Reasons to join the Warmaster

[Marshal Rohr]

It's not about writing ability, technically. It's about ideas. WLK and I had spent a while bouncing Nomad Predation fleet ideas off each other. Tyrannicide and I are in constant communication on how to feel in themes we feel are too broad or out of place. That's my main point. If we all talked to each other like that, instead of just rubber stamping every idea all our work would collectively improve. I'm always around to talk fluff, Tyrannicide is too when she's got the time.

 

There is no reason why the AoD forum shouldn't be as open to fluff criticism as other sub forums. The heresy exploded too fast. Everyone jumped aboard different ships in the same fleet. We never really nailed down the crew part.

[DuskRaider]

I just don't like the "Create Your Own Legion" or "Lost Legion" stuff. I remember when folks were trying to post Dornian Heresy threads here and were promptly moved, but honestly there's no difference and it's a slippery slope. I don't care about people's fluff, as long as it'sa n actual canon Legion or organization from 30K.

[apologist]

At the core of the universe's appeal for me is that everything is misreported, misfiled and confused. As a result, it's perfectly possible for almost anything to happen – from something as simple as Mark V armour being a separate design, to something as complex as the Legions never existing as anything more than propaganda. 

 

The thought behind the thread was simply to share ideas. It's moved a bit away from that (which is fine, after all it's a discussion hall, not a lecture theatre!), but I would like to emphasise that everything you have been told is a lie. :)

 

I'd encourage creative critique of any idea – almost anything can be improved. That said, ultimately we all need to have our own space in the great sandpit of the 31st Millennium. There's a balance to be struck between happily enjoying yourself and joining in with others, in which case learning to share's a great lesson. Relating that to the Heresy means finidng the common ground – the books, the art, the history.

 

That said, those sources should never be limiting. There are hundreds of gaps and untold stories to explore; and in any case it's all open for discussion. There's no 'truth' in 30k. :)

[Skalpynock]

I just don't like the "Create Your Own Legion" or "Lost Legion" stuff. I remember when folks were trying to post Dornian Heresy threads here and were promptly moved, but honestly there's no difference and it's a slippery slope. I don't care about people's fluff, as long as it'sa n actual canon Legion or organization from 30K.

Even as a "perpetrator" of one such thread, I have to agree they had no reason to be in the AoD subforum in the first place. And as of late these had gotten really out of hand, hence why they have been moved from here to Special Projects (still not sure if that was a good idea either, but at least AoD is less cluttered).

 

Back on topic, I think loyalist elements from traitor legions, and renegade elements from loyalist legions should remain the exception. While it's nice to break the mold from time to time, ultimately we lose the greater effect of the Heresy: nine legions, corrupted through false promises and the influence of chaos lodges, rebelling against their brothers. I find it far more interesting to explore the various reason for their treachery (or loyalty) than getting away from it completely.

[Balthamal]

It's not about writing ability, technically. It's about ideas. WLK and I had spent a while bouncing Nomad Predation fleet ideas off each other. Tyrannicide and I are in constant communication on how to feel in themes we feel are too broad or out of place. That's my main point. If we all talked to each other like that, instead of just rubber stamping every idea all our work would collectively improve. I'm always around to talk fluff, Tyrannicide is too when she's got the time.

 

There is no reason why the AoD forum shouldn't be as open to fluff criticism as other sub forums. The heresy exploded too fast. Everyone jumped aboard different ships in the same fleet. We never really nailed down the crew part.

 

This. And I feel I should clarify that my previous post wasn't meant to put anyone down personally. That fact that people care passionately enough about our hobby that they're willing to share their ideas with everyone else here is probably one, if not the, greatest strengths of this community. And long may it continue.

 

That being said, I still think it's important for critique/debate/conversation to take place, especially in cases where liberal license has been taken with the established fluff. I don't think anyone can dispute that the amount of information that goes into each volume is the thing that sets HH apart from everything else GW does (a balanced and creative rules set comes a close second) and in a sense there's a certain amount of pressure/expectation that anything we as a group within the wider hobby community and as a distinct group in the AoD forum, should live up to, and respect, what's already out there. Don't get me wrong, there's only a small select few here who can write with the same quality as an Alan Bligh or John French so trying to hold everyone to those standards is not only pointless but stupid. But when someone is trying to push an idea that is so far away or directly contradicts established material, it should be pointed out. 

 

Enough of that back on topic. The angle I took with my Night Lords being that although a good portion of them are Terran (having already survived an attempted purge by the previous Nostramon commander) they hate the Primarch (he's a weight that will drag them down with his degeneration) and the Emperor both. To my rather philosophically inclined captain, he's simply exchanged one prison (the med sinkhole gulag he was born in) for one fashioned from ceramite, gene splicing and duty. Still a prisoner chained up. That and after seeing the fate of the Thunder Warriors believing (quite probably correctly) that would be the fate awaiting the Legions - when there is only peace, any symbol or reminder of war is unpalatable.

 

That could have been a strong motivator for many - the uncertainty of their future beyond the Great Crusade, the rumour of how the Thunder Warriors were ended by the early incarnations of the Legions. Or equally you could see the other side of the coin - Captain Teg of the IX Legion fought desperately to relive the Thunder Warrior cohorts at Mount Ararat but was prevented by the tenacity of the foe, breaking their lines as the last fell and the Thunder and Lightning Banner was raised proclaiming Unity. Now Teg fights to honour such dedication to the future of humanity. As someone pointed out rather well in another thread, 40K can be broken down into shades of grey instead of black and white. 30k just narrows the spectrum.

[apologist]

 

Back on topic, I think loyalist elements from traitor legions, and renegade elements from loyalist legions should remain the exception. While it's nice to break the mold from time to time, ultimately we lose the greater effect of the Heresy: nine legions, corrupted through false promises and the influence of chaos lodges, rebelling against their brothers. I find it far more interesting to explore the various reason for their treachery (or loyalty) than getting away from it completely.

 

 

Reading back over my opening post, I'm inclined to think that I rather over-emphasised the 'individuals against their Legion' angle. Mea culpa!

 

I had intended things to be a bit more balanced, and emphasise the ways that members of the Traitor legions might try to justify their treachery to themselves – essentially, we know how Loken felt as the opening trilogy focusses closely on his thoughts. 

 

How do Abaddon, Eidolon, Little Horus etc. justify things? There are lots of obvious reasons the members of the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Iron Warriors et al. choose to follow their Primarch, but I'm interested to hear the more creative ways the Fraters have come up with for their characters to justify their actions.

 

How do they look at things to see themselves as the good guys?

[Daemon2027]

I find it difficult to write a good narrative but at the same time I really want to. I've never been a strong writer and find it hard to get the ideas in my head down on paper. The main problem I find is getting stuck on an idea and trying to hard to make it work.

 

For example I really like the idea of my main character, be he praetor or whatever, being from Terra. I like the idea of a traitor from the holiest of holy planets, I would feel he had a cause beyond that of want less destruction, he would have a need to free earth from the Emperor. However I just don't feel I can really add much depth to it.

 

I'm not sure if it's been mention but FW did give us another avenue for 'loyalist' traitors. Those who may well have stayed loyal but were forced to fight against their brothers due to distrust by the Primarch and his inner circle.

 

Not all those who fought and died on Istvaan III would have stayed loyal to the emperor had they been given a chance. Or the Iron Warriros on Paramar, who know which side they would have joined if the Alpha Legion handnt forced their hand. This is something I'm now considering, Death Guard still loyal to their legion but forced to fight against their brothers to survive. They wouldn't sit down and die, that's not I. The nature of any space marine, let alone a Death Guard. They would fight, for the honour of their legion, to reclaim it from those who have tarnished it honour.

 

There is also another 'side' to consider. There's nothing stopping a faction of Space Marines going compleat my rogue, reggecying bother the Imperium and the Warmaster and looking to forge their own empire.

[Plaguecaster]

Iv always considered a double traitor word bearers force, one that hate their primarch Lorgar as much at the Emperor for betraying them. After reading tempest I couldn't get over the fact Lorgar culled a good portion of his legion just because their strong hatred for the ultramarines was viewed as an issue. I reckon it would be cool some word bearers realising their primarch had betrayed them and decided to carve out their own destiny, I believe there were a number of word bearers who managed to escape Calth so maybe it could be possible

[Somerandomidiot]

With my Thousand Sons, I decided to go the (relatively) loyalist route by having them be a faction that was uncomfortable with how deep Magnus was delving into sorcery. For this, Magnus banished them from Prospero, which I hope lets me keep them on the fine line between traitor and loyalist, without tying their fate to the greater legion.

[apologist]

I think the Thousand Sons and White Scars in particular make for some compelling stories, as they're less obviously connected with the broader sides of the Heresy. Of course we know the Legions end up being traitor and loyalist as broad strokes, but there are specific examples of groups – often relatively influential – that split off, sit on the sidelines, or are otherwise engaged.

[Athrawes]

I just don't like the "Create Your Own Legion" or "Lost Legion" stuff. I remember when folks were trying to post Dornian Heresy threads here and were promptly moved, but honestly there's no difference and it's a slippery slope. I don't care about people's fluff, as long as it'sa n actual canon Legion or organization from 30K.

Instead of coming up with reasons why one side or the other can be a compelling army the sub-forum as a whole needs to quit around with made up legions, rules questions, and legion circle jerks and start stepping up their story game to match JackDaw, Apologist, Hyaenidae, and the other few that lead our sub-forum in quality.

And yet the II and XI Legion are cannon. They existed. They are mentioned and alluded to over and over again in the lore, and in some way directly influenced the events of the Heresy by their absence or extermination. It's not beyond the realm of possiblity that handfuls of them survived into the days of the Heresy and take part in its drama.

While I entirely agree that everything to do with SImisons "Brotherhood of the Lost" Thing should be moved to special project (in fact I tried to tell him from the beginning that the special projects sub forum is where is belongs), I don't think lost Legion projects should be discouraged.

If you have followed my project at all over the last two years, you might know that I have made every effort to fit my fluff into the framework of what you consider cannon. That I have striven to create the best quality models I can and write the best quality of lore and fluff I can as well.

At the end of the day, that's all any hobby community has any right ask for in my opinion.

[Marshal Rohr]

I just don't like the "Create Your Own Legion" or "Lost Legion" stuff. I remember when folks were trying to post Dornian Heresy threads here and were promptly moved, but honestly there's no difference and it's a slippery slope. I don't care about people's fluff, as long as it'sa n actual canon Legion or organization from 30K.

Instead of coming up with reasons why one side or the other can be a compelling army the sub-forum as a whole needs to quit around with made up legions, rules questions, and legion circle jerks and start stepping up their story game to match JackDaw, Apologist, Hyaenidae, and the other few that lead our sub-forum in quality.

And yet the II and XI Legion are cannon. They existed. They are mentioned and alluded to over and over again in the lore, and in some way directly influenced the events of the Heresy by their absence or extermination. It's not beyond the realm of possiblity that handfuls of them survived into the days of the Heresy and take part in its drama.

While I entirely agree that everything to do with SImisons "Brotherhood of the Lost" Thing should be moved to special project (in fact I tried to tell him from the beginning that the special projects sub forum is where is belongs), I don't think lost Legion projects should be discouraged.

If you have followed my project at all over the last two years, you might know that I have made every effort to fit my fluff into the framework of what you consider cannon. That I have striven to create the best quality models I can and write the best quality of lore and fluff I can as well.

At the end of the day, that's all any hobby community has any right ask for in my opinion.

Anyone who commissions his own Primarch model and spent years developing the background is not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the 'Alpharius with psychic powers' or ' Angron's madder brother Rageron'

I should've articulated that in my initial post. There is actually a subtle reference to your legion in a background piece I've written for my own Marshal Rohr's first command as a Centurion.

[DuskRaider]

I just don't like the "Create Your Own Legion" or "Lost Legion" stuff. I remember when folks were trying to post Dornian Heresy threads here and were promptly moved, but honestly there's no difference and it's a slippery slope. I don't care about people's fluff, as long as it'sa n actual canon Legion or organization from 30K.

Instead of coming up with reasons why one side or the other can be a compelling army the sub-forum as a whole needs to quit around with made up legions, rules questions, and legion circle jerks and start stepping up their story game to match JackDaw, Apologist, Hyaenidae, and the other few that lead our sub-forum in quality.

And yet the II and XI Legion are cannon. They existed. They are mentioned and alluded to over and over again in the lore, and in some way directly influenced the events of the Heresy by their absence or extermination. It's not beyond the realm of possiblity that handfuls of them survived into the days of the Heresy and take part in its drama.

While I entirely agree that everything to do with SImisons "Brotherhood of the Lost" Thing should be moved to special project (in fact I tried to tell him from the beginning that the special projects sub forum is where is belongs), I don't think lost Legion projects should be discouraged.

If you have followed my project at all over the last two years, you might know that I have made every effort to fit my fluff into the framework of what you consider cannon. That I have striven to create the best quality models I can and write the best quality of lore and fluff I can as well.

At the end of the day, that's all any hobby community has any right ask for in my opinion.

I actually like your army. You've put a lot of thought and effort into it and it definitely shows. But the IInd and XIth are always going to remain a mystery. In fact, ADB had even said GW and BL have put an end to the hinting nonsense that was so prevalent in the beginning of the HH books. And yes, that alternate Legion malarkey had no place here.

[Olis]

And yes, that alternate Legion malarkey had no place here.

 

There are only two plausible places on B&C, outside of the Special Projects section, that would play host to discussions on alternate Legions. I disagree that the Horus Heresy subforum wasn't a place for them. The concepts stem from the source material that this subforum caters to and, prior to their move, only the Liber could sensibly say that such discussions deserved to be hosted there.

 

The fact that the most recent series of threads were moved and given their own space in the Special Projects forum should not detract from the idea that, at least in my opinion, the creation of content and material exploring alternative Legions and Heresies should be encouraged, not stifled. And, obviously, I think the HH subforum is just as good a place as any to start those discussions. 

[blackoption]

We are getting off topic here with this debate.  The purpose of this thread is to serve as a resource and inspiration for those who are developing 30k armies and the background/story behind them.  I applaud the effort, for it has made me relook at my Calth Veteran project.  I want characters on the order of Arathwes and Jackdaw's creations.  But to do that, I will need mentoring and resources so I don't fall into just being another archetype.

 

I also think that Apologist's pointers can be used to create Loyalists as well as Traitors.  Remember, the Warmaster is a polarizing figure, even before his promotion.  Corrax refused to serve alongside him after Gate 17.  He had a reputation of being callous with forces that did not have his favor (Ultramarines at Ullanor for example: Ref Vengeful Spirit).  

 

Perhaps the strongest character I have in my force was a veteran from Ullanor, who was censored for criticizing the newly frocked Warmaster for how the Ultramarines were left as bait for the Orks. 7 years later he survives the Calth Conjunction.  His hate for the traitors manifests in his belief that the Warmaster can be humbled.  He would relish chances to prove Ultramar ascendency over Horus and his rebellion.  

 

Either way, these are resources we need to help develop and improve our projects.

[Ion]

Going to the actual topic, I was wondering if people could give me some advice on the fluff I had planned for my loyalist Sons of Horus.

 

The basic premise behind it is that the Captain of the company is one of the older Cthonians and his early life in the mafioso-esque gang he was born into coupled with being trained when the Legion was still strongly Terran dominated means he sees the Emperor as the ultimate leader of their forces, and Horus (as much as he cares for his 'father') as a second in command at best. So when Horus turns against the emperor this captain and his company see it as rebellion against their rightful leader.

 

The current plan is that my particular company has spent a lot of time isolated from the rest of the legion and so haven't been as infected with Horus' cult of personality as other legionaries have, additionally they would have been recruiting from planets that weren't part of the usual pool that the SoH used, so newer members wouldn't even have met other members of their legion outside their Company.

 

I don't want to be overly cliched or sue it up, so I figure why not ask before setting things in stone. 

[blackoption]

Going to the actual topic, I was wondering if people could give me some advice on the fluff I had planned for my loyalist Sons of Horus.

 

The basic premise behind it is that the Captain of the company is one of the older Cthonians and his early life in the mafioso-esque gang he was born into coupled with being trained when the Legion was still strongly Terran dominated means he sees the Emperor as the ultimate leader of their forces, and Horus (as much as he cares for his 'father') as a second in command at best. So when Horus turns against the emperor this captain and his company see it as rebellion against their rightful leader.

 

The current plan is that my particular company has spent a lot of time isolated from the rest of the legion and so haven't been as infected with Horus' cult of personality as other legionaries have, additionally they would have been recruiting from planets that weren't part of the usual pool that the SoH used, so newer members wouldn't even have met other members of their legion outside their Company.

 

I don't want to be overly cliched or sue it up, so I figure why not ask before setting things in stone. 

 

A few thoughts....  You mentioned the company has been isolated from the rest of the legion: how come?   Generally, the Warmaster tended to favor his own legion by keeping them together and not assigned 2nd tier tasks (such as garrison duty or rebuilding duty).  So what happened that the Warmaster let this company be beyond his direct influence?  Possible options:  Perhaps this company was given a specific task that was considered an honor.  Alternatively, could this company be serving some kind of penance?  

 

Additionally, how does this company react to news of the rebellion? Is the commander's cult of personality to strong enough to quash any dissent/support for his own primarch? Specifically I am referring to the Veteran members of the company who have bonds to other members of the legion.  If the commander's charisma is insufficient to the task of keeping his force united:  perhaps he makes an example out of one of his rebellious Lts?  What colors does the Company wear (SoH Green or are they still in Luna Wolf White)?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Instead of coming up with reasons why one side or the other can be a compelling army the sub-forum as a whole needs to quit around with made up legions, rules questions, and legion circle jerks and start stepping up their story game to match JackDaw, Apologist, Hyaenidae, and the other few that lead our sub-forum in quality.

You do realize how condescending it is to tell people who value aspects of the hobby differently that they need to conform to what you like? I specifically fail to see how questions about rules devalues a sub forum that focuses on a very specific set of rules to play the game...

[Ion]

 

Going to the actual topic, I was wondering if people could give me some advice on the fluff I had planned for my loyalist Sons of Horus.

 

The basic premise behind it is that the Captain of the company is one of the older Cthonians and his early life in the mafioso-esque gang he was born into coupled with being trained when the Legion was still strongly Terran dominated means he sees the Emperor as the ultimate leader of their forces, and Horus (as much as he cares for his 'father') as a second in command at best. So when Horus turns against the emperor this captain and his company see it as rebellion against their rightful leader.

 

The current plan is that my particular company has spent a lot of time isolated from the rest of the legion and so haven't been as infected with Horus' cult of personality as other legionaries have, additionally they would have been recruiting from planets that weren't part of the usual pool that the SoH used, so newer members wouldn't even have met other members of their legion outside their Company.

 

I don't want to be overly cliched or sue it up, so I figure why not ask before setting things in stone. 

 

A few thoughts....  You mentioned the company has been isolated from the rest of the legion: how come?   Generally, the Warmaster tended to favor his own legion by keeping them together and not assigned 2nd tier tasks (such as garrison duty or rebuilding duty).  So what happened that the Warmaster let this company be beyond his direct influence?  Possible options:  Perhaps this company was given a specific task that was considered an honor.  Alternatively, could this company be serving some kind of penance?  

 

Additionally, how does this company react to news of the rebellion? Is the commander's cult of personality to strong enough to quash any dissent/support for his own primarch? Specifically I am referring to the Veteran members of the company who have bonds to other members of the legion.  If the commander's charisma is insufficient to the task of keeping his force united:  perhaps he makes an example out of one of his rebellious Lts?  What colors does the Company wear (SoH Green or are they still in Luna Wolf White)?

 

 

The current direction would be them leading a smaller expeditionary force of their own, haven't really decided on the explanation for why.

 

As for potential dissent, I was leaning towards the idea that the Captain can show how much he's his father's son and initiate a purge of the company prior to the news becoming well known.

 

They're in SoH green for the most part, and I have a nice little bit of fluff about the whole Eye of Horus emblem too in mind.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

"How do they look at things to see themselves as the good guys?"

 

This a crucial point. Nobody chooses to be a 'bad guy'. They generally have what we might consider a flawed set of criteria for determining what is good or in the case of a few such as the Night Lords may have just lost sight of the concept altogether.

 

I think that the Heresy is actually a great opportunity for iconoclastic characters to shine, just don't make them too successful pre-Heresy. Without the Heresy characters like Alexis Pollux and Remus Ventanus may have had long careers being seen as solid but not exceptional. Aeonid Thiel was a dangerous maverick who would probably have been banished to some obscure distant garrison posting but because of Calth he is now a close personal friend of his Primarch, granted a significant command and the Primarch's personal favour.

 

In a similar way I can see that a Salamander centurion seen as too ruthless could rise because this war requires a new expediency. A terran White Scar seen as plodding by his own legion might now be seen by Imperial Fists allies as a dependable man amongst a host of mercurial savages.

 

To players who want to play traitor legion forces as loyalists, does the side they fight on really matter to you or is it their motivations?

 

If it's motivation then you can still play traitor forces. For example, during the Davin compliance your company was serving alongside an expeditionary fleet of the Imperial Fists.They had been honoured with this duty because the Warmaster was concerned that the proud Fists may not accept that he had been promoted above their own beloved Primarch.

 

Upon hearing news of the near death of Horus, your commander longs to set off to rendezvous with the main body of the Legion but he is an officer and has his orders.

 

When the Fists betray and attack them the company fights clear and makes for a rendezvous with the Legion at Isstvan. Upon arrival they learn that the situation is far worse than they could have imagined. Dorn has dispatched muliple legions to overthrow the Warmaster. The Warmaster has been forced to purge the ranks of his own legion.

 

Your force valiantly joins the effort to defend Isstvan 5 and afterwards fight your way back to Terra to end this schism once and for all.

 

If you do have loyalists then don't make them too good. I love the idea that upon hearing the news of Horus's treachery your company captain displays exactly the same ruthlessness and purges those in his own ranks of anyone he suspects would choose Horus over the Emperor.

[StoneSentinels]

As mentioned before, an easy way to create a solid but not popular leader is have them excel at something the legion frowns upon. A technically minded III captain who thinks perfection isn't the end game and actually slow and steady wins the race. A World eater for whom the nails encouraged speed rather than blood. A weakly blank thousand son. They really would be disliked! But that could still mean they are a competent leader. Just not always included in the primarchs plans. They may feel deliberately shunned. Maybe they feel that they were always placed in the wrong legion like the character in Scars. The list continues. I know I'm not a regular here but I really enjoy reading everything people post and actually I like having my own feelings about certain legions challenged and if its a good idea written badly that is worthy of help, not derision.

[Kriegriss]

Instead of coming up with reasons why one side or the other can be a compelling army the sub-forum as a whole needs to quit around with made up legions, rules questions, and legion circle jerks and start stepping up their story game to match JackDaw, Apologist, Hyaenidae, and the other few that lead our sub-forum in quality.

You do realize how condescending it is to tell people who value aspects of the hobby differently that they need to conform to what you like? I specifically fail to see how questions about rules devalues a sub forum that focuses on a very specific set of rules to play the game...

here here

I enjoy this forum and as a relative newcomer to the heresy I have come to depend on the generosity of some in clarifying rules and the scope of the 30k that let's you take you're favourite legion and do anything with it I mean I know in cannon the the Fists where loyal as far as we know to a man but if I wanna play a few games where a centurion is misinformed and ends up fighting alongside traitors makes a fun narrative for a 2 or 3 battle campaign and I wanna post about it I feel confident that it will be safe to post here and just have fun with it

whether I agree with people's ideas (and I feel that many are not in line with my view of 30k) this is not the place to belittle others remember it's a hobby it's for fun

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Instead of coming up with reasons why one side or the other can be a compelling army the sub-forum as a whole needs to quit around with made up legions, rules questions, and legion circle jerks and start stepping up their story game to match JackDaw, Apologist, Hyaenidae, and the other few that lead our sub-forum in quality.

You do realize how condescending it is to tell people who value aspects of the hobby differently that they need to conform to what you like? I specifically fail to see how questions about rules devalues a sub forum that focuses on a very specific set of rules to play the game...

I have to agree with SkimaskMohawk on this point and Rohr and others agreeing with him need to take a step back and cool off. Destructive criticism, or such disguised as a tersely worded attempt at 'help', is something I will not tolerate. As others have mentioned, everyone has a different skill set and we won't all excel in the same areas, be it modeling, painting, or writing up stories to go along with our beloved little toy soldiers.

I won't begrudge someone for trying to enhance their enjoyment of the hobby with writing something up for the chosen army, but if it's something I don't care for, I just leave it alone. If you come across a TV show you don't like, do you immediately phone your Congressman and bitch about it? I hope not. I just change the channel and move on. Now, if someone wants to ask for help with their writing or background ideas, I'd be more than happy to help and I fully support a thread like this, but do not let me catch someone saying 'that's unoriginal and you suck'. We're all hobbyists here and I can count on one hand the number of professional writers I know of on this board, so the quicker that realization catches on, the better.

We're here to help people. Clean it up and be nice.

[Marshal Rohr]

Instead of coming up with reasons why one side or the other can be a compelling army the sub-forum as a whole needs to quit around with made up legions, rules questions, and legion circle jerks and start stepping up their story game to match JackDaw, Apologist, Hyaenidae, and the other few that lead our sub-forum in quality.

You do realize how condescending it is to tell people who value aspects of the hobby differently that they need to conform to what you like? I specifically fail to see how questions about rules devalues a sub forum that focuses on a very specific set of rules to play the game...

But no one :cuss said that, bro Montana. We aren't saying 'The forum shall be X'. We are sick and tired of the same topics and the same arguments and the same tired old tropes. It isn't condascending to want people to do their best.

[DuskRaider]

I don't think asking folks who are making up Legions to take it elsewhere is unreasonable. I honestly don't care how anyone writes the fluff of their Legions, not everyone is Ernest Hemmingway. I just got a bit perplexed with the situation where nothing but fake Legions were being posted for over a week in here. Again, I have no problem with them making up their own version of the Heresy, it's their hobby and they can play however they like, I just don't think it belongs here. Just like the Dornian Heresy threads that started in this part of the forum that were nuked from orbit. Can't allow one and forbid another.