Reasons to join the Warmaster

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Let me make this really clear to everyone right now: What belongs in this forum and what doesn't is not your determination to make.

 

All of the AoD mods brought the topic of the Lost Legions stuff up to the rest of the mods and admins and a decision was made that any II or XI Legion threads that operated inside the existing canon of the FW Heresy-verse would remain here in the Age of Darkness. Any of the alternate Heresy threads that did not conform to the official canon were moved to special projects. That's straight from the top of the chain, so if you don't like the II and XI Legion threads that stay here, that's a personal problem of yours that we don't need to hear about.

 

And yes, Marshal Rohr, it actually is condescending to tell people they need to step up their game and start producing material more like your list of favorites. As for the same topics and arguments coming up over and over, welcome to the internet. I thought you'd be used to it by now.

 

I see any more posts ignoring what I said in my last mod post or this one, I'm killing them without warning or mercy.

[Balthamal]

If any of that is aimed at me in particular feel free to PM me and I'll be happy to discuss it without derailing the thread

[depthcharge12]

Hmm my first legion chapter seemingly disappeared during the heresy, which made it easy for me. I had so much to write about, but the things I hate are large blocks of text, so I didn't want to put everyone through that. I'd feel at odds writing about two legions fighting one another, because it might seem that my force would be too OP in the story.

 

There's not enough room to express what I want, I don't have the skill that Hyaenidae has about writing shorts, but I'm always open to suggestions.

 

As for my XVth legion guys, I have no clue where I stand with them. I don't want to be cliche, but then again I don't want special snowflakes. That's what makes good writing so hard.

 

I'm glad that people love to express themselves through their legions, however that may be. I don't think it's up to me to criticize them.

 

That being said, I think the Brotherhood of the lost was an ingenuitve way to wrangle up the lost legions people created and put them together in a different scenario. Props off to Simison for directing the whole thing.

 

I look forward to all the current members putting out new stuff, especially when all the legions are released :) let's keep rowing in the same direction gentlemen (and ladies) lest we dash ourselves upon the rocks in this fine ship of ours.

[jimbo13]

Hmm my first legion chapter seemingly disappeared during the heresy, which made it easy for me. I had so much to write about, but the things I hate are large blocks of text, so I didn't want to put everyone through that. I'd feel at odds writing about two legions fighting one another, because it might seem that my force would be too OP in the story.

 

There's not enough room to express what I want, I don't have the skill that Hyaenidae has about writing shorts, but I'm always open to suggestions.

 

As for my XVth legion guys, I have no clue where I stand with them. I don't want to be cliche, but then again I don't want special snowflakes. That's what makes good writing so hard.

 

I'm glad that people love to express themselves through their legions, however that may be. I don't think it's up to me to criticize them.

 

That being said, I think the Brotherhood of the lost was an ingenuitve way to wrangle up the lost legions people created and put them together in a different scenario. Props off to Simison for directing the whole thing.

 

I look forward to all the current members putting out new stuff, especially when all the legions are released :) let's keep rowing in the same direction gentlemen (and ladies) lest we dash ourselves upon the rocks in this fine ship of ours.

True that. They will always be special snowflakes in your heart :-) (seriously though, makes the hobby better)

[geordie]

A thought just occurred to me further to my earlier post about certain Legions getting a bullet in the back of the head rather than a pat on the back at the conclusion of the Great Crusade (and that being as good a reason to rebel as any.)

 

Konrad Curze is said to have had foresight of his own demise. He foresaw his Father sending someone to kill him. But was this vision always played out during the events of the Heresy or was it actually a vision of what would happen once the Great Crusade was completed? The events of the Heresy merely brought forward the execution?

 

His nights were haunted by his visions of what would come to pass. Now all we need for him is a nickname...

[Daemon2027]

A thought just occurred to me further to my earlier post about certain Legions getting a bullet in the back of the head rather than a pat on the back at the conclusion of the Great Crusade (and that being as good a reason to rebel as any.)

 

Konrad Curze is said to have had foresight of his own demise. He foresaw his Father sending someone to kill him. But was this vision always played out during the events of the Heresy or was it actually a vision of what would happen once the Great Crusade was completed? The events of the Heresy merely brought forward the execution?

 

His nights were haunted by his visions of what would come to pass. Now all we need for him is a nickname...

I doubt he knew when the vision was. I'm not sure, I might be wrong, but I don't think he knew the exact details of the heresy, prophecy is not an exact art. It's a classic self fulfilling prophecy. He was killed because he rebelled. He rebelled because he knew he would be killed.

[geordie]

How many Primarchs and by extension their Legions would be for the chopping block at the successful completion of the Great Crusade?

 

Many Legions had their flaws, the Night Lords as an example were a terrible weapon to be unleashed but they had their uses. The World Eaters are another example. What would their fate be if the hypothetical happened, no Heresy and the Galaxy is conquered?

 

It wasn't just the 'traitor' Legions who might have been on thin ice come the end of the Great Crusade either. The Blood Angels, genetically flawed, much like the not so recently deceased Thunder Warriors, prone to psychosis wasn't it? Add to that a mutant Primarch. If anyone has seen the Bond movie Moonraker it plays on the same theme with Jaws and his place in the Utopia he's helping to create before then ultimately realizing he'll have no place in.

 

How would most Legions respond when being told to report to the gallows? I find it difficult to believe even a staunchly loyal Primarch/Legion would just accept that as their fate.

[Balthamal]

I think the Night Lords would have been useful. Whether they were more reliable than the VI Legion with whom they would share a similar function is another matter.

 

Sanguinius too I feel would have stuck around. As Horus opines, he had the strength to carry the imperium to victory and the wisdom to rule thereafter.

 

As for The Emperor and his plans that could ensure or erode loyalty to Him, that's made on one massive assumption: That the Emperor is immortal and intended to stay that way. What if the Emperor was tired of it all? What if he was doing things so he finally call it quits?

[Daemon2027]

Imagine if the Imperium could throw the likes of the World Eater, Thousand Sonand Death Guard Legions at the Tyranids. Psychopathic killing machines, powerful synapisis destroying psyches and Chem warfare experts who could deploy weapons that targets bio life forms. And you would still have the unrelentless Iron Warriors, tacical Sons of Horus, genestealer cult hunting Alpha Legion and more in reserve. And all those loyalist chapters, would be Legion to.

Creating an Empire isn't the end of the war, it's just the start of keeping it.

[geordie]

Creating an Empire isn't the end of the war, it's just the start of keeping it.

 

I like that. I certainly agree that there would be some benefit to keeping the Legions as a defensive force after the conclusion of the great crusade. I'm just trying to play devils advocate here. It's one of the biggest draws to the 40k/30k background. The grey areas, the areas open to interpretation. The 'everything is a lie.'

 

Like I say, playing devils advocate, would the Thunder Warriors have not been useful to keep around after the Unification Wars? Sure they'd be handy in a scrap against pretty much anything. If they're a bit unhinged just let them fight themselves out, let them have a warriors death, fighting the enemies of mankind.

 

A bit of background to my army and why they joined the Warmaster was that some of the oldest members of the Legion fought in the Unification Wars. They didn't like what happened to their allies, a bit unhinged or not, they fought and died together. What right did the Emperor have to put those that bled for him to the sword? This bitter undercurrent, this sense of injustice, this resentment ran through the Legionnaires that were there. The feeling that they were just tools to be cast aside once used remained.

 

It's interesting that among fans of the 40k/30k universe peoples thoughts on the Emperor differ. Some of the more recent background written examines the darker side of things. It's started to erode the perfect character the Emperor used to be. There's the viewpoint introduced that he is a Tyrant just the same as those he overthrows. Everything he does is it for the good of humanity or the good of himself?

 

If you ask for reasons to join the Warmaster you're also asking for reasons not to follow the Emperor. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Master of Mankind will paint the emperors motives in thoroughly ambiguous wording that will make him either the savior of mankind or a despot intent on ruling it for eternity.

[Kol Saresk]

A thought just occurred to me further to my earlier post about certain Legions getting a bullet in the back of the head rather than a pat on the back at the conclusion of the Great Crusade (and that being as good a reason to rebel as any.)

 

Konrad Curze is said to have had foresight of his own demise. He foresaw his Father sending someone to kill him. But was this vision always played out during the events of the Heresy or was it actually a vision of what would happen once the Great Crusade was completed? The events of the Heresy merely brought forward the execution?

 

His nights were haunted by his visions of what would come to pass. Now all we need for him is a nickname...

Well there was no date specifically mentioned before so when Unremembered Empire was written, Dan Abnett introduced the idea that Curze determined the viability of a course of action based on whether or not he thought "it was his time".

 

Which is something worth noting because it also introduces the idea that Curze's vision only told him that he would be killed by a follow of the Emperor, but not the how or who until later on.

[DuskRaider]

There are some Legions that would have definitely been sent to the crusher, as it were. Night Lords, World Eaters.. perhaps to some extent, White Scars (as they were not trusted until they stepped up to the plate in the Heresy), probably Word Bearers... although the issue is, I can't see threats ever ceasing in the universe because the Orks aren't going anywhere, the Tyranids are just around the corner, and the Necron are occasionally waking up and causing a headache wherever they go. I can't imagine the Emperor saying, "Alright, everything's cool... no more threats ever... later guys".

[m_r_parker]

I like the possibilities within this thread, and there's some thoughtful posts here which have triggered my imagination.

 

I've always been interested in how the Imperial Fists fared during the period between the Isstvan conflict becoming common knowledge, and the inevitable siege of Terra. From what we know of the timeline, there's a few years between those two events but the Fists were recalled to the heart of the Imperium for a time before the Warmasters treachery. There comes a point where even the greatest soldier will start to resent what started as a great honour for the Legion until it becomes the embodiment of their own rebellion.

 

Take into consideration a young Imperial Fists Captain who was promoted just prior to the end of the Ullanor campaign, and before the recall order to Terra. As part of his training he was identified as having a keen offensive mind and flagged for eventual progression under Sigismund in the Templar order within the Legion. His record has been coloured by a few incidents where he has made 'interpretations' of orders to enable a more direct offensive strategy, rather than the directed defensive strategy constructed by his superiors.

After the atrocity on Isstvan this captain has been sent as part of missions to quell unrest on Mars, minor conflicts around some of the other planets in the Sol system, and interception of numerous craft heading towards Terra from outside the solar system. During his time on Terra assisting in the construction of defensive positions and reinforcing the palace walls he was observed by many both within and outside of the Legion as dismissive of his duties, obstinate towards his superior officers, and openly talking dissent to those under his direct command. Part of his misgivings around the defensive strategy was a complete lack of offensive capability, and simply preparing for an attack by the Warmaster that, in his eyes, could be prevented from reaching the Sol System. As the time from the Isstvan event grew on, with the rumour-mill on the homeworld going into overdrive about events and campaigns which they are not part of, the Captain became more and more agitated about the lack of offensive strategy and starts to become paranoid about the command structure above him. In discussion with other Legion captains and commanders he is often observed asking about the Emperor and whether anyone in the Legion has seen Him over the past months. When asked why he is so interested on sightings of the Emperor, the Captain pulls away, usually muttering that should the defence of the palace be so imperative then perhaps the Emperor himself should participate in some of it's planning, rather than leaving it in the hands of those that should be engaging with the Warmaster. In one particularly heated incident with Rogal Dorn around the merits of defensive planning outside of the main palace walls, the Captain called out for a more detailed plan around a series of pre-emptive assaults on the Warmasters forces outside of the Sol System, to which the Primarch 'insisted' he follow orders lest he find his command taken away. It was noted after the meeting in the Primarchs personal log that the strain of confidentiality on aspects of the defensive and counter-offensive strategies were taking a toll across all of the command structure, and that he would petition the Sigillite to allow more details to be provided to high ranking officers. This was rejected outright by Malcador, based on security concerns and the infiltration of traitorous elements already on Terra.

As the months go on by, the Captain falls further into paranoia and dissent. He starts making claims that the Emperor is no longer on Terra, and that this is because even the Emperor knows that the Warmaster cannot be stopped should he reach the homeworld. He volunteers himself and those under his command for increased rotations into perimeter patrols, which the Primarch agrees to to prevent the Captains increasingly sour nature from infecting those outside of his command. Eventually, after a prolonged incident chasing down a ship believed to be smuggling traitor Astartes from the Alpha Legion towards Mars, the Captain decides to take his fate in his own hands. with a number of his most trusted brothers he commandeers a Battle Barge and heads out from Sol towards the last reported appearance of the main Sons of Horus fleet. Records do not list the eventual fate of this company.

 

How would you view this Captain? Would he be considered a traitor, a loyalist, or something else? Ultimately he's driven towards the protection of the Imperium and fighting the Warmaster, but cannot bring himself to do this in the manner as laid down by his Primarch and commanding officers. He's abandoned his post, but has done it for what he believes to be the right reason. At best he's a Renegade, as I can't imagine he could realistically be brought back into the Legion and would be, at best, incarcerated. In his eyes, seeing that choice, he would be best serving the Imperium by not coming back into the fold as this is the only way for his forces to count towards the forces of the Warmaster. 

Whilst the traitor Legions tend to get the more interesting choices and conflicts around where their loyalties are, I think the loyalists (especially Legions like the Imperial Fists) will find topics like isolation, confusion, and paranoia to be an increasingly potent development arc as the timeline carries on to the Siege of Terra. 

[Inquisitor Kravin]

That's a great way to create "renegade" Fists that is based on rather than counter to their famous stubbornness and zeal. I like it.

 

Regarding Night Haunter. The Dark King does not contain a date but I believe that other sources have dated the events described to about forty years pre-Isstvan.

 

In the story Curze deals out the tarot as he has done "night after night" but no matter how much he shuffles them the result is always the same. I can't recall the exact description but the reading is that the Emperor will be the cause of his death but he clearly doesn't know exactly why or how.

[The Eponymous M]

I had been considering how to justify a renegade Imperial Fists force. The idea of ond of the traditional stalwarts of the defence of Terra having a wavering loyalty does seem an interesting concept. My initial thoughts would be:

 

A company left behind garrisoning some less than glamorous chunk of rock that are not recalled to Terra to act as Praetorians. This leaves them somewhat bitter and open to the sway of the newly arrived Chaplain from the Word Bearers who turns the more junior officers against the garrison commander, by convincing them that they have not been seen worthy enough to protect Terra.

 

A captain, dissatisfied with being recalled to Terra to stand atop a wall when he feels there is still a Galaxy to be conquered feels that only a leader as driven as Horus can bring the galaxy under Imperial yoke. He feels that as Dorn was not installed as Warmaster he must be flawed in some way. When news of Isstavan breaks, his loyalty to the Legion conflicts with his personal "hero worship" of the Warmaster. Whether this would cause him to take a ship to join the Warmaster is, perhaps, unlikely; but would it be sufficient for him to not fire upon a Sons of Horus ship or to "misinterpret" an order?

 

Having read most of the current books, I'm still a little unsure as to how strong the cult of personality around Horus was; my inital thoughts were that Horus seemed to have the ability to leave most Astartes in awe, even more so than their own Primarch. I do wonder then, perhaps, if a degree of disaffection with their own Primarch modus operandi (Iron Warriors assault marines, Raven Guard artillery officers...) might have felt somewhat more open to a leader that was seen to be more rounded in his approach as somehow superior to his own.

 

However, I am also minded that the majority of marines seemed to follow their Primarch even knowing that they are flawed. Upon reflection, this doesn't seem to occur so much h in the loyalist legions; they seem to see their respective Primarchs as worth following (excepting, perhaps, Corax and the Predation Fleets), yet these Primarchs seem to be as flawed in different aspects.

[Mazryonh]

I've said it before, but it bears repeating.  Those in the traitor legions who served well under the Emperor before the Primarchs would have more reason than most to stay with the Emperor than throw their lots in with the traitor Primarchs. I can see the following scene happening:

 

Interrogator: Why have you come before the Emperor's judgement, Word Bearer and traitor?

 

Word Bearer: I am no disciple of Lorgar.  I served under His Divine Oversight long before the Traitor of Colchis joined our ranks.  I was an Imperial Herald, and I remain the Emperor's Herald, not Lorgar's.  My gene-father is no longer worthy to call himself His son, so I have returned to the one worthy of my devotion.