Reasons to join the Warmaster

[apologist]

Let's explore some of the reasons that individuals might choose to follow the Warmaster into rebellion, stay loyal to the Emperor, or strike off on their own path. The Horus Heresy throws up a lot of interesting ideas and questions, and I hope a discussion on them will prove interesting and helpful to people struggling to find an angle that appeals – or simply give a fresh look at the events of Heresy, which might help spark some ideas for stories, scenarios and the rest of the hobby that can get swept aside under the modelling and painting.

 

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Where to start?

Coming to the Horus Heresy as a new player, you will likely see the broad strokes of Traitors and Loyalists. Playing as the Traitors has the appeal of being the 'bad guys', just as playing as a Loyalist implies being the heroic protagonists; but while a black-and-white view has some appeal, it also has the potential of selling the setting short.

 

Part of the appeal of the setting is its potential to be a fairly mature and complex story, with moral and political questions. Who is in the right? Can your characters actions be justified – or can they make a good tragedy?

 

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Army and character

Since this is a huge topic, I'm restricting my thoughts to the Astartes Legions for the moment. I'm also going to focus on individuals. This is because we've got the broad strokes of the Legions; but there are lots of short stories and intriguing hints that show or imply that small groups or individuals went against the wishes of their commanders.

 

So, with this in mind, please picture your own army's warlord – or just a regular marine. What are his motivations? Make a list of their characteristics, trying to keep a neutral moral tone, and this will immediately provide some depth.

 

To give some examples, let's look at the Mournival as they're presented in Horus Rising. A character like Abaddon is eventually presented as a monstrous traitor. Even early on, he's bloodthirsty, competitive and quick to anger. But from his point of view, he's dependable, honourable, and above all, loyal. This loyalty is to Horus, and to Horus alone.

 

On the flipside, we have Loken. Cool-headed, questioning – even uncertain. He loves his Primarch, but his loyalty is to the Imperium he has been helping to create. It might be argued that this loyalty is set even above that he holds to the Emperor. 

 

Compare both with Little Horus. On the face of things, he's perhaps more similar to Loken than Abaddon. A much more cool-blooded character, we're shown he has doubts. He's a thinker. How, then – spoiler warning ;) – can we be expected to believe he'll pick treachery and betrayal over loyalty to the Emperor?

 

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The many faces of loyalty

Few characters think of themselves as traitors. Perturabo, in Angel Exterminatus, even censures his men for referring to the enemy as 'Loyalists', by saying 'What does that make us?'

 

The first question your character needs to ask is: Where does my loyalty lie? In any story, there are as many answers as there are characters. However, for the sake of discussion I'd suggest we look at a few common suggestions for objects of an Astartes' loyalty:

 

1) The Emperor

2) The Imperium

3) The Imperial Truth

4) The Primarch

5) The homeworld

6) The Warmaster

7) Himself.

8) Humanity.

 

There are more objects of loyalty, of course, but these are going to be common to all Astartes at some point. Prior to the Horus Heresy, it's easy to see that these loyalties do not conflict. In fact, it's easy to conflate them. Loyalty to the Emperor is de facto loyalty to the Imperium – isn't it? 

 

However, as time goes on, subtle differences between these become clear. The Emperor is central to the Imperium; but it would continue without him... wouldn't it? Once your character asks that, it's a small step to wondering who would succeed him. 

 

Is the Imperial Truth vital to the Imperium? Your character's cultural upbringing might see a much 'better' way than cold, unfeeling science. Another might see the philosophy as purer than its realisation in the Imperium – that even the Emperor must ultimately stand below Truth.

 

Perhaps your character has stood and fought besides the Emperor or Horus. Does he find his Primarch lacking in comparison? Angron, broken and pitied as he is, clearly inspires fiercer loyalty in some of his men than the cold Emperor – or even the boastful and subtle Warmaster. Others amongst the XII might yearn for the clear leadership of the Emperor, or Horus' superlative and incomparable ability.

 

Example

For a warrior who sees himself as pure, as honourable, as accountable to his comrades above any abstract concepts, the Warmaster surely deserves the loyalty of Lieutenant Shemun of the Vth Legion. After all, has not Horus prosecuted the Great Crusade? The Emperor is as distant and unengaged as all the rest.

 

Example

A clean, bright future for humanity – it was all our dream. The Lion is as cold and distant as ever the Emperor was. Captain Hebrus of the First has always venerated Horus... but personal feelings have no place over blood-ties. Who cares who rules the Imperium, if there is no Imperium to rule?Let's continue Crusading; leading the Company towards the Halo stars... and beyond.

 

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Time moves on

How does your character recover from trauma?

 

Clan-commander Xephus stands aghast: Ferrus is dead! Does he dig in his heels and sacrifice the men under his command – precious friends and comrades all – in the name of an uncaring Emperor, or will he parley? 

 

The answer might seem obvious: loyalty above all – but what about more subtle, more imaginative ideas? Rather than a last stand, perhaps Xephus submits, taking on the turncoat's bitter role in the hope of staying close to strike an avenging blow on the arch-traitor... 

 

...and then he comes to fight alongside Horus, and finds him generous; charismatic. Inspirational; more so than Ferrus ever was. Can Horus really be evil? Isn't that a childish, outdated concept, long left behind by the Imperial Truth?

 

Example

Brother Tulmar of the XVIIIth thinks it's exhilarating to be part of a movement – and now your fears of obsolescence are calmed. You were right to abandon Vulcan; he was weak, a fool. Horus can be the commander he never was – glory can be yours! 

 

Example

Is it tyranny if you genuinely are the best choice? What has he ever done, except demonstrate the judicious use of power? Why does the Primarch resent the Emperor? thinks brother Salivin. Curze is a hypocrite. 

 

Example

Fulgrim has become a monster. You look down at your tattooes and surgical alterations. They seem tawdry, pathetic. You were made to be a demigod, and now you have vandalised yourself. Monstrous now, you steal away on patrol, hoping to return to the Emperor's fold – a twice-turned traitor.

 

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The drawbacks of the god's perspective

As players and readers, we have a lot of information denied to those in-universe. We know that the Emperor is fighting against the Chaos Gods. We know that eventually Horus is defeated and the Traitors scattered. We know that corruption has set in. 

 

Or has it?

 

By limiting what your character knows, you can see that forces can be trapped on the 'wrong' side, fighting alongside those he would willingly kill, if he only knew what you did.

 

Example

Consider Brother Phlebas of the XIII, commander of a distant garrison. Word comes from the Warmaster himself that the Emperor has been killed by Dorn. Phlebas immediately attempts to join with his old comrades of the XVI in a war of vengeance; shedding the Imperial Eagle – corrupted as it is by Dorn's treachery – and wearing the symbol of a new Imperium: the eye of noble Horus, greatest of all.

 

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The many shades of grey

The point of all this is to give you a little freedom when building your army. As has been pointed out on numerous occasions, the Legions are huge. There's always space for your character, squad, company or even Chapter to be on 'the other side' of history.

 

Giving your character and army reasons to fight will add depth. Heroes show flaws – which they can overcome; or fall prey to. Villains become less cardboardy, and more symapthetic.

 

I'll leave with a couple of pointers:

1) Don't be afraid to toe the line. A staunch, loyal exemplar of the Imperial Fist philosophy can be just as interesting as any other interpretation, if you provide him with challenges. How does a straight-up-and-down Captain, unused to subtlty, wheedle out potential traitors in the ranks?

 

2) Doing a straight face-heel turn (or vice versa) is a quick and easy route to a different character – villainous Ultramarine, or noble Night Lord, for example. However, it's ultimately just as limiting as the standard archetype of the Legion. Try to avoid thinking in absolute terms ('good, bad') and instead introduce doubt. This helps to avoid creating a 'Mary Sue'.

 

3) Develop your character. Every one has a story arc in them. If you start with the perfect warrior, he can only get worse (another reason to avoid paragons of virtue or arch-villains). Similarly, even the basest wretch has the potential of redemption.

 

4) Keep an eye on the existing background. A big part of the Legion's appeal is their archetype – bitter Iron Warriors, White Scars exulting in freedom – and creating a character or army that is opposed to that archetype for no good reason can be difficult to square. While you have absolute freedom to create your character as you wish, the soft limits of what others will find believable are useful helpers. 

 

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Conclusion

Anwyay; enough of the wall of text. Above all, I've seen a lot of players simply select their legion based on the historical Loyalty. I hope this essay has provided a little food for thought, and helps to add some texture and nuance to your games.

 

Finally, if you're undecided, simply try burying yourself in the Now of the Heresy – invest in your character, and see if you can add to the sadness, tragedy and darkness of the far future.

[Slips]

Bravo and well put. Thanks for the thought exercise and enjoyable read!

[Daemon2027]

Really intresting read Apologist. I'm currently working on my Death Guard Praetor, and I've been thinking of his character as I work. My initial intention was a run in the mill Barbarus born officer, who had fought against the Xeonos tyrant next to Mortarion before the reunion with the Emperor, fiercely loyal to the Primarch he followed him without question. However as I have built the the model, he feels more complex, has a noble streak. So I'm starting to think why a Terran Death Guard may choose the Warmaster over the Empire. My thoughts are that the Death Guard, and the Dusk Raiders before that, were strongly opposed to tyranny, and put a lot in strength. It seems simple that a Terran Death Guard may come to see the Emperor, and his Imperium as the very tyranny he has always striven to destroy, and the Emperor, giving over command to the Warmaster, could be seen as weak, with the Death Guard serving beside the Sons of Horus in the lead up to the Heresy, he may come to appreciate the strength of Horus, but also his ability to rule. Of course, as the Heresy progresses, he may start to doubt the wisdom of his choice, but by then the corruption will have started to take hold.

[Balthamal]

Excellent line of thinking, wish more people would take this approach rather than simply picking Legion X because they did Y which consequently makes them better than ABC et al

[Leif Bearclaw]

Really intresting read Apologist. I'm currently working on my Death Guard Praetor, and I've been thinking of his character as I work. My initial intention was a run in the mill Barbarus born officer, who had fought against the Xeonos tyrant next to Mortarion before the reunion with the Emperor, fiercely loyal to the Primarch he followed him without question. However as I have built the the model, he feels more complex, has a noble streak. So I'm starting to think why a Terran Death Guard may choose the Warmaster over the Empire. My thoughts are that the Death Guard, and the Dusk Raiders before that, were strongly opposed to tyranny, and put a lot in strength. It seems simple that a Terran Death Guard may come to see the Emperor, and his Imperium as the very tyranny he has always striven to destroy, and the Emperor, giving over command to the Warmaster, could be seen as weak, with the Death Guard serving beside the Sons of Horus in the lead up to the Heresy, he may come to appreciate the strength of Horus, but also his ability to rule. Of course, as the Heresy progresses, he may start to doubt the wisdom of his choice, but by then the corruption will have started to take hold.

 

The issue you have with a DG like that isn't why he'd follow Horus and Mortarion into rebellion, rather it's 'why did Mortarion spare him?'. It's been made explicitly clear that the DG culled virtually all their Terran Marines at Istvaan III, because it appears Mortarion didn't trust/like them enough. Why was your guy not sent to his death like so many of his peers? That's a vital question you need to answer.

 

Personally, I'm not really a fan of the 'other side of history' thing. Essentially I think it's become too common. It's the 30k equivalent of 'this Chapter of unknown gene-seed is really made from Traitor stock'. I also often find it underplays the Primarch influence. All 18 of them were demi gods, with an inevitable cult of personality, and I find it dubious that a large number of a Legion would be caught up in another Primarch's personality cult, rather than their own. Granted, all Legions aren't equal in this, and I find Loyalists from Traitor Legions easier to justify than Traitors from Loyal Legions. A Loyalist IW or AL raises fewer questions, and hence would be more common than a Loyalist WB. Likewise, Traitor WS and IH make a lot more sense than traitor Fists or Wolves. However, all of these aberrations should be anomalies, rare and special.

[Daemon2027]

The issue you have with a DG like that isn't why he'd follow Horus and Mortarion into rebellion, rather it's 'why did Mortarion spare him?'. It's been made explicitly clear that the DG culled virtually all their Terran Marines at Istvaan III, because it appears Mortarion didn't trust/like them enough. Why was your guy not sent to his death like so many of his peers? That's a vital question you need to answer.

That is an issue I've yet to figure out.

 

I dislike the idea that all Terran marines are culled by certain legions. I don't think Terra is a harmonious place, I think there are a lot of factions who have been forced to follow the Emperor, and there were those taken to be marines who may have seen their future lieing elsewhere. The sons of Albian were given up to several legions, but they would have remembered how the Albion clans had fought for their freedom from the pan Pacific empire and had fought the Emperor to a standstill. Why would these sons stay loyal to the Emperor when their Primarch gives them another choice, promises that they will bring freedom to the clans they came from.

[apologist]

Personally, I'm not really a fan of the 'other side of history' thing. [...] I also often find it underplays the Primarch influence. All 18 of them were demi gods, with an inevitable cult of personality, and I find it dubious that a large number of a Legion would be caught up in another Primarch's personality cult, rather than their own.

A very valid point.

Gaming groups are likely to have an unequal number of Legions that are loyalists or traitors; and in any case, having characters that play 'the other side' immediately doubles your pool of people to meet and interact with over a game. Of course, it's easy to simply say that 'my/your Captain is a traitor/loyalist for this game', and for many that will suffice.

Part of the reason for writing this was to encourage people to think about their characters and armies in order to help them justify and enjoy their games. The background and social interaction is an important part of the past-time, so a little help to grease the wheel without forcing one player to change his army for a game is a worthwhile goal.

The best way to do this, I feel, is to make the shades of grey explicit, and draw out some questions that might help people see that even two sides that are nominally loyal can end up in conflict. For example:

1) Two loyal commanders disagree on the best course of action to defend a planet. Suspicious of the other commanders true loyalty, they continue with their entrenchment without consultation... which involves detonating a bridge vital to the other's defensive plans.

2) Two fleets emerge from a void-point outside of a neutral system. A jumpy gunner panics and launches a shot that hits the other fleet, sparking a brief panic. Before the order can be disseminated, a Stormhawk full of marines is launched. Suspecting treachery, nothing will dissuade them from their attack.

3) Captain Carmine has long held a grudge against Lieutenant Revus of a rival Chapter. After the conclusion of a successful campaign, both are ordered back to the ships – and not to return without the Statue of the system's folkhero, Macguffin, with which the senior commander hopes to rally support across the system for the cause. Neither is willing to back down, and there have been nasty rumours that the other is a fifth columnist.

4) Lord Barker of the I Legion is the staunchest, proudest loyalist of all. He has his orders – from Lord Russ himself – and nothing, not even that blowhard Otti, is going to make him move from his mountain fastness.

5) This is all a bluff, isn't it? Legionary Crom wonders. We're not really going to invade Terra, are we? As his Legion mounts the droppods, Crom rushes to the control room to confirm the attack, where he meets an Honour Guard set to protect the bridge from internal attack. The Guard won't let him see the Primarch, and thus Crom is forced to believe the Guards are traitors, who has subdued or killed the Primarch.

The point is that making these stories explicit – and they take just moments to create if you both have a good idea of how your character will react – helps create a shared sense of ownership and storytelling, which leads to a game more about exploring the background in a friendly but competitive way than a no-holds barred contest.

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I do absolutely agree with your second point, Leif – that the Primarch's influence is often underplayed. I think that the idea of an Astartes giving his loyalty to the Primarch first, then the Emperor – which was a core concept in the older background – has been lost or muddied a little too much; to the point that it's very difficult to imagine exceptions.

This is exacerbated by the fact that exceptionalism tends to make for more exciting narratives because they create conflict – we hear about Garro or Loken because they were loyalists who struck out. Everyone should feel free to make their character a special snowflake, but your point is a very good one – avoid clichés.

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Thanks for the thoughtful feedback, all. I'd love to read some of the answers your characters have to the questions in the opening post. To make them explicit:

1) What are the defining characteristics of your character? Remember, keep them neutral and objective.

2) What's unusual (if anything) about those characteristics, when comparing them to another in the same Legion?

3) Where do the character's loyalties lie?

4) What are your character's beliefs?

5) How far have your characters beliefs and loyalties changed from before the Heresy?

6) More importantly – why?

7) What are the potential conflicts for the character within the Legion, and outside?

8) How do his allies see him? Is he under threat from them?

[DuskRaider]

My Death Guard Praetor is a Traitor and a Terran. He is drawn to the idea of toppling the Emperor as a tyrant, as it was his grandfather who felled Narthan Dume. His brother was also in the Legion as the Captain of the Third Grand Company. On Isstvan III he murdered his brother in a duel, whilst also sustaining mortal wounds, to prove his loyalty to the Death Lord. In return, Mortarion spared his life, had him repaired by the Primus Medicae, and granted him the leadership of the Third Grand Company. Terran Death Guard, now a Praetor.

[jimbo13]

+++++ BEGIN TRANSMISSION +++++

 

File: Clint Fisher

Legion: VII

Origin: Terran

Rank: Captain

Company: 13th Company, "Swords of Conviction"

 

Notes-

• Received Censure from Primarch due to "unorthodox tactics"
• Worked closely with XXth Legion Operatives
• Overly staunch believer in the Imperium, observed as overzealous

Evaluation:

Believer in the ideals of the Imperial Truth as well as the Imperium. Started his career within the legions Pre-Dorn. Worked with XXth Legion Operatives on multiple missions, all successful but with little to no information as to what occured. After working with XXth starting employing new tactics deemed unsavory and pushing the boundaries of how to operate in war time theater. Claims that anything is necessary to protect the Imperium, Increasingly insistent on unorthodox tactics. Lord Dorn is noted to have censured his small battle company and sent them to operate in a predation fleet until further orders. Accepted sentence unquestioningly. Operating on the outer reaches of the Imperium and awaiting further orders. Loyalty is unwavering to the Imperium. Captain Fisher shows a very similar quality to his Primarch is regards to what he will do to preserve his perceived Imperium. 

 

• Willing to do whatever is necessary to accomplish his goals
• Brash and Cavalier operating methods bordering on dangerous
• Puts men at risk to accomplish goal
• Loyal to Imperium
• Oath Bound
• Character keeps Sergeants as advisors
• Close ties with some XXth Legion operatives, this is cause for concern
• XXth legion ties make us unsure of what end goals are
• Last transmission about Horus's Betrayal was received but not answered
• Shortly after Retribution fleet ambush and recall to VII legion was made Captain Fisher sent an encrypted message

Concerns:

Seems to willing to go as far as necessary. Within the Legion the only Captain that seems to communicate with Fisher is Rann. Both seem to have similar attitudes/temperament. Close bonds with XXth legion are unusual, most within legion have a poor outlook on their cousins and this is reflected in opinions of Captain Fisher. With no response from news of the Heresy unsure if Captain Fisher is still "with" us. Possibility of defection with the Alpha Legion. Dorn's censure may have pushed the Captain away.

 

***** Encrypted Message *****

 

"When principles  that run against your deepest convictions begin to win the day, then battle is your calling, and peace has become sin; you must, at the price of dearest peace, lay your convictions bare before friend and enemy, with all the fire of your faith."

 

-Abraham Kuyper

 

*****************************************

 

THREAT LEVEL: UNCERTAIN.......

 

 

 

+++++ END TRANSMISSION +++++

[Inquisitor Kravin]

This is one of the best threads I've read in ages. You've given a nice focus on one of the great things about the Heresy - the fact it's not actually a straight up "Good" vs. "Evil".

 

I would add one extra category to the list in your original post:

 

Loyalty to Legion.

 

Just as loyalty to The Emperor and loyalty to the Imperium are not the same Legion is not the same as Primarch. This mainly applies to marines found pre-Primarch, e.g. Terran Raven Guard, Lhorke in Betrayer, and legions with more obviously broken/monstrous Primarchs e.g. Angron and Curze.

 

In the Black Library audio short "Watcher" we encounter a Blood Angel officer who is loyal to the Imperium but hates Sanguinius for reasons that are not specified, showing that even the most beloved Primarchs had their opponents within their legions.

 

Interestingly, your topic coincides with a little fluff writing exercise I've set myself to write little fluff vignettes that look at marines whose roles go against type. It is often said that all the Legions had all the units so how does it feel to be say, an artillery master in the White Scars or a Vigilator in the Imperial Fists?

[Daemon2027]

I do like the loyalty to Legion idea. A Legion that has a lot of potential in that area would be the Raven Guard, Think of those Nomad Predatation fleets, loyal to the Legion but with no love of Corax due to the exile. Of course that's an obvious example but one that can be easily pulled from FW's background.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Just to give this great thread a bump:

 

Captain Cesare of the III legion spent decades dedicated to the service of his Primarch. He carried out his orders unquestioningly and unfailingly but that braggart Eidolon always took the credit and the primarch was too self-absorbed and capricious to notice. Fulgrim didn't deserve Cesare's devotion.

 

Under excruciation a captured Iron Hand revealed that Guilliman was building a new army from those who no longer had a legion so Cesare has travelled to Ultramar to pledge his service. Upon his arrival he was greeted and praised by The Lord Of Ultramar for his staunch loyalty. He feigned grief at the prospect that The Emperor is dead. In truth he cares little. He only wants a chance to see his so called superiors like Eidolon humbled. Until then he enjoys the dark looks that the legionaries of the 1st Legion give him.

[Visitor13]

Just to give this great thread a bump:

 

Captain Cesare of the III legion spent decades dedicated to the service of his Primarch. He carried out his orders unquestioningly and unfailingly but that braggart Eidolon always took the credit and the primarch was too self-absorbed and capricious to notice. Fulgrim didn't deserve Cesare's devotion.

 

Under excruciation a captured Iron Hand revealed that Guilliman was building a new army from those who no longer had a legion so Cesare has travelled to Ultramar to pledge his service. Upon his arrival he was greeted and praised by The Lord Of Ultramar for his staunch loyalty. He feigned grief at the prospect that The Emperor is dead. In truth he cares little. He only wants a chance to see his so called superiors like Eidolon humbled. Until then he enjoys the dark looks that the legionaries of the 1st Legion give him.

 

The only problem with your story.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Fair point. The Emperor's Children are creative though. Perhaps they tickled him or used THE COMFY CHAIR!

 

I like to think that it wasn't that the Iron Hand gave in to the pain but that he got careless. Cesare taunted him for no longer having a legion and he retorted, "I have plenty of brothers and they'll find me long before you break me."

...

[Marshal Rohr]

The problem with all this is just how over represented traitors are, in general, and the ability to build more compelling stories out of them than loyalists.

 

Almost all loyalist fan stories are cookie cutter with very little depth. Only a few forum posters have built compelling loyalist armies. JackDaw is a perfect example of an excellent loyalist army. Most everyone else is just variation of the same story, over and over, as archetypes of their legion OR, even worse, 'transplants' from other legions.

 

Instead of coming up with reasons why one side or the other can be a compelling army the sub-forum as a whole needs to quit :cuss around with made up legions, rules questions, and legion circle jerks and start stepping up their story game to match JackDaw, Apologist, Hyaenidae, and the other few that lead our sub-forum in quality.

[Dantay VI]

I am not good at writing, but I'll give it a stab once I get each unit done!

 

Just don't judge me, as I will never get to the heights of Jackdaw, Heinrich, Hyenidae, Flint or Apologist.

[Olis]

The problem with all this is just how over represented traitors are, in general, and the ability to build more compelling stories out of them than loyalists.

Almost all loyalist fan stories are cookie cutter with very little depth. Only a few forum posters have built compelling loyalist armies. JackDaw is a perfect example of an excellent loyalist army. Most everyone else is just variation of the same story, over and over, as archetypes of their legion OR, even worse, 'transplants' from other legions.

Instead of coming up with reasons why one side or the other can be a compelling army the sub-forum as a whole needs to quit around with made up legions, rules questions, and legion circle jerks and start stepping up their story game to match JackDaw, Apologist, Hyaenidae, and the other few that lead our sub-forum in quality.

Some people are simply not adept at story making, so I don't think using a stick instead of a carrot is the way to go here. If you feel that certain sections of the subforum need to up their game, then be pro-active about it and try to help them rather than indirectly berate them. A little bit less of the piss and vinegar goes a long way. There is a reason why the likes of Hyaenidae and co. stand out - it is because they can spin a good tale, be it from a naturally gifted stand point or a one that has required they learn the hard way. Not everyone can do it. Also, to be fair, interpretation and appreciation of certain stories and themes can vary greatly from person to person regardless of experience, so what you might think of as a subpar story, someone else may think of as inspired. It is simply a matter of opinion.

[geordie]

An area I find most interesting on this topic dates way back before the first seeds of heresy were sown.

 

I recall in Book 1, Betrayal, as well as possibly elsewhere it mentions that the first members of the then Terran based Legions fought alongside or at least on the same side as the Thunder Warrior regiments in the last conflicts in the Unification Wars. The official line as to what happened to the Thunder Warriors was something along the lines of they died to a man in one of the last battles of that era. We know this now not to be true. Their fate was much darker, despite fighting, sweating, bleeding and dying for the 'Emperor,' they were ultimately put to the sword by their own allies at the order of their own creator.

 

That the early Legions were involved in this act on Terra is implied. The Warhounds even put down a number who escaped off world to Luna?

 

I can't help wondering what the Legions thought of this. As the Great Crusade stretched across the stars the numbers within the Legions who had fought in the Unification Wars must have dwindled but surely not disappeared.  The fate of the Thunder Warriors, used tools, cast aside would not be forgotten.

 

In the novels some Legionnaires muse over what happens once the Great Crusade is over. Assuming there are no extra-galactic threats what purpose do the Legions serve? Some would be suited to a non war footing better than others. Some Legions are renowned for being not just warriors but artists, architects, poets, mathematicians, politicians. Some would undoubtedly be an asset to any peace time populace.  Some however would not...

 

Do doubts still linger? Do dark rumours about their fate come the end of the Great Crusade persist?

 

If someone was going to put a bullet in the back of your head after you'd done your job would you accept it? Or try to turn the gun on your executioner?

[Balthamal]

I don't think generic Legion themes is a bad thing per say. There can be loads of cool ideas expressed by looking at what makes that particular Legion cool and rolling with it, whether they be loyalist or traitor. In the same vein I don't have a problem with people experimenting with ideas that "go against the grain" as it were because every Legion would have had them. I get more irritated when people try to push ideas so unrealistic that they're falling apart from the word go and then complain/try to justify why it's the coolest thing ever after posting it here, expecting some constructive criticism which nobody can dispute is offered in a calm and concise way on the boards. We're nothing if not polite (mostly)

 

Like for example someone wanted to portray the former Legion master of the World Eaters taking his companies and fleeing before Istvaan III because loyalty to the Emperor is more important: that's utter :cuss because A) Lhorke was in a dreadnaught chassis and Gheer was butchered the night of Angron's discovery. Or a brother of the III Legion who cares not for convoluted battle plans and bulls his way to victory with sheer bloody-mindedness. Now can such a man exist? Of course. Is he going to rise through the ranks? Quite possibly. War makes expediency a crowning virtue. Is he going to be the trusted right hand Lord Commander of Fulgrim? God no. Because A) Fulgrim already had those (Eidolon and Vespasian) and given Fulgrim's obsession with perfection, would he reward someone who falls so far short in his eyes? Would he hell.

 

Anyway if people don't want to write or flesh out the army they're building I've got no problem at all with that. To each their own. But Rohr is right, more thought does need to go in to those that are, especially for more popular Legions (like the Wolves when they're out, going to be hundreds of people trying to fit their Wolf Lords into the thirteen Great Companies)

[The Prince]

This. This is exactly my way of thinking about it all.

 

For my XVI company (who I really should post more of) the choice wasn't really loyalist or traitor, but more chaos or renegade. The original betrayal and purging with the Legion was all well and good, but the aesthetic the EC take post Istvaan V just wasn't the right show. So instead the XVI break off as a renegade raiding force, loyal to the warmaster and the old teachings of the Legion. 

 

With the heresy there is so many options and choices that can be made, and so many reasons why ANY legionnaire may turn traitor to his own Legion or to the Imperium (or both!). The simple line of 'good vs bad' doesn't apply here, its a kind of anarchy that only an ideological civil war can bring about - ripe for so much story and exploration.

 

Another example I'll draw are my Black Shield Mercenaries. These former Imperial Fists found their small garrison torn apart by internal feuding between Captain Stein's pragmatism and his commander's fanatical loyalty. When faced with certain death at the hands of the XVI and their renegade host, Stein's men made peaceterms that secured the safety of their fortress in return for a tithe of men to fight in (self proclaimed) Lord Commander Sebastian's forces. These men aren't disloyal to their Legion's teachings, they simply found a greater success could be had without the tenets of the Imperium. 

 

Just my two pence on the topic ^.^

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm dreading the release of the Wolves for the specific reason that it will unleash a torrent of time traveling Logan Grimnars and Ragnar Blackmane with the boisterous 'we the best' football club mentality that comes with anything space wolf.

 

For Balth's other points, he's right on the money. There is a line between an iconoclast or outsider and the 30K equivalent of your variable ethnic funny man from a tv sitcom. An Ultramarine who acts like a World Eater is a poorly thought out character. An Ultramarine with a reputation for bloody results is perfectly normal. How many Roman Generals butchered and crucified thousands only to return to Rome for the finest dinner parties with a reputation as a butcher in spite of his perfect manners? A space wolf who spends all his time practicing small unit tactics and using guerrilla warfare on campaign is a clear Raven Guard knock off. A space wolf who uses guerrilla tactics is perfectly normal, a shadow dwelling ninja is a clear transplant of a player trying to blend two seperate legion cultures together with a crow bar.

 

The clearest indicator of this is always the inevitable 'Captain x has many sworn brothers/spent time fighting alongside learning their ways/recruited from the same place on Terra' line that shows up over and over again.

 

I'm sure one of our veteran members can explain to everyone that a military is a small community. You come across people you've met and worked with countless times over a career. You'd never find an Air Force MP company commander who decides to or is allowed to use his unit like an army Ranger Battalion because he was good buddies with the Ranger CO.

 

Realism, people. This is not 40K. In the immortal words of Ryan Gosling 'be better than the gap', and so must 30K players 'be better than 40K'

[DuskRaider]

Instead of coming up with reasons why one side or the other can be a compelling army the sub-forum as a whole needs to quit around with made up legions, rules questions, and legion circle jerks and start stepping up their story game to match JackDaw, Apologist, Hyaenidae, and the other few that lead our sub-forum in quality.

I agree and quite frankly I'm a little tired of seeing "Lost Legion" stuff everywhere in here. For a good week or two that's all there was in here.

[Jareddm]

I've got a brief little idea that I've been playing around with.  It plays off of two relatively unused features of the legions.  The idea of secondary recruitment worlds for filling gaps while on long-term deployment, and the idea of loyalty to legion belief, if not to the legion itself.

 

The world of Ramos was an ocean world, peacefully brought into compliance by Vulkan.  It served as a minor resupply world of materials and marines for the Salamanders only once during the Great Crusade, it's position useful for emergencies but deemed too far out of the way for most expedition fleets to stop by.  The Ramosians who would join the Salamanders were treated no differently by others in the legion.  They traveled to Nocturne, went through implantation and training and, to most, appear and act no different from their legion brothers.

 

However, what held the Ramosians' attentions was not the awe of the primarch, or the grandeur of the Imperium.  It was the Promethean Cult.  They found its teachings regarding endurance of hardship, self-reliance, and the protection of humanity to be enlightening.  With Vulkan's reluctant permission, they adapted it to their own homeworld, replacing the metaphors of the fire and the forge with the intense deep sea pressure they were familiar with in the undersea cities of Ramos.  However, the core principles never changed.  This alternate interpretation of the Promethean Cult created a strong bond between the Salamanders of Ramosian descent, though they numbered barely more than two companies across the legion.

 

At Istvaan, the Ramosians suffered alongside their brothers.  Being isolated from most of the other pockets of survivors and reduced to approximately fifty in number, they firmly believed that Vulkan had died and the legion along with it.  They surrendered to the Sons of Horus, pledging to wear the Eye of Horus, in the hope that their homeworld may pledge itself to Horus as well as a means of waiting out the storm that is the Heresy.  However, they maintain the teachings of their first adopted father as a way to endure their current positions.  Though they now bear the Eye of Horus on their pauldron, like the Nocturne Salamander before it, it is displayed entwined in the symbol of their homeworld, the Ramosian Kraken.

[Kizzdougs]

I feel like some people are taking this way too seriously. The AoD community is made up of people with varying interests, literary capabilities, and of different ages, although age is less of an issue here than it is in the general 40k community. If you don't like someone else's project, then just ignore it. I'll open most topics at least once, and if I'm not interested I'll just leave it alone. I don't think that I've ever been personally frustrated by another members questions/hobby project/fluff etc.

 

We all have our hobby related weaknesses. Some struggle with painting and modelling, others with writing and fluff. The 'hobby butterfly' syndrome is a challenge that nearly all of us struggle with. I really, really wish that I could write/conceptualise like Hyaenidae, BCK etc. but I can't. About a year ago, Hyaenidae and I were planing to start a collaborative project. Ultimately the project failed to go anywhere because I didn't feel that I could pull my weight from a fluff writing perspective. Creative writing has never been one of my strong suits. I'm much more confident with academic/analytical styles. I tend to 'wimp' out when it comes to writing fluff for my minis because I know that it won't be believable or 'realistic' and that I won't be able to properly express myself (realistic is such a subjective/relative word, especially in the 30k/40k setting). 

 

We should celebrate the projects and threads that we love, and constructively critique those that we think could improve. If a thread or project really frustrates you, you're probably taking yourself a little bit too seriously. Just ignore it. We have Mods for a reason :)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I feel like some people are taking this way too seriously. The AoD community is made up of people with varying interests, literary capabilities, and of different ages, although age is less of an issue here than it is in the general 40k community. If you don't like someone else's project, then just ignore it. I'll open most topics at least once, and if I'm not interested I'll just leave it alone. I don't think that I've ever been personally frustrated by another members questions/hobby project/fluff etc.

We all have our hobby related weaknesses. Some struggle with painting and modelling, others with writing and fluff. The 'hobby butterfly' syndrome is a challenge that nearly all of us struggle with. I really, really wish that I could write/conceptualise like Hyaenidae, BCK etc. but I can't. About a year ago, Hyaenidae and I were planing to start a collaborative project. Ultimately the project failed to go anywhere because I didn't feel that I could pull my weight from a fluff writing perspective. Creative writing has never been one of my strong suits. I'm much more confident with academic/analytical styles. I tend to 'wimp' out when it comes to writing fluff for my minis because I know that it won't be believable or 'realistic' and that I won't be able to properly express myself (realistic is such a subjective/relative word, especially in the 30k/40k setting).

We should celebrate the projects and threads that we love, and constructively critique those that we think could improve. If a thread or project really frustrates you, you're probably taking yourself a little bit too seriously. Just ignore it. We have Mods for a reason

Thank you for saying it better than I could.

I found some of the views expressed here...a little unreal.

WLK