My next crazy idea...DA "Rondel" dagger + halberd rules

[depthcharge12]

So after another knight documentary binge, I was looking into the various weapons knights would carry on their person to dispatch other heavily armored opponents. You can see where this is going considering our heresy universe has heavily armored soldiers trained in brutal close combat affairs. I came up with two particular weapons that were uniquely suited to defeat or ignore armor:

 

Rondel Dagger -

This weapon is as much stiletto as a railway spike. It can be shoved into armor gaps or even vulnerable areas on the armor to wreck irreparable damage on a foe. Used when another heavily armored opponent is staggered, it delivers a coup de grace to finish them off. Oddly enough, this weapon is easily produced, but only used as an accompanying weapon.

 

Rules: Any character or independent character may purchase one for +10 points

This weapon gives the murderous strike special rule to any of the character's close combat attacks.

 

 

Halberd -

A weapon containing an axe, hammer, and a spike on either end, this weapon is created to kill what a long sword cannot. Not made common to most fighters and requiring a lot of finesse and training, this weapon was extremely lethal to heavily armored opponents. Able to deliver blunt trauma via hammer, brutal puncture wounds by spike, and cleaving blows by axe head. This weapon requires the use of two hands, but allows for increased leverage and reach, unimpeding the user from fast strikes.

 

Rules: Any independent character able to take a power axe may purchase a halberd for +20 points

S +2 AP 2 Melee, Two handed

 

 

I know this adds some lethality to cc for heresy Dark Angels, but it fits inline with the knight theme and the penchant for Dark Angels champions to engage in duels and call out for challenges. In a game outweighed by shooting, I think there needs to be some heavy hitters in close combat if they can make it across the board ;)

 

Thoughts?

[SkimaskMohawk]

10 points is far too cheap for murderous strike, especially since it just gives the rule by possessing the dagger and not having to wield it

[Hrolf the Cunning]

I like the idea of having some varied weapons options. I think that the halberd needs to be more than 20 points though, lots of benefits for limited drawbacks.

[Quixus]

Make the Halberd really two-handed, not just having the two-handed rule. The rule still allows the use of storm/combat shields and ranged weapons.

[jeremy1391]

For the halberd Id give it +1 initiative on the first round of combat, second round on -1 to initiative.

 

Reason being is once you are stuck in you won't have the room necessary to maneuver that big polearm around.

[Slips]

For the halberd Id give it +1 initiative on the first round of combat, second round on -1 to initiative.

 

Reason being is once you are stuck in you won't have the room necessary to maneuver that big polearm around.

Id add that you could possibly give it multiple profiles too depending on which weapon head your using.

 

Essentially like its description: A Power Lance, Maul and Axe all in one but very pricey for the flexibility, cant be equipped with a shield, Specialist Weapon/Two-Handed and The above initiative Modifier.

[depthcharge12]

10 points is far too cheap for murderous strike, especially since it just gives the rule by possessing the dagger and not having to wield it

Here's my line of reasoning behind the point cost: why would a praetor take one? He already has a paragon blade which is far superior to any power weapon combination with the dagger. Not to mention it would cost the same (power weapon 15 + dagger 10 = 25 points, same as paragon blade). Another factor is how easy these things could be distributed and used...it's not rocket science to make a four sided spike with a sharp, tapered end :)

 

This weapon is mainly to give other characters a chance to be deadlier in challenges where they'd mostly be lackluster (looking at you champion consul).

 

 

I like the idea of having some varied weapons options. I think that the halberd needs to be more than 20 points though, lots of benefits for limited drawbacks.

Again, my thoughts were, why would someone take this weapon over a paragon blade if as a praetor? It gets +1 strength over a paragon blade, but doesn't get murderous strike. However you could take a rondel dagger with it....;) but it does make the weapons combo 5 points more than a paragon blade, which I can feel 5 points justifies an additional strength point.

 

This weapon is mostly directed towards the consuls though, to make them better at cc and give more incentive for use. I'll address another drawback below in just a second.

 

 

Make the Halberd really two-handed, not just having the two-handed rule. The rule still allows the use of storm/combat shields and ranged weapons.

I put the two handed rule in there as I thought that would preclude taking other things like shields and such. However, when used in real combat, Knights did use it in combination with buckler shields (combat shields essentially) and daggers.

 

I think I'd still allow them to use a pistol, but I may add the clause: "This weapon may not be taken if the independent character is using a bike or jetbike as it requires both hands to use."

 

 

For the halberd Id give it +1 initiative on the first round of combat, second round on -1 to initiative.

Reason being is once you are stuck in you won't have the room necessary to maneuver that big polearm around.

That may also need consideration...but then I would definitely bump the points cost up :)

[Leif Bearclaw]

10 points is far too cheap for murderous strike, especially since it just gives the rule by possessing the dagger and not having to wield it

Here's my line of reasoning behind the point cost: why would a praetor take one? He already has a paragon blade which is far superior to any power weapon combination with the dagger. Not to mention it would cost the same (power weapon 15 + dagger 10 = 25 points, same as paragon blade). Another factor is how easy these things could be distributed and used...it's not rocket science to make a four sided spike with a sharp, tapered end

A Marine wouldn't take one. Because there's little need for a weapon like a Rondel in the 40k setting. They arose irl from plate armour being impervious to slashing weaponry, stabbing into weak points in the armour, where plate wasn't, often after the opponent had been tripped. This is not how Marines fight in 30/40k. As good as PA is, it is actually inferior in context to late medieval plate. Marines can crack other Marine's armour with punches, plus the fact that the blades used in 30k/40k can cut through ceramite. While the Rondel design would certainly not be out of place amongst the Legions, it doesn't deserve any special rules, as it the same thing that a chainblade or mono-edged combat blade/gladius is capable of within the context of the 30/40k setting.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The Saber and and dagger combo for 15 points would be really efficient on a consul; they'd become sevetar esq where you're hunting for that one 6 to wound.

 

 

[Hesh Kadesh]

10 points is far too cheap for murderous strike, especially since it just gives the rule by possessing the dagger and not having to wield it

Here's my line of reasoning behind the point cost: why would a praetor take one? He already has a paragon blade which is far superior to any power weapon combination with the dagger. Not to mention it would cost the same (power weapon 15 + dagger 10 = 25 points, same as paragon blade). Another factor is how easy these things could be distributed and used...it's not rocket science to make a four sided spike with a sharp, tapered end

A Marine wouldn't take one. Because there's little need for a weapon like a Rondel in the 40k setting. They arose irl from plate armour being impervious to slashing weaponry, stabbing into weak points in the armour, where plate wasn't, often after the opponent had been tripped. This is not how Marines fight in 30/40k. As good as PA is, it is actually inferior in context to late medieval plate. Marines can crack other Marine's armour with punches, plus the fact that the blades used in 30k/40k can cut through ceramite. While the Rondel design would certainly not be out of place amongst the Legions, it doesn't deserve any special rules, as it the same thing that a chainblade or mono-edged combat blade/gladius is capable of within the context of the 30/40k setting.

It's frequently called that the eye slits and material at the joints are weaker than the plate. Big dangerous power axe cuts through the enemies guard, chink goes the weapon into the exposed neck. As a games design, if it's something that won't be taken because there are better options, why make it at all?

As to the halberd, an at initiative S6 AP2 weapon is pretty powerful for melee. Nobody really takes the Paragon Blade for the Murderous Strike although it is nice if it goes off on cue, but because it's at initiative AP2. S6 is the magic point at which Instant Death triggers on a Rad-nade'd model as well. If it was Unwieldy, with the exception of the turn in which a model is charged, that it keeps it simple.

[Tychii]

For context a chain glaive is +1 str rending two handed 10 points.

 

I don't see why everyone wouldn't take one of those on a Sargent. It's a -2 str power fist that strikes at initiative.

The points costs and item availability shod not be taken into account witha vs the preator but vs Sargents.

If you make it hq only then you gain more wiggle room with the power curve. If you are making somthing for hq's then make it with them in mind