, and lets everything fly. He declares a jink, but the stormraven fails with 2 missiles, multimelta, and one single assault cannon shot put a glancing blow on the Wolves' flyer but he jinks it. Ouch.

- One Stormtalon opens up on the Rune Priest Rhino. It takes everything, but the Rhino is destroyed, and the Wolves pile out, and still move towards my core units.

- The other Stormtalon comes in and tries to take down a Dreadnaught. He fails miserably. The missile launchers put some glances on the Dreadnaught and a pod.

- Finally the Grav Cents roll up and blow the Dread up, and split fire to take a Pod down another hullpoint.

- The Thunderwolves destroy the last Melta Tactical dude, and will now be going after the juicy Grav Tactical squad. So they are in big trouble.... The Grey Hunters are firing at them as well.

- The Assault Squad rushes in to save the Grav Tactical squad laying down 2 flamers, killing 2 Wolves! WOW. They continue to outperform! They can assault, but the 2 they killed are going to make it too far. The Grav-Tactical squad stands their ground, and kills 5+ more leaving a few left that gets shot up by bolter fire. That buys me a bit of time, but now that the Thunderwolves are free, I'm in trouble still.

+ Stormtalon destroys the Wolves' Rhino, putting the Grey Hunters and Warlord on foot. +

+This is just before the Assault Squad moved in: The Grey Hunters exchange fire with the Grav Tacticals and die. The Dread (above) is shot down by the Centurions, but Sicarius can see just out of the picture that the Thunderwolves are freed up now, and are rushing towards to reinforce the Grey Hunters. Will he make it in time? Will the greatest 'Duelist' of the Ultramarines shine? Or perform like Wolf dung? +

MID GAME:

- The Wolves miss a reinforcement on the Shield Dread but he does come down in turn 3.

- My Stormraven finally destroys the Wolves' flyer, getting me an objective point. The contents pour out and they come in behind the Shield Dread.

+ Here comes trouble. Sicarius: The Master Duelist must break off to help the Grav Tactical squad in Close combat vs the Thunderwolves. This leaves the Centurions to commit massed firepower to the Dreadnaught that just came in..... Or the remnant Rhino Squad that is rushing in off screen to the right: Big decision time!+

- Sicarius joins the close combat. But he MUST turn it around as the 2 remaining Thunderwolves from the opening turn of the game have been mulching through everything.

- There is only one remaining assault squad guy with a flamer left. He rushes off scene above to flame the Rune Priest/Rhino Squad on foot. A stormtalon opens up on the first killing quite a few. The Flamer on the assault marine wounds only 2 guys killing none....

This makes for a hard decision shown above. The Centurions decide to gun down the Warlord Rune Priest. In a hail of Grav fire, the Grey Hunters/Rune Priest are eliminated from the battlefield getting me Warlord kill.

- The second Stormtalon opens up on the shield dread getting one hullpoint. The Stormraven hovers in and unloads on the Shield Dread side armour (no saves) and manages to barely get the last hullpoint.

- I amass as many points as possible. I can't stop the remants of the tide from coming in, and do my old Ultra playstyle of 'get as many points as possible and hide'. But wait... there 'Sicarius'!

+ Will the bleeding stop? Of course it will. The greatest duelist of the Ultramarines is here now folks!+

- The 2 Thunderwolves have been mercilessly chewing through my army. The 2 that lived from turn one still stand with one wound a piece. Sicarius rushes in after seeing so many of his brothers die. More die, and more... the Assault flamer guy rushes in here too to bail out the Grav Tactical squad.... but he dies as well.

- Sicarius is up in base to base vs a guy with no shield, so I do normal attacks, 5 attacks... re-rolling 1's (Tactical Doctrine), and fail to wound their toughness 5 beasts. As a result the rest of the Tactical squad is wiped to a man.

- Sicarius next turn fails to wound again, and takes a swift hammer to the head, once again dueling his way to a very repetitive scene of eating dirt and making zero contribution. Duelist indeed! .... of dirt.

END GAME:

- I amass more points with hovering flyers. The score is well in my favour, but two Thunderwolves still won't die... they wipe out Sicarius, and everything else that I threw into that close combat, but now they take the bullets from a Stormtalon and 2 krak missiles, finally ending their rampage.

- The Centurions are alone in mid field now. The flyers are taking down remnant pods and the Centurions are stuck in close combat:

+ Mid field is bloodied beyond belief. Only one Centurion remains. He manages to stamp out a life, but is ultimately killed in the end.+

- We call it after turn 6. He has this remnant (flyer survivors) squad left, and I have my 3 flyers still, and 2 x 5 man missile squads, and a pod.

- I have 14 points total to his 3. (Plus he would have had line breaker I think at that point).

Conclusion:

- That's it for Sicarius. I've tried to use this guy for at least 10 games now. He's just way overpriced, and his best rule is actually infiltrating a squad of Taticals. The rest just never comes into play for me and his 'duelist' rules just don't really reflect anything remotely... duelist in nature. He's just too pricey and a far better choice is a vanilla dude with a Relic Blade.

- Close Combat continues to be a nightmare for this army. Every one I face usually slams into the Centurions (since they are the biggest threat in the army.) This is a rare game where I did not take LibCon and I felt it. But at 1500 I just don't think it's feasible in a Gladius.

- Gladius is fun, but still feels inefficient. It feels ultra-ish to play and that's why I do it. To make a Demi-Co into a Gladius is very hard at 1500. We normally play 1850 but I was helping a friend test a tournament list. I've considered using Ultra for that tournament but it's not looking too good.

- It was a super fun game. Some funny moments, but what 2 surviving Thunderwolves did to my army is downright scary. It might be time for me to return to 1st Co Auxiliary with some TH/Shield Termies and Sternguard.

Thanks for reading!

[markham82]

Thanks for the batrep. How about allying some of your Grey knights to solve your close combat woes?

[minigun762]

Considering how poorly Sicarius performed, what do you think would have to be added to him to make him worthwhile?

[Prot]

Honestly I can be such a sucker for a theme. The reality is I've had one good game with him since the new codex came out. It was a coupe de gras against a flyrant. Otherwise he's been very poor.

 

I actually think replacing him with a simple chaplain with jump pack not only is cheaper but also might empower my lacklustre assault squad. I could also put an axe in there if the chappy can take challenges. This change in theory could solve two problems at once.

[SyNidus]

Good game and well played, my first thoughts when looking at your army is that it lacks proper bite, but I think it's because other than the centurions, you've only got one unit that by itself poses a big threat, which is the Dev cents. I'm surprised his grey hunters didn't seem to do much damage, at the end of the day, that's still a 10 man tac and it should be able to put a dent in most things.

[jeremy1391]

Couple problems I see.

 

His rune priest can't cast blessings while inside a vehicle, he ca only shoot witch fires out of the hatch.

 

Also how did his flyer start on the table??? Flyers HAVE to start in reserve unless you have a sky shield landing pad with the "fueled and ready" upgrade.

 

And Cato isn't a super awesome warlord, he is there to infiltrate a squad and be mediocre in close combat.

[Prot]

Thanks for the batrep. How about allying some of your Grey knights to solve your close combat woes?

 

 

- I appreciate the thought. I just have a lot of trouble doing that. I really like trying to make this stuff work without... crutches. For lack of a better term. I know if I start including GK for my assault issues, and put Ultra's in my GK lists for my shooting issues, I'll have one heck of a list, and play neither army in particular. It's just too easy. ;)

 

 

Good game and well played, my first thoughts when looking at your army is that it lacks proper bite, but I think it's because other than the centurions, you've only got one unit that by itself poses a big threat, which is the Dev cents. I'm surprised his grey hunters didn't seem to do much damage, at the end of the day, that's still a 10 man tac and it should be able to put a dent in most things.

 

- I'll be honest, this is how I win 9/10 of my Ultra games: Play to stack objective points ASAP. Then try not to die. Out maneuver, out think, duck and dodge, set up mismatches, or even delay tactics in tarpit scenarios.... whatever, just make the points early and try not to get tabled. That's my Ultra's in a nutshell.

 

- So what you're saying is aside from my Centurions, the only scary squad I have is... my centurions? lol Yes, I see what you did there. Fair enough, I have to agree.

 

I try to empower the multiple Doctrines through the squad that uses them best: Tactical squads. So even at 1500 I'm taking no less than 25 tacticals. After so many games I can see you really just feel the -re-roll of Bolters is what they're truly getting out of it. Sure there's a missile launcher here, and a grav cannon there, but really you can't count on that stuff. 

 

++++++++++++++++++

 

Here's what I don't want to do:

 

- Play CAD

- Suit up Captain America (bike/shield eternal/Grav)

- Pair him with more bikes (with as much Grav as Possible)

- Take Tiggy in the background on top of Thunderfires 

 

To me this is too much the old way, and I know it works darn well. I'm just trying to make something competitive that actually uses the doctrines/Glad/tacticals. 

 

Right now I'm thinking the best two Auxiliaries I've used is 1st Co, and Stormwing. The best non-Aux is my beloved LibCon. It makes up for the lack of punch in the army.

 

SO Mr.SyN to get back to your point:

 

 

 

 it lacks proper bite, but I think it's because other than the centurions, you've only got one unit that by itself poses a big threat, which is the Dev cents

 

^ Would you say 1st Co in the form of:

1 squad of hammer/shield (some claw) termies

1 squad of 5 termies w/Cyclone

1 squad of 5 Sternguard /some combimelta + Pod

 

Would alleviate that? 

 

I'm also thinking of taking my traditional cheapo 5 man assault sqaud and going to 7 dudes, with 2 flamers + Eviscerator  (still only 154 points) just to add another CC plausible unit.

 

This doesn't seem to diminish my shooting too much but I have to reel back the Tacticals to 20. (5 ML + 5 ML + 10 Plas/Combi Plas Pod)

 

The Cents are out for a 278 point 4 x Grav Cannon Dev squad in a Pod with fat baby cartman for re-rolls. ( I would put LibCon here with Prescience).

 

Just some thoughts, but as I write this it's looking okay at 1850 but air control will be the big cost obviously. The last list was close, but I agree, no bite.

[SyNidus]

Well Mr Prot, i reckon that's an interesting idea, but why termies? Maybe 1 squad of hammernators and 1 more sternguard pod squad? Those guys will fit right in and provide 3 more threats for the opponent to worry about. The loss of anti-air isn't a big deal but i know losing the mobility of talons would be.

 

Also i've used 7 man assault squads with 2 flamers and vet sgt with an axe, accompanied by shrike. It served the purpose of counter-assault well enough. I think with a chaplain it might do better still.

 

Edit: Btw I've gone ahead and tried a building a similar army list, I'd love to hear your thoughts, and anyone else's as well.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/311839-1850-raven-guard-zoom-n-boom/?p=4149881

[Prot]

Okay, I have kind of been stuck on what to do with this continuing issue in my lists, without trying to break out of the Gladius.

 

I'm going to say perhaps a rethink of the 1st Co as you suggest could be:

 

5 vanilla Sternguard in Pod

5 Melta/Plas Combi Sternguard in Pod

5 Hammer/Shield/Calws Termies for all my CC woes.

 

The Assault Squad is something I'm still strongly considering... 5-7 of them with the Chaplain because it allows the Sarge to take the Axe and actually use it. Plus the simple Chappy with JP just gives me more points to play with outside of poopy Sicarius. 

[minigun762]

What about Vanguard instead of the Assault Terminators?

 

Chaplain will make a bigger impact with a squad that has more attacks and more power weapons

[Prot]

That's a great idea. I wish I had vanguard. Hehe

 

Actually I'm making a CAD as my gladius lists are feeling worse and worse lately. But I do really love this idea

[Ishagu]

Prot, I'm the same as you. I actually ran a demi company and found that, although it performed ok, it wasn't as effective as my usual lists.

 

The full Gladius with free transports is definitely something I want to try, but I don't have enough vehicles to make full use of it.

[Prot]

Yea the Gladius is a lot of fun. And feels like "utra's". But unlike most of the internet that thinks it's the cat's meow, I find it a mid performer at best... until you get to full Battle Co.

 

I was going to take it to a tournament locally but the Battle Co is hit too hard with comp penalties. Ironically my Decurion Necrons is almost perfect. lol