N1SB Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Awhile back, I read about the Hammer of Caliban "trick" of "tanking tanks", taking advantage of how Vehicle Squadron rules work to use the Land Raider to take all the hits for the lighter vehicles riding with it by simply positioning it closer to the enemy. The usage that interested me the most was a Land Raider Crusader to accompany 3 Vindicators (to get the Monster/Tank Hunter rules now on top of their Squadron rule). Very enticing, yet also very expensive, at nearly 700 points. On paper, I think it can be cost-justified, as long as you also use the Land Raider Crusader to transport something worthwhile, otherwise that's an expensive "shield". Also, IMHO, it seems like one of those formations you have to build around, like how IMHO the Skyhammer is something you build around rather than just add on. However, how is it in practice please, for those of you that have seen it on the battlefield? Edit - a major part of this question is whether that trick of using the Land Raider to take hits, with the Techmarine inside repairing it, is worth it and actually works consistently in practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aura_enchanted Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 this isnt so much a trick as just good tanking, its armor angling and using the cover of a heavy tank to block for the lighter ones, its an okay concept but its much easier to execute with tanks with more graunt that can all operate on the same wavelength and range like 36" guns with 36"s and 48"s with 48"s. if your not doing it like that someones always going to be unable to shoot at the target. the land raider needs to be at least 12" forward for that to not apply to him but then it becomes tricky finding a weapon he can shoot that they can shoot at too. a more fascinating concept is granting this unit buffs like from say an HQ command tank. since its a squadron when one gets hit n run they all get it. thats 5 tl lascannons with hit n run im not certains theres something more terrifying than that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Why would they need Hit & Run? They can't be locked in combat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 On paper, I think it can be cost-justified, as long as you also use the Land Raider Crusader to transport something worthwhile, otherwise that's an expensive "shield". Also, IMHO, it seems like one of those formations you have to build around, like how IMHO the Skyhammer is something you build around rather than just add on. I don't think using the LRC to transport a worthwhile unit is a good think to make the squadront cost-justified. Here's my reasonning about that If you use the transport capacity it means that you get close from the enemy to disembark and charge If you get close it means you get closer from his antitank weapons and that you'll open his arc of fire If you do so it means that either he can charge a vindicator or get the right angle to shoot at the vindies flanks first rather than being obliged to resolve the shoot against the LR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 You want to use a standard Land Raider, as it has monster/tank hunter weaponry (the other two do not). As to what to transport, just some servitors with servo arms to go with the Techmarine to protect the squadron from any close cobmat threats that get too close, and to repair the Land Raider from the inside in case it does takes hull point/weapon damage. I would never use Whirlwinds in this formation, only Predators/Vindicators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 At first I really disliked this formation. I thought why would I want to take a Land Raider and park it up with 3 Predators on my back line, seems like a hefty premium to get some Preds into your Lion's Blade. But after having used it a few times with a 'God Hammer' and 3 Las'Preds I can attest to this formation completely scaring the pants off your opponent. Having 5 TL lascannons & 6 more lascannons with tank hunters shielded by AV14 in cover is a daunting thing to come up against considering how many people roll super heavies these days. My most common opponent often fields a Stompa, is this squad does rather well against it. I typically run the Techmarine over to the lascannon toting Devastator Squad on my first turn to hand out even more tank hunter goodness. Not to mention he buffs the cover my Devs are hiding in and his servo arm is quite troublesome for anyone contemplating charging my Devs. Enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Hmmm...technical question: if you have cover that that enormous land raider can get obscuration from, does the techmarine's cover-buffing ability improve the obscuration, or just improve the cover save of units hunkering in the cover? What would be stupid nasty (and stupid expensive) would be Azrael with 9 man melee squad in the land raider...4++ to the land raider and a stout assault deterrent making those lascannons of doom nigh-unkillable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 I don't think that the benefit of a better cover save on terrain affects the LR because you get the same obscured cover save to a tank no matter the type of cover providing it. It's a value fixed on how much of the tank is exposed not where the tank is taking the shelter from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 That's kind of what I was thinking...but I have seen people give 4++ obscuration when the vehicle is sheltering behind, or in, ruins, which would suggest that upgraded ruins would give the vehicle 3++, and therefore generic obscuring cover would be upgraded to 4++...but I think those people were house-ruling, misreading the rule for ruins, or something. My DA don't use enough vehicles for this to have come up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidicul Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Why not run a darkshroud behind the land raider to give it shrouded while it's tanking shots? That would most likely be highly annoying to your opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garath Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 ...Techmarine bolsters a ruin for a 3+ , add darkshroud for 2+ cover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 I think for what this formation costs it's totally justified to use whatever trick it can to tank (pun!) those shots. I think the best way to troll would be to stick the Darkshroud in front of the LR to give it a 4+ (who needs Ezekiel or a PFG!). There are very few weapons in the game that have ignores cover and are Anti-Vehicle. At the very least you gave it a 2+ re-rollable moving cover. 500+ points later.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 You may also want to consider crusader plus dakka preds in larger games where you have enough points to get antitank from somewhere else. That would be a mean set of guns bearing down on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 We've been playing as you use the cover save of the blocking terrain, which in this case of hiding behind a Bolstered ruin would be improved. The rule book outlines the rules for vehicles being in cover as being different to infantry, naming they need to 25% obscured and not just parked up in area terrain. It then goes onto say the vehicle using the cover save of he blocking terrain and lists some examples like woods (5+) and ruins (4+). There is a picture of a Rhino hiding behind a ruin also and the caption underneath says the Rhino is in cover and it gets a 4+ cover save. I've a question though: Do the tanks firing 'through' the cover they're hiding behind provide a cover to their target? Our circle can't agree on it. If it was just an infantry squad we'd agree they wouldn't as they're all standing along the windows or whatever of the ruin shooting outside, but the tanks are not hard up against the outside wall and some of the squadron are even a few inches away and not strictly in it but more behind it. What do you guys think? Similar to a unit shooting another unit with both units in the same piece of area terrain, we're not sure out to treat this one either. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 I don't think you confer your own cover save for shooting out of cover, but if you and the target are both in cover, even if it's the same cover, you both get a save. The interesting thing is if you're an inch apart, separated by a linear obstacle like a fence or a wall...now, THAT is a conundrum...if it's not a purpose-built fortification, I'd say you both get cover...but if it's an ADL, for example, only the unit "inside" would get cover...but then again, the pieces of the ADL themselves are not perfectly straight, they clearly have an inside and an outside! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandofAnubis Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Shooting out of cover should not provide your target any benefit, as the shooter you would be setting yourself up to have the needed fire lanes while obscuring most of your unit / body. Now if you are shooting through cover, as in the terrain / cover is between the two units that is a different story and a cover save would be in order on either side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 That's the kind of question that makes me feel missing the good ol' rules of cover and 3" of line of sight from the borders... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandofAnubis Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 That's the kind of question that makes me feel missing the good ol' rules of cover and 3" of line of sight from the borders... Thats true I had forgotten that in the past it was a matter of how deep you were or how far you were into the terrain.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elios Harg Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 One thing of note, not saying that it's good or not, is how librarians work inside a transport. A Libby could use blessings on the land raider while riding inside and they would affect the entire unit (assuming the power affects units and not single models). Just food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Unfortunately, you can't cast blessing inside a vehicle anymore, so that wouldn't work :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraith776 Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 The only powers you can cast while in a vehicle is witchfires, and only when the vehicle has fire points I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 correct! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraith776 Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 I was thinking just now, a unit of 10 scouts with CCWs would be a could counter charge unit to keep in the raider. Relatively cheap and a pretty decent deterrent. Would be pretty good to with a Redeemer + 3x Vindicator combo I think. Maybe chuck in a cheap librarian for some ap3 and support, hope for the rage power or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seethe Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 I like to roll on strategic warlord table. If you are on a board with any number of ruins you can get the stealth and move through cover (ruins) army wide trait. It's pretty awesome for vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberame Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Wouldn't autocannon turrets be more effective than the twin linked lascannon on predators, all you have to do is cast prescience once and all 3 preds have twin linked everything and you have more dakka with monster hunter/tank hunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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