RULES - Primarch and Legion

[Raktra]

Vulkan's under-costed and Mortarion's over-costed. Just a personal opinion.

Denial 3+ to match Mortarion, I'm guessing?

[simison]

Vulkan's under-costed and Mortarion's over-costed. Just a personal opinion.

 

Denial 3+ to match Mortarion, I'm guessing?

 

Mortarion's Deny is 4+

[Demus Ragnok]

Denial 3+ cause his armor is lined with salt, and garlic and melted down lucky horse shoes to keep the witches away.

 

Vulkan is only 425 that's rediculous!

[Raktra]

Yeah, but add in Adamantium Will and it goes to 3+.

... Of course that means here we've got a 2+.

[Demus Ragnok]

Yeah, but add in Adamantium Will and it goes to 3+.

... Of course that means here we've got a 2+.

Grrrr. Forgot about AW. Easy enough fix.

[simison]

I am of the personal opinion that Denials 3+ and better should be reserved for either powerful psykers or pariahs. 

 

I've been studying Niklaas and comparing him with Mortarion, Vulkan, and Perturabo. I'm definitely see a mix of Pert's tech-savy with Vulkan/Mortarion's resilience. As he is, he's definitely going to be one of the more expensive BotL Primarchs. That said, I do like what changes you did make, especially shifting the Toughness over to Wounds. I like Bane of Witches because it's one of the few rules that acknowledge that Daemons are known in our canon. 

 

The issue is that he has most of Pert's tech and Forgebreaker-equivalent, which bumps Pert up to 490 (which would put Niklaas in the 470 range since he doesn't have the Bombardment attack), and still has Vulkan's resilience. 

 

Hmmm, stared some more and realized Nik has no kind of special rule focusing on resilience. He's striking a kind of quasi-balance between Pert & Vulkan. I'd suggest getting rid of the multi-melta and Relentless, and charge him 470 points for entry. That's what I come up with after half an hour of contemplation and study. Or keep the MM & Relentless and boost him to 480ish points. 

 

EDIT: Oh, and I'd definitely prefer if his Deny was a 4+ before Adamantium Will. 

Edited October 31, 2015 by simison

[Demus Ragnok]

Ok you'd guys I edited Niks rules in post # 390. Have a look.

[Raktra]

I'm a fan.

[Slips]

I like him too. Direct and To the Point!

[simison]

Agreed, I especially like his new null matrix.

[Sigismund229]

Given that the old special units of the Crimson Lions(with the exception of the Myrmadons) don't fit with the current version of the Crimson Lions, I'm re writing most of their special units. Currently these are what I have as idea's

 

Rix ???(HQ)

WS BS S T W I A LD SV

6 5 4 4 2 4 2 10 3+/4+

Unit size: 1 Rix

Wargear: Power armour, frag&krak grenades, close combat weapon, bolt pistol, hoplon shield, torc.

Hoplon shield: Confers a 4++ invulnerable save on the model using it.

Torc: Gives the model using it a 5+ deny the witch and means all Crimson Lions within "4 may use this models LD in placeof their own.

Special rules: Ciringite frontem!, Warrior of legend, Legiones Astartes(CL).

Ciringite frontem!: Any unit that has a Rix attached upgrades its toughness by 1.

Warrior of legend: Crimson Lions within "6 of a Rix may always attempt to re group.

Options:

May take:

Melta bombs +10 points

Lightning claws +15 points each

Artificier armour +20 points

Jet bike +30 points

May choose to replace his close combat weapon and/or bolt pistol with:

Falcan blade +5 points

Power weapon +10 points

Volkite serpenta +10 points

Power fist +15 points

Plasma pistol +15 points

Thunder hammer +20 points

Paragon blade +20 points

 

Aishetari ??? points(Elite)

WS BS S T W I A LD SV

4 4 4 4 1 4 1 10 3+/4+

Unit size: 10 Aishetari

Wargear: Power armour, frag&krak grenades, bolter, falcan blade, hoplon shield, specialist ammunition.

Falcan blade: +1S AP4

Special rules: Furious charge, Fury of the legion.

Options:

May take:

Up to 10 more aishetari ?? points

Melta bombs +5 points per model

1 in every 5 may take:

Power weapon +10 points

Volkite caliver +10 points

Melta gun +10 points

Plasma gun +15 points

Power fist +15 points

 

 

Getae ??? points (Fast attack)

WS BS S T W I A LD SV

3 3 4 4 1 4 2 8 3+/6+

Unit size: 10 Getae

Wargear: Power armour, Frag, Krak and Rad grenades, close combat weapon, bolt pistol, breacher shield, jump pack.

Special rules: Furious Charge, Rage, Reckless, Vanguard fighters, Legiones Astartes(CL)

Reckless: Getae always get hit on a 4+ but still get a bonus for having a close combat weapon and bolt pistol.

Vanguard fighters: On the first turn of any close combat, Getae gain +1WS.

Options:

May take:

Up to 10 more getae ?? points

One in every 5 may take:

Volkite serpenta +10 points each

Power weapon for +10 points each

Plasma pistol for +15 points each

Power fist for +15 points each

[Praefectus Invictus]

I think the Getae should be around 160-180 points, and change Reckless to : "Getae always get hit on a 3+, and always count as being equipped with two close combats weapons, for +1 attack. Also are the Getae supposed to be like initiates or neophytes? 

 

The Rix should be a centurion upgrade, for around 60-70 points. Alternatively you could keep him at praetor level and make him ~130 points. The Hoplon shield is quite good and I think should receive some drawbacks, namely that the user should never get the bonus for having 2 close combat weapons.

 

Aishetari are good, I'd put them at about 195-220 points. They are fairly survivable, and have the specialist ammunition (from the seeker squad entry?) and falcan blades, so can pack a punch against light infantry targets.

 

Just my 2 cents

[Grifftofer]

For Rix my assessment puts him at about 80 points not including his special rules. Warrior of Legend doesn't really do anything as all models with the Legiones Astartes rule may always attempt to regroup using their full Ld anyway. You could possibly make him count as a Legion Standard? Then everyone within 6" would get fearless, though his points would need to go up ~20 or so. Ciringite Frontem! is a really quite powerful ability, that I think should probably be his unique warlord trait. Otherwise you'd need to charge at least another 15-20 points just for that as it could be really impressive on certain units.

 

Personally I think that the Aishetari are trying to do too much in one package. They are good melee fighters due to the falcan blades, shields and furious charge, god at range because of bolters, specialist ammo and fury of the legion. Plus they can be upgraded to deal with heavy vehicles and have up to 20 bodies. Realistically they should be a minimum of 275 points base due to their ability to do anything. If you compare them to a full veteran squad, then for +75 points you'd get +1Ld, -1A, Hoplon Shields, Falcan blades, specialist ammo and fury of the legion, along with the option of adding 10 more bodies. Considering that falcan blades are half-way to being power weapons, even that would be a pretty phenomenal deal. I'd also put the additional marines at a minimum of 25 points/model, just because of the amount of stuff they get.

 

Getae I'd also put in the 250 ish point range. Because in spite of the drawbacks they are plain better than breachers and I don't think we should be making things too much more powerful/efficient than the core army list. My reasoning for this is that they are more specialised, making them easier to use. They get all the advantage of the breacher shield for no downside, even if they always get hit on 3+s, they would have anyway most of the time, because they're only WS3. Plus they have rage, furious charge, rad grenades and a jump pack! I know that assault marines are considered under-powered, but there is almost no reason to take them over these guys even if they do start at 250 points.

[Sigismund229]

Ok, so thanks for the feed back. How about these as new profiles for the Aishetari and Getae

 

Aishetari 230 points(Elite)

WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 LD9 SV3+/4+

Wargear: Power armour, frag&krak grenades, hoplon shield, falcan blades.

Unit size: 10 Aishetari

Special rules: Furious charge, Legiones astartes(CL)

Options stay the same with each extra Aishetari being +20 points

 

Getae 220 points(Fast Attack)

WS3 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 LD8 SV3+/6+

Wargear: Power armour, breacher shield, frag&krak grenades, close combat weapon, bolt pistol, jump pack

Unit size: 10 getae

Special rules: Reckless, Vanguard fighters, Counter attack

Reckless: Getae always get hit on 3+ and may never use another LD value in place of their own and may never be joined by an independent character.

Vanguard fighters: Getae may re roll their run rolls. However, they cannot choose which number to use, they must always use the 2nd number.

Options are pretty much the same but include rad grenades for +5 points per model and each extra getae is +15 points.

 

Praefectus, the getae are the neophytes, the youngest Crimson Lions who are like the Space Wolves Blood Claws.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Sigismund229

[Hesh Kadesh]

Hey Sig, I've posted some feedback in your thread ;)

 

That aside, I have some rules for the Drowned;

 

LEGIONES ASTARTES (THE DROWNED)

Many-Limbed Horror; Any unit consisting entirely of models with this special rule gains the Stubborn special rule if outnumbered in an assault by enemies, and do not suffer from make disordered charges when they charge multiple enemy units. If there are other causes of a disordered charge, these take effect as normal. In addition, any enemy units taking pinning tests caused by a model with this special rule must be rerolled if passed. 

Deepkin; All units with this special rule gains the Move Through Cover special rule.

Martial Hubris; In any mission where secondary objectives are being used, and a Drowned army is the primary detachment, if the Drowned suffer more units destroyed than their enemy at the end of the game, then their enemy gains +1 Victory Point.

The Bitter End; In missions which would normally have a random game length, the Drowned players opponents can opt to play to six full turns instead of the roll to end the game being made.

 

Legion Specific Restrictions; Fleshcrafters

Expeditionary Navigator Agents and Apothecarion Detachments may not be taken by a Drowned Legion detachment. Primus Medicae Consuls may be taken, although they lose the Sacred Trust special rule. 

 

The Drowned never really played well with the other boys in the playground, hence the limitations on it being Drowned only units getting the ability to ignore Disordered Charges, and Move Through Cover with Legiones dedicated to holding enemies in place gaining the Stubborn special rule while outnumbered. One unit that feels kind of underrepresented are Legion Recon Squads, and given that I have Move Through Cover anyway, the benefit to such squads taking Scout Armour is that they get Infiltrate, so I still have those reasons to take them, but also now, if necessary, the Recon Snipers/Greenstuff+Filed Mor Deythan (dat Rock) can be used effectively.

 

That said, the main tactic is to charge in, and hold several units in place while reserves come in an hit hard. Utilising Pinning, Graviton, and actual combats to prevent enemies moving. 

 

Martial Hubris; the Legion takes a battering when they discover the Mechanicum Abyssii, and get rinsed badly by the TS/SW, while Bitter End is a double penalty in that they get penalties for losing more units, and now must fight on for another turn. It's not cut and dry, but in a tight game could make the difference. These two rules are lifted from Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors and Alpha Legions. As a result of that battering though, the Legion cannot afford to lose their Apothecaries, and Morro specifically took them from the field of battle in order to focus on his improvement programs alongside Rakarth. The Primus Medicae aren't trusted (hence, no VP's gained in this manner), but reduces the legions resilience - which can be a pain when their units are charging into enemies to tie them down, facing multiple overwatches etc, which can cost a Victory Point.

 

As for Navigators? Wait and see...

 

The legion isn't especially fragile, but it suffers due to forced attrition, and requires a bit of balance between units large enough to hold the enemy in place, and last long enough to get smashed by the legion or their allied assault units.

 

Legion Specific Units

In addition to those found in the Crusade Army List, the Drowned has particular access to three additional unit types; Charonic Seekers (which are an Elites Choice on the Force Organisation chart), Pelagic Monarchs (which are a HQ choice on the Force Organisation chart) and the Forlorn (which are an Elites Choice on the Force Organisation chart). 

 

Okay, so briefly; Charonic Seekers, I'll copy in later; Tartaros Terminators with a Havoc Launcher, Grenade Launcher and Rotor Cannon with the ability to Deep Strike and gain the Seeker Squads marked for death; they can upgrade their weapons to Iliastus Assault Cannons and Cyclones for a truly vile shooting phase, but expensive. Pelagic Monarchs are a Titan Hunting Boarding (upgrade to Storm) Shield equipped elite Jump Pack Honour Guard who can wield their Power Spears like a Lascutter, with the Leader able to take a Vortex Grenade. These guys basically hunt Titans, but again, they're not cheap. Finally, the Forlorn; a Gal Vorbak analogy. Pretty much the same, swapping Rending for IWND and Defensive Grenades when charged, and the option to pick up Heavy Chainswords or Charnabal Sabres, rather than special weapons picking up Navigator Powers.

 

Legion Specific Wargear;

Teleportation Transponder; Any Character wearing Terminator Armour (any variant) with the Legiones Astartes (The Drowned) special rule may purchase the Teleportation Transponder for +15pts. This gives the Character and any unit he is attached to during deployment the Deep Strike special rule.

 

Pelagic Voulge; This weapon was created purely for the Pelagic Monarchs in the Custodes own forges. Each weapon was originally a trident, but the central tine was ritually broken by the chosen Pelagic Monarchs; they would lead the Imperium into the stars, and cast down the symbols of the old gods, of which the three pronged fishing spear was once on ancient Terra. When wielded in two hands, the weapon can be charged, creating a flickering photonic edged plane of midnight blue that can pierce even the adamantium hide of a Titan.

A Pelagic Voulge can be used either one handed or two handed. There are two profiles for Strength and AP when wielded one handed; the first is used only on a turn in which a model charges; the second is used at all other times

 

Pelagic Voulge (One Handed) | Str; +1/As User | AP; 3/4 | Type; Melee, Specialist Weapon

Pelagic Voulge (Two Handed) | Str; 9 | AP; 2 | Type; Melee, Armourbane, Cumbersome, Master-crafted Two-Handed Weapon, Unwieldy

 

Vigil Pattern Storm Shield; The bearer of this shield gains a 3+ Invulnerable Save, but may never claim an additional attack for being armed with two close combat weapons.

 

Legion Relic; 

Rimeshatter (50pts); It is not known from whence this weapon came. That such a weapon of sheer potency was created, it seems unclear as to why their are no records of it being used until after the XVIth legion rose from the "depths" from below the galactic plane. It is very similar in appearance to the copper tinted Pelagic Voulges, but instead appears to be crafted from a lustreless metal. Before his untimely death, the respected remembrancer, astrogeologist and architect Jesefiah sif'Uslu is thought to have recognised it as Fenrisian Iron, but few examples of that material exist following the planets Exterminatus. Jesefiah would not long outlive his revelation, as he was lost to the void following a catastrophic breach in the hull of his transfer barque when travelling to join the Iron Bears.

 

In addition to the below profile, once per battle, at the start of any assault phase (friendly or enemy), Rimeshatter may trigger an icy blast that weakens those nearby, counting as being equipped with a Rad Grenade for that phase only. It can be used either one handed or two handed. There are two profiles for Strength and AP when wielded one handed; the first is used only on a turn in which a model charges; the second is used at all other times. However, any models with the Legiones Astartes (Crimson Lions) or Legiones Astartes (Iron Bears) special rule gain the Preferred Enemy special rule when engaged with the bearer of Rimeshatter and any unit he is attached to.

 

Rimeshatter (One Handed) | Str; +1/As User | AP; 2/3 | Type; Melee, Helfrost, Rending, Specialist Weapon

Rimeshatter (Two Handed) | Str; 10 | AP; 1 | Type; Melee, Armourbane, Cumbersome, Helfrost, Master-crafted, Two-Handed Weapon, Unwieldy

 

Helfrost; When a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds from this weapon, it must pass a seperate Strength Test for each wound suffered or be removed from play. 

 

So, wargear. Terminators Deep Striking, pretty self explanatory. It's the Drowned, capable at operating in any atmosphere, or even none at all, and at assaulting from all angles; not only from front, back, left, right, above and below, but now from within as well. Any Terminator Character can pick it up. In regards to weapons; thought I'd keep it simple. The Pelagic Voulge is a Warfork, or more accuratel, a trident missing its central prong, and the signature weapon of the legion's Pelagic Monarchs. Basically, using this to represent it in model form, with perhaps this as the Relic; any held in two hands using the Transonic Blades from the Ruststalker's kit to represent the blades if held in two hands. It looks powerful, but as it's I1 and WS1 (unless facing Super Heavies - see unit later), and limited to 1 attack, a full unit is hitting only 3-4 times, and that's hoping they're not already dead.

 

In regards to the Iron Bears and Crimson Lions wanting to murder the bearer? Well, I don't think they really appreciated what they think we've done with Russ.

 

Still to come; Rites of War, Updated Unit Rules, Characters. 

[Sigismund229]

YOU DID WHAT WITH RUSS' SWORD??!!(Qeue: Hectarion loses it completely)

 

Ahem(straightens clothes)

 

I like the look of what the drowned are gonna get as special units and relics and look forward to carving a path through them with Aishetari(I've posted a reply on my thread to your feedback btw ;) )

[Sigismund229]

Decided to make rules for Ancient Ærrion, the oldest dreadnought in the whole III legion.

 

Ancient Ærrion, 280 points

WS5 BS4 S7 F13 S12 R12 I5 A5 HP4.

Wargear: Fonrirs bite, Tors judgement, Kucholayns shield, the Bloody banner, extra armour, smoke launchers, searchlight.

 

Fonrirs bite S: user AP:2 rending, shred, murderous strike.

 

Tors judgement S:6 AP3 R:"12 assault 3, blast, gets hot!.

 

Kucholans shield: Gives Ærrion a 3++ invulnerable save.

 

The Bloody banner: All units with legiones astartes(Crimson Lions) within "4 of Ancient Ærrion gain relentless and LD+1.

 

Special rules: Last of the Blood Wolves, Ancient wisdom, Fury of the ancients, legiones astartes(Crimson Lions), Son of Terra.

 

Last of the Blood Wolves: Ancient Ærrion may never be in the same army as Hectarion.

 

Ancient Wisdom: Crimson Lions units retreating within "6 of Ancient Ærrion rally automatically.

 

Fury of the Ancients: When charging, instead of gaining +1 attacks, Ancient Ærrion gains +D3 attacks and in every subsequent round of combat gains a number of attacks equal to the number of models he killed during the last assault phase.

 

Son of Terra: If Ancient Ærrion is in your army, Asthetairoi and Veterans become Troops choices.

 

And I was reading Julius Caesars Gallic war when I thought that it might be cool if the Crimson Lions have a horn they can equip their guys with(like a celtic bucina).

Behona +20 points. May be equipped to any Crimson Lion who has not already been upgraded. All Crimson Lions in the same squad as the equipped model gain +1LD, Fear and Relentless.

 

Same questions as usual. What rules need to be toned down, do I need to bump up their points cost.

[Slips]

Made a comment on him and the Horn in the CL Section.

[simison]

[inspired by Demus' last piece.]

 

Alexandros the Warmaster                                                    500 points

Alexandros Darshan VonSalim, The Voice of Terra, Shield-Lord of the Halcyon Wardens

 

[Fluff]

                       

                                     WS     BS     S      T     W      I      A     LD     Sv

Alexandros                      7        5      6      6     6       6      5     10      2+

 

Unit Composition

• 1 (Unique)

Unit Type

• Infantry (Character)

 

Wargear

• The Lorica Praeses
• The Aegis
• Spear of Terra
• Ultimatum
• Frag grenades

Special Rules

• Primarch (Independent Character, Eternal Warrior, Fear, Adamantium Will, Fleet, Fearless, It Will Not Die, Master of the Legion)
• Sire of the Halcyon Wardens
• Psyker Level 4
• Foresight
• [An Eye for Defense]
• Very Bulky

Special Rules

 

Sire of the Halcyon Wardens

Whether protecting an Imperium world from attack or exterminating a hostile xeno race, the Lord of the Wardens always directs the battle with special attention to minimizing his casualties, be they Space Marine, Imperial Army, or Mechanicum. As such, he places himself in the most dangerous zone of the battlefield leading his Myrmidon to protect his lines.

 

All units in both primary and allied detachments may use Alexandros' leadership value in lieu of their own for Morale and Pinning tests if Alexandros is in play. Additionally, Alexandros is able to watch over the units closest to them and forewarn them of danger, granting a 6+ Invulnerable save or a +1 to an existing Invulnerable save that can't improve beyond a 3+ save to all units within 12 inches of Alexandros with the exception of any Model with the Pariah special rule. 

 

Upon his ascension to the mantle of Warmaster, Alexandros carries an authority second only to the Emperor. Veteran Tactical Squads may be taken as Troop choices in an army if Alexandros is the Warlord. 

 

Foresight

Before the enemy commander knows that there will be a battle, the Seer already knows where and when it will be. As such, Alexandros may choose two Warlord traits from the Strategic table.

 

[An Eye for Defense]

Alexandros is a master of the defensive. But where some might see timidity in defense, Alexandros excles in using his gift offensively. His superlative knowledge of the defensive arts allows him to pinpoint weakness in the posture and combat style of his foes.

 

While fighting in a challenge and activating in every subsequent phase of combat, Alexandros forces opponents to re-roll successful invulnerable saves.

 

Psyker 

Alexandros always knows the Precognition and Warp Blast psychic power. He may also generate two more powers from the Divination and Telepathy disciplines.

 

Warp Blast - Warp Charge 1

While the focusing crystals within the armour serve to enhance Alexandros' range, they can be re-purposed to serve as a conduit for raw warp energy, which Alexandros channels into a sphere of destruction surrounding him. 

 

Warp Blast is a nova power with the following profile:

 

                       R     S      AP     Type  

Warp Blast        9''    5       4       Pining

 

Lorica Praeses

[Fluff]

 

This armor provides a 2+ armor save, adds +1 to Perils of the Warp chart, and adds an additional 6 inches to the range of any of the powers he has generated. Additionally, the Lorica Praeses grants Alexandros the Warp Blast power, which is unaffected by the range increase.

 

 

The Aegis

With mirroring convictions to protect humanity, Alexandros and Daer'dd would prove to be fast friends and learned a great deal from each other. After their first campaign together, Daer'dd gave his 'little brother' one of the finest plasma blasters in existence. Not only did he accepted this gift, Alexandros asked that Daer'dd guide him in creating his own gift. Daer'dd assented and the Aegis was the result. The shield combined a power shield and grav generator to protect its owner from harm.

 

The shield combined a power shield and grav generator to protect its owner from harm. The Aegis provides a 4+ Invulnerable Save and every enemy model in close combat with Alexandros and his unit have their attacks reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1. Due to its size, Alexandros may never claim an additional attack from being armed with two close combat weapons.

 

Spear of Terra

[Fluff]

 

                        Range      S          AP                        Type

Spear of Terra       -         +2/+1     1              Melee, Force, Lance, Master-Crafted

 

Ultimatum

To celebrate their new brotherhood, Daer'dd, the master smith, crafted this elegant weapon for Alexandros' use. This plasma blaster contains an expertly balanced power system, preventing any kind of overheating and does not have the Gets Hot! special rule.

Edited January 27, 2016 by simison

[Nomus Sardauk]

I thought Alexandros's Plasma Blaster called the Power of the Stars? Or was that just a symbolic title Daer'dd used to describe it before he gifted it?

[simison]

That was the name of the short story, that's all.

[Athrawes]

Simpson, I like the look of his warmaster rules, but I still feel like Alex needs a tool to allow him to power-check other primarch level combatants. Earlier in this thread is mentioned a special rule I titled "an eye for defense" but you can name it whatever you like. Basically it forces successful enemy invulnerable saves to be rerolled in a challenge.

 

It should level the playing field for him against the harder hitting primarchs without making Alex into a beat stick. Rather, he is a guy who has mastered defenses so well, he can pick out any weakness in an opponents guard and exploit it.

[Raktra]

We had that on Raktra for a bit and it was insanely powerful, though admittedly the higher S might've made it moreso. Could maybe have some kind of super-rending where a 5/6+ ignores invulnerables? Also as Warmaster, W6. I get that he's the wee little one, but he IS 500+.

 

Other than that, I like his rules.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Every wound counts a limb and at last the hearts.

 

I see this epic battle before me

 

Otherwise I like this rule but how about impriving his defense so that he can reroll his own inv saves maybe with a malus of -1? Would imho reflect more his reading of enemy attacks.

 

Or maybe every 6 the warmaster throws as save throw 2 attacks are blocked or a wounding is hinderes

Edited December 30, 2015 by MikhalLeNoir

[Chief Captain Redd]

I like the rules overall. I agree that I think he needs a Guillmen like mechanic to allow him to gain tactical acumen against individual opponents in battle. I mean I know we've briefly mentioned Daer'dd basically being his strong arm in fluff but he is The Warmaster.

That being said I also think he should have one more wound and one more to his Int. You could attribute the wound to his Armour, and Alexandros also appeared to me as a rather agile looking fellow so TDA or not he'd still quick.

And for the Spear of Terra I thought it was.

STR AP RULES

+2 1* Melee, Force, Master Crafted, Lance

 

I think those changes help make Alexandros THE Warmaster, a challange for any of his kin while still being a tactical beast. Fully worth the 500+ points. He's more comparable to Horus like this.

 

(* it's Spear of Freaking Terra after all lol)