RULES - Primarch and Legion

[MikhalLeNoir]

Hmm second that except for the agility. If he wears tda he is not that quick anymore even with a super duper armor. TDA increases protection but shrinks your movement. All comes at a price

 

I like the rules overall. I agree that I think he needs a Guillmen like mechanic to allow him to gain tactical acumen against individual opponents in battle. I mean I know we've briefly mentioned Daer'dd basically being his strong arm in fluff but he is The Warmaster.

That being said I also think he should have one more wound and one more to his Int. You could attribute the wound to his Armour, and Alexandros also appeared to me as a rather agile looking fellow so TDA or not he'd still quick.

And for the Spear of Terra I thought it was.

STR AP RULES

+2 1* Melee, Force, Master Crafted, Lance

I think those changes help make Alexandros THE Warmaster, a challange for any of his kin while still being a tactical beast. Fully worth the 500+ points. He's more comparable to Horus like this.

(* it's Spear of Freaking Terra after all lol)

[Raktra]

He is a Primarch though, and if Abaddon can manage it, Alex should be able to.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Now i see Alex jumping and hopping around....thx Immmooootaaaaaan

[simison]

Okay, next time I set up a post for future work, I'm going to make sure I post a sign that says 'Have not started work on this yet'. The Warmaster profile was just a placeholder and to encourage me to start on it sooner rather than later. Right now, it's just Canon Alex with some of the names changed, I hadn't actually started upgrading him yet. After all, the Spear of Terra already has a full profile somewhere on this board, and I remembered Athrawes' suggestion and was going to incorporate it. I just wasn't ready yet to do the hard work yesterday.

 

I am somewhere between vexed and amused over the sheer amount of responses there were for a skeleton, prep profile.

[Hesh Kadesh]

What about giving him the ability to make an out of sequence deployment and shooting attack like the those Necron Snipers.

[simison]

Interesting rules, Hesh, but I don't think they fit. 

 

Okay, I've revised the post so it shows the actual beta draft of Alex the Warmaster rules. Like others, I'm aiming high first and then will revise down if needed. So, what did I add?

 

• Added the proper rules for the Spear of Terra. 
• Added Athrawes' Eye for Defense rule
• Replaced 'Bulky' with the 'Very Bulky' rule and added a Wound to represent Alex's new size. Didn't reduce initiative since Horus and Abaddon don't take an Initiative penalty when compared to baselines. 
• Added the Lorica's range modifier, not sure if the rule is worded correctly. Added the Warp Blast power. This is something I've talked with Demus about, I wanted to add an anti-horde power that's built into the Lorica suit. I'm open to reducing its power if necessary.
• Finally, I updated the Sires rule to give Alex Troop choice Vet Tacticals to represent his Warmaster authority. No idea if that's game breaking or not, it just seemed appropriately fluffy.

 

Have at it.

Edited December 30, 2015 by simison

[MikhalLeNoir]

Well he is the warmaster, but the combination if eye of defense AND the spear of terra seems far too powerful (Raktra already pointed out earlier)

 

Vet tacticals hmm. That could be indeed a game breaker but must be tested on the board.

[Demus Ragnok]

Vet tacticals hmm. That could be indeed a game breaker but must be tested on the board.

Horus has that ability. It's not game breaking.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Oh damn oversaw that. Well then this point is cleared. What about the other?

[Chief Captain Redd]

I think it's pretty perfect honestly. He's the Warmaster, a game changer above all else save for The Big E and Icarion ascended, so fitting I think.

[AlphariusOmegon108]

With the combo of all those rules, especially the CC weaponry combined with the rules, should make him around 550~600 pts, he is rather very strong.

[Chief Captain Redd]

Well absolutely, but like we were talking about a month or two ago cannon Primarchs are undercosted. So I still see no issue with it at this point even if he was a flat 500pts.

 

On a wider scale I think it wouldn't hurt if we were a bit more Liberal with our Primarch rules/points to show they're Demigod's of war. Men whom could change the tide of battle on their own.

[Slips]

I mean, I pretty much went off the damn rails with Pionus v.2.0 but I still feel that Pionus v.1.0 - Fleshbag Edition is still pretty dang potent for his points.

 

We still have to keep a semblance of restraint :p

[MikhalLeNoir]

We have demigods of war, but shouldn't stretch it too far. Or else we have suddenly horus heresy Z.

[Chief Captain Redd]

No that's absolutely true. And I just meant in regards to 30k standards. Like I'm really happy with Daer'dd's rules, physically strongest Primarch, but doesn't hit as hard as some, tough as hell, but not nearly Mortarion or Vulkan tough. And has the potential to turn into a combat monster, but doesn't start off hitting like Angron.

And for all that he's the most costly "base" Primarch.

 

And where Warmaster Alexandros is I feel he's at a proper point, wargear made by the two finest smiths in existence, one of the most potent psykers, and a tactical mastermind. Sounds like The Emperor's right hand to me.

 

That's all I really meant.

[Raktra]

The thing that worries me with Alex is the combo of the opponent having to re-roll saves mixed in with Precognition probably always being up. That :cuss's scary, man. Got no suggestions for alternatives, but still, makes my butt clench.

[Hesh Kadesh]

One thing to point out, is that Alexandros' +1 to Invuln currently stacks with himself. A simple "(except Alexandros)" added in. Is it also meant to affect non Halcyon Wardens and vehicles too? Is it meant to be "In addition, any model with the Legiones Astartes (Halcyon Wardens) special rule improves their Invulnerable save by one (or gain a 6+ Invulnerable Save if they lack one) while within 12" of Alexandros". The problem with the latter rewording is that it only affects models, rather than units, while if it's changed to affect units, there is an unclear result when a unit has a different Legiones Astartes character added to it, and if it was worded to affect units containing one or more HW's within, then while that's clear, would that mean that any Sworn Brothers would gain the +1 to invulnerables, which could be strange given potential alliances with Imperial Army or even Pariah legions. 

 

The Lorica as well granting an additional power - is this in addition to the total listed under the Psyker entry? Honestly, I'd just remove this text from the Lorica regarding the extra power, it just confuses things, and include it as part of one rule under psyker. Might be worth clarifying as well that he has the Warp Blast power. And does the Lorica improve the Warp Blast to 15" for a 30" Nova?

 

How does the Ld usage pass over to armies which may not share rules? I suppose the clue is in the name, but in the instance of the "By the order of the Emperor/Warmaster" (side note, we may need to rename this for the setting). 

 

In regards to damage output, he's powerful. Assuming he'll be fighting a challenge with a Primarch and will likely have Precognition up , he's putting out 5-6 WS7 S7 AP1 Attacks at I6, rerolling misses, failed wounds, and forcing passed Invulnerable saves to be rerolled. Against Morro, that's -D3 attacks (so lets say A has the charge, that's 4 attacks average, 3 hits. With 55% chance to cause a wound, that's only a single wound caused; because lets face it, a 5+ Invulnerable forced to reroll success is not something that's really going to be passed. With his ability to IWND for each missing wound, he can likely tank for some time - perhaps even getting to a stage where at the 4-5 wounds remaining stage for him Alexandros would need to roll above average to hurt him. However, Morro is a T8 W8 pseudo monster with fast regen and the ability to grapple. Other less gribbly Primarchs who aren't so tough might have a less easy time of it.

 

Having said that, he can be shut down if psykers are present (I'm assuming that come the Siege, there will be some Daemon allies knocking about), which might help prevent Precog going off.

 

For power selection; 3(4?) from Divination and Telepathy; Prescience for rerolls as usual (meh), Foreboding for Counter Attack and his BS5 overwatch with his Blaster, Forewarning to give that one unit a 3+ Invulnerable Save in conjunction with his Special rule, Perfect Timing granting Ignores Cover - not sure on what plan of a Bodyguard he may have, but a unit with plasma and ignores cover could be rather brutal. Malediction for rending is always nice if you can get it. Scriers Gaze; Reserves and Acute Senses rerolls could be of some use if built that way. What are the HW's tactics/unique units?

 

Telepathy; alarm bells - Psyker 4 with Shrouding, and Invisibility? Sure, he has to give up Prescience, but that's a worthy trade off. If giving him access to Telepathy, then at least make him roll. Giving free Invis without roll is rather disgustingly good. I'd have said Scriers Gaze, except see below. If I was to take him, I'd go for Forewarning, Invisibility, and Shrouding/Misfortune (depending on what unit he was being run with). Shrouding if being allied with a Lightning Bearers force, because Terminators with a 2+ Cover Jink move while running forwards is hilarious.

 

Strategic Warlord Traits - Infiltrate for self and 3 units, +1 to Seize and reroll reserves. Like there are any other real options? Maybe -1 to reserves facing a DS army. 

 

So;

 

Ranged Offense; 18"(30"?) Bubble S5 AP4 Pinning Nova, 2 18" BS5 S7 AP2 shots. Potential 3 Pin tests before the game starts, grants ignores cover to unit, choose enemy to take Rending hits on one unit regardless of source, 24" BS5 Ld Test on a 3d6 take excess in wounds, no Armour/Cover, Hallucination, force Morale Check at -1Ld, force enemy to take Ld test when making most actions (which stacks with -1 ld from Terrify if necessary).

 

Melee Ability, Prescience likely up; 5 attacks, 6 on the charge. S7 AP1, with invulnerable saves rerolled in a challenge, at WS7 and I6. Invisibility as one of his powers known means that he's only getting hit on 6's. 2+/4++(or is it 3++?) rerolling failed saves with 6 T6 wounds and IWND. When up against multiwounds, can use Force to get ID attacks. Chance to Rend if necessary.

 

Utility; Feels like it's much to list due to varied power and warlord trait choices. Can give his unit a 3++ Save, Shrouded, and Invisibility, as well as Move Through Cover (ruins/forest if necessary), or Infiltrate self and 3 units, with rerolling failed Reserves, and +1 to Seize rolls. Alternatively, powers allow him to reroll reserves/outflank or auto regroup+fearless on a unit if that needs to be a thing where his Ld10 won't solve things.

 

Damage wise, the rerolling invulnerable is kind of what makes him dangerous, otherwise, damagewise he'd be pretty mediocre (think Mortarion). The [Eye for Defense] rule is what is adding to his already rather considerable power outside of that. I'd probably put him at nearer 530, given that rule, although that's pure guess work, and rather to discourage him from being taken in lists of 2K (where he would be seriously broken even without a bodyguard) and to bump him up to the next points bracket of 2250/2.4-2.5k.

[AlphariusOmegon108]

I would put him more to 550 pts, and making a restriction he can only be taken in 3k pts games, he simply smashes the sub-par and weaker primarchs (Alexos and a few others would barely stand a chance)

[simison]

Now to start replying...

 

Raktra, agreed that the Eye rule combined with Precognition is a potent cocktail. 

 

Hesh...

 

1. Alex's +1 Invul is not supposed to apply to himself, only to others. The idea is that it's him keeping one eye out for the warriors around them and protecting them from harm by giving them two-second warnings from the future. And it's meant to apply to all friendly units, not just HW units.(Though the pariah legions introduce a plot hole there, which could be fixing by adding a Pariah exception along with an Alex exception.

 

2. Moving the Warp Blast to the Psyker entry is a good fix. No, it's not supposed to be affected by the Lorica's range enhancer. 

 

3. Alex's LD buff is supposed to apply to anyone and everyone that fights on his side. 

 

4. Just 3 discipline rolls, since Precog takes up the fourth slot. And he does have to roll, he's not allowed to choose his powers like Lorgar Ascended does. 

 

5. Infiltrate Alex? It never occurred to me to do that.

 

 

 

Alright, it's time to start revising down. First, I'm going to bring out my Primarch calculator to give me a ballpark idea of where he is points-wise.

 

+1 Wound = 5 points. 

 

435 points

 

Replace Bulky with Very Bulky = -5 points

 

430 points

 

Sire upgrade with tactical vets = 10 points

 

440 points

 

Eye of Defense rule = 30 points 

 

470 points

 

Lorica Praeses replacing the Armour of Auspice. The Warp Blast power is essentially a bigger Whirlwind Incendiary blast. Although the whirlwind weapon system doesn't come with a point number, I subtracted the whirlwind from a rhino and came up with 20 points. Now the whirlwind comes with two different firing profiles, Barrage, Ordnance, Ignores Cover, and a range limit, while Warp Blast has additional size and Pinning, along with the handicap of being a Warp power which can be reduced to a dud by fickle dice and come with a chance of hurting the firer. In the end, because of the myriad differences, I opted to price Warp Blast at 20 points. 

 

The other major difference is the trade for range Denial for increased casting range. It's... odd. The Auspice acts like a master psychic hood with a Denial range of 24', but it has no bearing on any enemy blessings. The Lorica's casting bonus affects most powers, but does nothing for powers which only target the psyker himself. However, the Denial is only effective when the enemy army has psykers, while the casting is always effective. Adding 10 points for it.

 

20 + 10 = 30 points

 

500 points

 

Finally, the Spear of Terra replacing Xiphos. To begin with, STR bonus comes out as 10 points, with another 5 points for the -1 AP. Another 5 points for Master-Crafted. Lance and Rending uneasily equal each other, with Rending granting an edge to both vehicles and organics, but Lance doesn't rely on rolling a 6 & has a stronger effect on vehicles. So, even steven.

 

10 + 5 +5 = 20 points

 

520 points

 

Thus, by my own count, Alex is passed the 500 mark, where I don't want him.

 

Solutions:

 

1. Fix 'Sire' rule's wording to account for the two exceptions.

 

2. Move Warp Blast over to the Psyker entry, ensured it's not affected by Lorica's casting range rule or simply reduce the Blast's range to compensate. 

 

3. It seems obvious to rein in Alex's power, Eye of Defense needs to be tweaked or replaced. It's already limited to challenges, but perhaps limit it to a one-use power or delay its effect, such as having it only activate after the first round of dueling.

[Raktra]

Why not have him affect himself? Having a 3++ on the Warmaster would make a lot of sense after all.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Perhaps similar to Maru Skara, you nominate a turn before the battle begins after deployment and keep it hidden. At the start of that specified turn, before any other actions, flip the paper, and until the start of Alex's next turn, any melee attacks by him may be force enemy invulnerable saves to be rerolled.

 

Plays a little bit into the fun divination side of the game for Alex as the player has to guess when he will need it.

 

In regards to range of the Nova, the wording on the Lorica could say that the Warp Blast already includes the bonus.

 

As an idea for a relic for your legion you could perhaps include a librarian only version which includes the warp blast with 6" range rather than 9"?

[simison]

Why not have him affect himself? Having a 3++ on the Warmaster would make a lot of sense after all.

 

It's a holdover from the old days, where there was near-unanimous agreement that a 3++ Alex was too powerful. Of course, that was with canon Alex.

[Raktra]

It's too powerful with Precognition, admittedly. But if that were to change, why the flying pants not. Isn't Morrow T8 or something? You can dance in your fancy armour.

[MikhalLeNoir]

But Morro is infuaed witg chaos and rakarth added a few limbs etc.

[simison]

So, where were people on the 3++ Alex, I'm getting mixed messages?

 

Hesh, I like the relic idea but it'll go at the end of the line.