Mind Worm vs. RP

[HandofAnubis]

So last night kicked off my first game in a very very long time. It took forever to get setup and get through turn 1(well most of T1 lol). Now, on the 2nd half of turn 1 I cast Mind worm on his HQ, which is a necron lord. I made the hit and the wound with MW and then begain the argument. I told him he woiuld have to suffer the negative effects of MW even if he made his Reanimation Protocol. Since both MW and RP come into play because an unsaved wound I told him he could save the wound but the effects of MW would still be in effect. He argued that sine RP states that you discount the wound, it is like the wound never happened. I told him that it is funny that RP goes offbecause of an unsaved wound, which is exactly how MW comes into play. I told him RP cannot go back in time and negate the effects, it can only negate the wound.

 

What do you all think? How should this be resolved?

[SvenONE]

Probably should be in rules forum, but I dont think Reanimation Protocol is a saving throw, so I dont think it can technically save an unsaved wound. It merely nullifies losing the wound. Theres a much similar discussion regarding the bombing run and FNP.

 

It's obviously something GW didnt catch in their "playtest" of the codex, and its no surprise this hasnt come up before since Mind Worm has been such an abysmal ability in the past.

[march10k]

The same event that triggered RP triggered MW...RP allows him to discount the loss of the wound, but that's not the same as going back in time to erase the event "unsaved wound" that triggered RP in the first place.  That would put the necron player in a logical paradox similar to going back in time and fathering oneself...his brains would leak out through his ears and you'd be left without an opponent as he lies gibbering on the floor.

 

Seriously, though, RP allows him to avoid deducting a wound from his profile, in effect causing instant healing (same thing with FNP), it doesn't cause the wound never to have been inflicted in the first place.  The effects of MW take effect!

[aura_enchanted]

id say that as long as he isnt coming back from off the reserves bench or being removed as a casuality and then returning to the table mind worm is very explicit on the matter he has it for the rest of the game. end discussion, end debate.

 

if he wants to argue further then demand to get slay the warlord (STWL) as compensation for this ruling being overturned for his convenience because by his logic you should be awarded STWL because the model technically died and technically was a casualty before coming back to the table. at which point he will either cough up the victory point or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZJpe6uQhjo

 

if it is used against a character and it doesnt count towards the unit being completely killed off (or you werent playing for kill points anyway). then id probably roll a D6 on the matter if he doesnt accept the fact that he still has mind worm.

 

also its taken as a FNP save of sort and therefore the wound still happened he just got the wound back

[march10k]

I wouldn't go for a D6 roll-off.  I don't think he's being malicious (maybe selfish/greedy/WAAC, but not malicious), but a roll-off doesn't convince anyone of anything, you need a permanent resolution to the question, and one that's based on truth, not luck!

[Wraith776]

There is quite a large discussion in the Official Rules section if you want to feel the general feeling how the ruling. It's about the stasis bomb and FNP but the argument is exactly the same. 

[aura_enchanted]

I wouldn't go for a D6 roll-off.  I don't think he's being malicious (maybe selfish/greedy/WAAC, but not malicious), but a roll-off doesn't convince anyone of anything, you need a permanent resolution to the question, and one that's based on truth, not luck!

the dice gods find your lack of faith disturbing....

[shabbadoo]

So last night kicked off my first game in a very very long time. It took forever to get setup and get through turn 1(well most of T1 lol). Now, on the 2nd half of turn 1 I cast Mind worm on his HQ, which is a necron lord. I made the hit and the wound with MW and then begain the argument. I told him he woiuld have to suffer the negative effects of MW even if he made his Reanimation Protocol. Since both MW and RP come into play because an unsaved wound I told him he could save the wound but the effects of MW would still be in effect. He argued that sine RP states that you discount the wound, it is like the wound never happened. I told him that it is funny that RP goes offbecause of an unsaved wound, which is exactly how MW comes into play. I told him RP cannot go back in time and negate the effects, it can only negate the wound.

What do you all think? How should this be resolved?

You were wrong.

The additional effects of Mind Worm are dependent upon a wound having been suffered, meaning that a wound was actually removed from the model. Reanimation Protocols (and Feel No Pain for that matter) completely avoid the wound to begin with. This isn't old style Reanimation Protocols where the wound is actually suffered, but then regained later on (which is now what the "It Will Not Die" special rule does, and models with this rule WILL suffer the addtiaonal effects of Mind Worm)- the wound is not suffered, it is avoided altogether. As the wound never happened, it being complety avoided, no additional Mind Worm effects take place. People read the whole "...treat it as being saved." (i.e. meaning your attack did nothing, NOTHING, to the enemy model) bit in both Feel No Pain and Reanimation Protcols...and yet there is still the inevitable "But I wounded the model..." No, you did NOT wound the model, because it has a special rule which basically tells your wound "Sod off, you bloody :cuss!" For Mind Worm to work as people are arguing, the rules for both would have to state, "Regardless of whether a wound is suffered, apply the following additional effects to all models that were hit." Neither of them do.

So, your opponent was perfectly correct in telling you that your Mind Worm power, which wounded NOTHING, got to do NOTHING further. So, suck it up and accept that units with the Reanimation Protocols or Feel No Pain rules actually have an extra level of defense against one of our (and those of many others) unique attack forms.

And so we very respectfully shoot such units in the face with a weapon which...SHOCK AND AMAZEMENT!!!...ignores both of these special rules- the rift cannon.

[Wraith776]

Like I've already said, this has been covered in the official rules section already. Theres no point continuing this here and bringing up the same points.

[HandofAnubis]

So last night kicked off my first game in a very very long time. It took forever to get setup and get through turn 1(well most of T1 lol). Now, on the 2nd half of turn 1 I cast Mind worm on his HQ, which is a necron lord. I made the hit and the wound with MW and then begain the argument. I told him he woiuld have to suffer the negative effects of MW even if he made his Reanimation Protocol. Since both MW and RP come into play because an unsaved wound I told him he could save the wound but the effects of MW would still be in effect. He argued that sine RP states that you discount the wound, it is like the wound never happened. I told him that it is funny that RP goes offbecause of an unsaved wound, which is exactly how MW comes into play. I told him RP cannot go back in time and negate the effects, it can only negate the wound.

What do you all think? How should this be resolved?

You were wrong.

The additional effects of Mind Worm (and stasis attacks) are dependent upon a wound having been suffered, meaning that a wound was actually removed from the model. Reanimation Protocols (and Feel No Pain for that matter) completely avoid the wound to begin with. This isn't old style Reanimation Protocols where the wound is actually suffered, but then regained later on (which is now what the "It Will Not Die" special rule does, and models with this rule WILL suffer the addtiaonal effects of both stasis attacks and Mind Worm)- the wound is not suffered, it is avoided altogether. As the wound never happened, it being complety avoided, no additional Mind Worm effects take place. People read the whole "...treat it as being saved." (i.e. meaning your attack did nothing, NOTHING, to the enemy model) bit in both Feel No Pain and Reanimation Protcols...and yet there is still the inevitable "But I wounded the model..." No, you did NOT wound the model, because it has a special rule which basically tells your wound "Sod off, you bloody :cuss!" For Mind Worm (and stasis attacks) to work as people are arguing, the rules for both would have to state, "Regardless of whether a wound is suffered, apply the following additional effects to all models that were hit." Neither of them do.

So, your opponent was perfectly correct in telling you that your Mind Worm power, which wounded NOTHING, got to do NOTHING further. So, suck it up and accept that units with the Reanimation Protocols or Feel No Pain rules actually have an extra level of defense against two of our (and those of many others) unique attack forms.

And so we very respectfully shoot such units in the face with a weapon which...SHOCK AND AMAZEMENT!!!...ignores both of these special rules- the rift cannon.

Thanks for the input all. I was trying to find the Stasis Bomb vs FnP thread again as I had read that before we played. And I apologize if I placed this in the wrong section, I will work on making sure I post in the correct places. I have been lurkring on this forum for a while, but only started really posting just recently.

And Shabadoo while I dont agree with you, I do appreciate your point of view and the reccomendation about the rift cannon

[Blank05]

Just a note, there is precedence for this. The Dark Elder and their Shadow field. The most recent FAQ stated that even if FNP discounts the wound, the Shadow field still shorts out.

 

While I know that for it to be official it would have to be in OUR FAQ, but at least it's something to give insight into the FAQ team's(if there is one anymore) mindset.

[march10k]

 

 No, you did NOT wound the model, 

 

If I didn't wound the model, then what triggered RP?

 

/edit/

 

I do agree that the mechanism is different for the VSA, though...there are two separate effects...one operates off of hits, the other is triggered by unsaved wounds.  The effect that removes models from play if they fail their test functions EXACTLY the same way as mind worm.  RP and VSA/MW are triggered simultaneously, by the same event, and both should be resolved.  There is no rule saying "if the wound is later regained, void the lost stats" in the MW rules, so I see no reason why "oh, but I voided the lost wound" should mean anything at all.  The effect of mind worm that guts the opposing model's statline was triggered.  RP doesn't preempt this, since both are triggered by the same event.  There is no text saying "these statline losses are only valid so long as the model is wounded," either.  The loss of the stats is not contingent on the wound, it's contingent on the failed save.

[shabbadoo]

 

 No, you did NOT wound the model, 

If I didn't wound the model, then what triggered RP?

It doesn't refer to only successfully rolling to wound a model, but to the tnerir process of successfully rolling to wound a model, the wound passing through all of the model's defenses, and actually removing a wound from the model.  I assume you know that a model actually takes the wound at the end of the entire process

 

 

 

There is no rule saying "if the wound is later regained, void the lost stats" in the MW rules, so I see no reason why "oh, but I voided the lost wound" should mean anything at all.

And yet it does, because the wound was never removed - ever - it was saved.  The wound never gets to the point of being removed from the model, as it is simply ignored. What you are arguing would be true for It Will No Die, which can regain a wound that was literally removed from the model's stats, but this is not the case for RP or FNP which both completely ignore the removal of the wound from the stat line in the first place.   These are two very different circumstances, just as are successfully wounding a model (after which saves and special rules may be use to prevent the wowund)  and a model actually suffering a wound (which happens after saves and special rules have failed to protect the model).

 

Also, the shadow field was FAQ'd to be in line with how it worked before, meaning if one fails the shadow field roll of 2+, ever, it goes away.  The latest version of the shadow field rules wouldn't have it working as intended in conjunction with the rules for FNP, and so they corrected it.  This definitley doesn't set a precedent of any kind; it just shows that the authors screwed up, and also that they think a 2++ is damn good in its own right, the shadow field shouldn't function any different than before in any situation, and certainly didn't need any further help due to a lapse in their rules writing.

[Hidicul]

If the wording on RP is in line with FNP then mind worm won't trigger. FNP states that "If a model suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special FNP roll to avoid being wounded." To me that says that though it triggers on an unsaved wound, the wound isn't actually applied until after the FNP roll. That sucks cuz I'd love for it to read otherwise

[Wraith776]

You see the debate is that those are the exact words already under MW and VSA. So both are technically triggered at the same time and RAW should be resolved simultaneously. Of course some agree with this and others do not.

[shabbadoo]

The only things in the entirety of the game that are handled simultaneously are close combat attacks at the same Initiative value, and the awarding of VPs to both players when their units wipe each other out simulatneously, such as can happen when two opposing untis with the same Initiative values can kill each off other close combat. That. Is. It. There are no simultaneous rules anywhere else. Period.

Mind Worm is dependent upon not successfully wounding a model, but upon a model suffering an unsaved wound (i.e. the model's armor save/invulnerable save/Feel No Pain/ Reanimation Protocols fail to pretoect it). Simple as that. The counter-argument has not a leg to stand on, and opens up a whole array of B.S., like force weapons that may not actually have caused a wound, but that will still Instant Death the target model anyways (because it happened after the dealing-saving of the wound according to the counter-argument, as it has the EXACT same wording you counter-argument people are using), but we all very much know force weapons do not work that way (or do people now want to argue that force weapons do work that way, because that is just one item in the can of worms people are opening up if they insist on keeping on this path). There is not a single thing, anywhere, which backs up the assertion that the additional effects still take place even if the Feel No Pain/ Ranimation Protocols roll is made, and everything which points to the contrary. The wording of the rules really tell us everything we need to know.

"If a model suffers any unaved wounds from Mind Worm, its...." The language is not exactly convoluted/confusiing; in fact is it beyond utterly clear. And the "...treat it as being saved." bit from both Feel No Pain and Reanimation Protocols is likewise not exactly convoluted/confusing, and is in fact also beyond utterly clear. Now, I know this is akin to seeing a saquatch for the first time for some people, but here we have an instance where the terminology used in all of the rules in question coincides PERFECTLY. So, GW nails these rules DEAD ON, and people still can't see the forest for the trees. As the saying goes, "This is why we can't have nice things." Was the wound unsaved, and therefor suffered? No, it was NOT. It WAS saved...by Feel No Pain/Reanimation Protocols...so there is no additional effect from the attack form, as it is dependent upon the wound being unsaved and therefore suffered. If we want to look for precedent of any kind, we look at how other attack forms are handled with regard to these special rules. Attack forms which bypass either of these special rules specifically mention that they do so (see Feel No Pain and weapons that cause Instant Death, and Reanimation Protocols and D weapons for ecamples of this). As Mind Worm does not specifically mention that it bypasses either Feel No Pain or Reanimation Protocols, it does NOT ignore these special rules. So, for Mind Worm, it is an all-or-nothing thing: wound + effect, or nothing at all.

EDIT: OOPS!!! I needed to edit out the stasis attacks bits. Now see, stasis/rad grenades, and the non-"suffer a wound' bit of vast stasis anomally, merely need to HIT a unit for their additional effects to be triggered. Feel No Pain and Reanimation Protocols do NOTHING against those affects, though they do protect against suffering wounds and therefore from triggering the Initiative test/removed from play aspect of vast stasis anomally. I don't want there to be any confusion between the two (in my mind or anyone ele's).

[Wraith776]

I admit Shabbadoo you have a point there, there instant death part was never mentioned in the previous debate. But please don't start attacking people just because they have a different opinion...

[shabbadoo]

That's about as attacking as I'll get. Did some editing, and thanks for your indulgence. Also the force wpon/instnt deththing is just one eample of this counter-argument being utterly wrong.f Just off the top of my head, Pinning is another thing. Well, anything that is dependent upon a wound being suffered would be affected by the counter-armgument. For example:

"I wounded you unit, so you have to make a Pinning check. Sorry, it doesn't matter if you made Feel No Pain/Reanimation Protocols rolls and so counted the wounds as saved, because the Pinning effect happens simultaneously. So, your unit has to make a Pinning check...even though your unit did not actually suffer any unsaved wounds at all."

I could add more examples, but I am pretty sure you guys don't think Force or Pinning weapons work that way, and so, hopefully, you will look at the counter-argument and realise that it is the exact same situation, and therefore Mind Worm and the "suffer an unsaved wound" dependent effect of vast stasis anomally do not work that way either. It is all right there, if you look for it. What is not there is anything supporting the counter-argument.

[HandofAnubis]

I can kinda see what you are saying with the Force weapon, except that RP addresses that specifically by stating that Instant Death applies a negative modifier to the RP instead of instant death occuring as it normally would. This would also mean that what ever causes ID happens before RP (causing the negative modifier)  so the same should be accounted for with MW and VSA...

[march10k]

The only things in the entirety of the game that are handled simultaneously are close combat attacks at the same Initiative value, and the awarding of VPs to both players when their units wipe each other out simulatneously, such as can happen when two opposing untis with the same Initiative values can kill each off other close combat. That. Is. It. There are no simultaneous rules anywhere else. Period. Not true. If it were, the BRB would not need to suggest that the person whose turn it is resolved his triggered effects first.

Mind Worm is dependent upon not successfully wounding a model, but upon a model suffering an unsaved wound (i.e. the model's armor save/invulnerable save/Feel No Pain/ Reanimation Protocols fail to pretoect it). Simple as that. Not that simple at all. The BRB is very clear about two things. You only get one save, either an armor save, an invulnerable save, or a cover save. Effects like FNP and RP are not saves. If you fail your save, an unsaved wound comes into effect, triggering all maner of wild and wonderful things, including FNP and RP, but also including the nastier effects of MW and VSA. In the case of VSA, a failed test results in removing the model whether or not the FNP test is passed or failed, and in the case of MW, the stat loss is triggered as soon as the unsaved wound is created. Nowhere does it say "unless some other effect allows the victim to ignore the wound," or "unless the victim gets the wound back," or "as long as at the end of the day the wound sticks." If the rules for VSA/MW intended that the victim has to actually have a wound deducted before nasty effects are applied, they should say that. They don't. They say exactly the same thing that FNP and RP say in terms of when/how they are triggered. Hence, both FNP/RP and MW/VSA are triggered at the same time by the same event (the failed save). Or the rules for FNP/RP should say that they preempt anything else that an unsaved wound triggers.

The counter-argument has not a leg to stand on, and opens up a whole array of B.S., like force weapons that may not actually have caused a wound, but that will still Instant Death the target model anyways (because it happened after the dealing-saving of the wound according to the counter-argument, as it has the EXACT same wording you counter-argument people are using), but we all very much know force weapons do not work that way (or do people now want to argue that force weapons do work that way, because that is just one item in the can of worms people are opening up if they insist on keeping on this path). There is not a single thing, anywhere, which backs up the assertion that the additional effects still take place even if the Feel No Pain/ Ranimation Protocols roll is made, and everything which points to the contrary. The wording of the rules really tell us everything we need to know.

Interesting...I haven't run into FNP/RP vs Force in this edition. I'll withhold judgement pending a reading of the rules when I get home, but under the old functioning of force weapons, insta-gibbing via force weapon was an elective action, not an automatic effect triggered by a failed save. In my mind, triggered effects would certainly take precedence over elective actions. However, with the re-casting of force as a psychic power used before swinging the weapon, it becomes an automatic effect just like FNP and the rest. It sounds like you are making a false comparison involving the way that force weapons used to work. With force being completely rewritten as a psychic power that temporarily adds a special rule to a weapon, it's entirely concievable that it works the same way as VSA and MW, insta-gib being triggered simultaneously with FNP/RP...if that's the case, then it's possibly an unintended consequence along the lines of our deathwing sergeants being stuck with power swords last edition when GW monkeyed with rules without thinking through the second and third order effects....although I always did have trouble with FNP defeating force weapons!

"If a model suffers any unaved wounds from Mind Worm, its...." The language is not exactly convoluted/confusiing; in fact is it beyond utterly clear. Agreed. Same with FNP, they are both triggered by the same event, the failed save.

And the "...treat it as being saved." bit from both Feel No Pain and Reanimation Protocols is likewise not exactly convoluted/confusing, and is in fact also beyond utterly clear. Also true. But the effects of VSA and MW have already been triggered, and there is no language about canceling their effects, or any requirement for the wound to remain unsaved in perpetuity. The only way for FNP or RP to retroactively erase the already-triggered effects of things like VSA and MW is for the rule to read "treat is as having been saved." As written, the rule only covers treating the wound as saved for all purposes going forward from the time of succeeding at the FNP or RP test, such as deducting a wound.

Now, I know this is akin to seeing a saquatch for the first time for some people, but here we have an instance where the terminology used in all of the rules in question coincides PERFECTLY. So, GW nails these rules DEAD ON, and people still can't see the forest for the trees. As the saying goes, "This is why we can't have nice things." The jury will disregard Shabby's rudeness.

Was the wound unsaved, and therefor suffered? No, it was NOT. It WAS saved...by Feel No Pain/Reanimation Protocols...so there is no additional effect from the attack form, as it is dependent upon the wound being unsaved and therefore suffered. The problem here is that FNP and RP are not saves. They are effects triggered by the establishment of an unsaved wound...just like the VSA and MW effects in question, and no rule exists that would have us resolve FNP or RP first. Nor does any rule exist which would cause us to cancel any effects triggered prior to the successful FNP/RP test, since neither VSA nor MW is contingent on the model being wounded but rather both are contingent on the same event as that one that triggers FNP/RP, which is the establishement that there exists the condition of an unsaved wound.

If we want to look for precedent of any kind, we look at how other attack forms are handled with regard to these special rules. Attack forms which bypass either of these special rules specifically mention that they do so (see Feel No Pain and weapons that cause Instant Death, and Reanimation Protocols and D weapons for ecamples of this). As Mind Worm does not specifically mention that it bypasses either Feel No Pain or Reanimation Protocols, it does NOT ignore these special rules. So, for Mind Worm, it is an all-or-nothing thing: wound + effect, or nothing at all. Um, no. First of all, your line of reasoning requires a level of consistency across multiple rulebooks by multiple separate authors whose absence GW has in fact amply demonstrated is one of its greatest failings. Second, you are attempting to use absence of evidence as evicence of absence.

EDIT: OOPS!!! I needed to edit out the stasis attacks bits. Now see, stasis/rad grenades, and the non-"suffer a wound' bit of vast stasis anomally, merely need to HIT a unit for their additional effects to be triggered. Feel No Pain and Reanimation Protocols do NOTHING against those affects, though they do protect against suffering wounds and therefore from triggering the Initiative test/removed from play aspect of vast stasis anomally. I don't want there to be any confusion between the two (in my mind or anyone ele's). The confusion is there, though. The initiative test is not triggered by the wound sticking, it is triggered by the same thing that triggers FNP/RP, the unsaved wound. The key here is again that there are only three kinds of saves, and you can only take one save. Fail your save, and you have an unsaved wound. At that moment, both FNP//RP and VSA/MW are triggered, simultaneously. Since both are triggered by the unsaved wound, you can't say that one preempts the other. In the case of VSA, both the FNP/RP and Initiative tests are taken and both effects are applied (unless you accept that the player whose turn it is applies his effect first?), there is nothing in the rules to say that one preempts the other. In the case of MW, the stat-gutting is applied at the same time that the FNP/MW test is taken, and then a successful test would, going forward, not backward, based on the rule not having been written in the past perfect tense, be applied, preventing the loss of a wound and any other effects that happen after the FNP/RP test.

Sorry for the line in-line out writing, but your post was really long, and I wanted to give a complete response.

/edit/

Okay, I'm home now and have had an opportunity to re-read the rules for pinning and force. Force simply gives the weapon the instant death USR. As such, force weapons (with force activated) are included in the text of the FNP rule that lists ID and D weapons as disallowing FNP. You seem to think that because VSA's Initiative test and Mind Worm's stat-gutting effects are not listed in the text of the FNP rule as disallowing FNP, they must therefore allow it. This fails on three counts. First, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Second, D and ID are USRs, while VSA and MW are codex specific. Third, VSA and MW did not yet exist in their present forms at the time that the FNP rule was written, so there would have been no way to include them in the list...or, if they were at least dreamt up, it would have been foolish to list powers in yet-unpublished codexes, given the firestorm that would erupt online!

As for Pinning:

"I wounded you unit, so you have to make a Pinning check. Sorry, it doesn't matter if you made Feel No Pain/Reanimation Protocols rolls and so counted the wounds as saved, because the Pinning effect happens simultaneously. So, your unit has to make a Pinning check...even though your unit did not actually suffer any unsaved wounds at all."

I could add more examples, but I am pretty sure you guys don't think Force or Pinning weapons work that way, and so, hopefully, you will look at the counter-argument and realise that it is the exact same situation, and therefore Mind Worm and the "suffer an unsaved wound" dependent effect of vast stasis anomally do not work that way either. It is all right there, if you look for it. What is not there is anything supporting the counter-argument.

This betrays a complete misunderstanding of pinning. Pinning, as written is completely compatible with my understanding of FNP/RP. At the time at which the condition of a failed wound is established, both pinning and FNP/RP are triggered. But the resolution of pinning is explicitly postponed until after the shooting unit is done firing. As such, if the wound is negated by FNP or RP, this negation happens before pinning is resolved, and since the wound is forever treated as saved from the moment that the FNP/RP test is passed, when the time comes to resolve pinning at the end of the shooting, there is no failed wound, and thus no need to test for pinning (perhaps the cowards saw the man fall, then get up again, marveling that his uplifting primer absorbed the shot?). This stands in stark contrast to the case where VSA/MW are triggered simultaneously with FNP/RP, but their resolution is not postponed. There would be no need to specify that the pin test is delayed if in fact effects like FNP and RP naturally preempted the test.

[Liberame]

Couldn't have said it better myself March 10k. Really hope we can get an agreement on this ruling soon

[shabbadoo]

Maybe I am misinterpreting what your argument is, so to the counter-argument people that say the effects still take place (march10K. Liberame, etc.), is this an accurate portrayal of your point of view?

 

Roll to wound ----> successfully cause wound ----> model fails armor/invulnerable/cover save and suffers an unsaved wound, thereby activating any effect reliant upon suffering an unsaved wound ----> Feel No Pain/Reanimaiton Protocols successfull treats the unsaved wound itself as saved, but the special effect itself still happens.

 

A simple "yes" or "no" answer (accompanied by any corrections laid out in a similar form to what is above if your anwer is "no") will suffice.

[marti350]

Maybe I am misinterpreting what your argument is, so to the counter-argument people that say the effects still take place (march10K. Liberame, etc.), is this an accurate portrayal of your point of view?

 

Roll to wound ----> successfully cause wound ----> model fails armor/invulnerable/cover save and suffers an unsaved wound, thereby activating any effect reliant upon suffering an unsaved wound ----> Feel No Pain/Reanimaiton Protocols successfull treats the unsaved wound itself as saved, but the special effect itself still happens.

 

A simple "yes" or "no" answer (accompanied by any corrections laid out in a similar form to what is above if your anwer is "no") will suffice.

 

I think they'd say yes.

 

However I disagree with them. I think that Mind Worm should resolve after RP. Technically RAW you would get to choose to resolve it first, but I think the intent of the rule is that the wound has to stick. I think this is different than VSA where you can choose to resolve that before RP and if they fail the initiative test they are removed and never get to take the RP

[shabbadoo]

I agree. FNP/RP effectively removes the required condition for the other effects.

This really is the easiest way to reply to this, so see the bits in red immediately following the blue text

The only things in the entirety of the game that are handled simultaneously are close combat attacks at the same Initiative value, and the awarding of VPs to both players when their units wipe each other out simulatneously, such as can happen when two opposing untis with the same Initiative values can kill each off other close combat. That. Is. It. There are no simultaneous rules anywhere else. Period. Not true. If it were, the BRB would not need to suggest that the person whose turn it is resolved his triggered effects first.

you do relaisthat you din't refute anythign I just stated, just stated that somethign is not handled simultaneously, right?

Mind Worm is dependent upon not successfully wounding a model, but upon a model suffering an unsaved wound (i.e. the model's armor save/invulnerable save/Feel No Pain/ Reanimation Protocols fail to pretoect it). Simple as that. Not that simple at all. The BRB is very clear about two things. You only get one save, either an armor save, an invulnerable save, or a cover save. Effects like FNP and RP are not saves. If you fail your save, an unsaved wound comes into effect, triggering all maner of wild and wonderful things, including FNP and RP, but also including the nastier effects of MW and VSA. yes,m and anythign else triggerd yb an unsved wound, like POinning, cussive, Sould Balce, Instnat Death, Knockdown, etc.

In the case of VSA, a failed test results in removing the model whether or not the FNP test is passed or failed, and in the case of MW, the stat loss is triggered as soon as the unsaved wound is created. Nowhere does it say "unless some other effect allows the victim to ignore the wound," or "unless the victim gets the wound back," or "as long as at the end of the day the wound sticks." If the rules for VSA/MW intended that the victim has to actually have a wound deducted before nasty effects are applied, they should say that. They don't. They say exactly the same thing that FNP and RP say in terms of when/how they are triggered. Hence, both FNP/RP and MW/VSA are triggered at the same time by the same event (the failed save). Or the rules for FNP/RP should say that they preempt anything else that an unsaved wound triggers.

Correct, and they don't need to. The onus is on special rules to state they ingore/alter the core rules or other special rules. This is an actual "thing" in the rules, and various rules that ignore other special ruels are specifically stated as doing so. Under your reasoning, any special rules can ignore FNP/RP even they do not say they do, so exactly why would you think that any rule would even need to specifically state that they ignore those things? This is the fundamental flaw in your reasoning of " It doen't have to say it does something to do it." Additional rules very much have to state that they alter the core rules or other special rules. Otherwise you don't have ruels system at all. Instead, you have people stating "truths" like, "The rules don't say that my Pinning attacks don't ignore FNP, so they do ignore it, because FNP doesn't specially state that it affects Pinning." Rules are modified/ignored by specific mention, not by not mentioning anything about them at all.

The counter-argument has not a leg to stand on, and opens up a whole array of B.S., like force weapons that may not actually have caused a wound, but that will still Instant Death the target model anyways (because it happened after the dealing-saving of the wound according to the counter-argument, as it has the EXACT same wording you counter-argument people are using), but we all very much know force weapons do not work that way (or do people now want to argue that force weapons do work that way, because that is just one item in the can of worms people are opening up if they insist on keeping on this path). There is not a single thing, anywhere, which backs up the assertion that the additional effects still take place even if the Feel No Pain/ Ranimation Protocols roll is made, and everything which points to the contrary. The wording of the rules really tell us everything we need to know.

Interesting...I haven't run into FNP/RP vs Force in this edition. I'll withhold judgement pending a reading of the rules when I get home, but under the old functioning of force weapons, insta-gibbing via force weapon was an elective action, not an automatic effect triggered by a failed save. In my mind, triggered effects would certainly take precedence over elective actions. However, with the re-casting of force as a psychic power used before swinging the weapon, it becomes an automatic effect just like FNP and the rest. It sounds like you are making a false comparison involving the way that force weapons used to work. With force being completely rewritten as a psychic power that temporarily adds a special rule to a weapon, it's entirely concievable that it works the same way as VSA and MW, insta-gib being triggered simultaneously with FNP/RP...if that's the case, then it's possibly an unintended consequence along the lines of our deathwing sergeants being stuck with power swords last edition when GW monkeyed with rules without thinking through the second and third order effects....although I always did have trouble with FNP defeating force weapons!

ALL of the "suffering an unsaved wound" effect are triggered effects. They are triggerd not by anything other than failing a save. The Force psychic power is not an elective effect, but an eletive powere which uimbues a nutis wepaon that have the RFroce speicla ruel with a triggerable effect - Instant Death. That effect is in turn triggered by the "sufering an unsaved wound" mechanism.

"If a model suffers any unaved wounds from Mind Worm, its...." The language is not exactly convoluted/confusiing; in fact is it beyond utterly clear. Agreed. Same with FNP, they are both triggered by the same event, the failed save.

And the "...treat it as being saved." bit from both Feel No Pain and Reanimation Protocols is likewise not exactly convoluted/confusing, and is in fact also beyond utterly clear. Also true. But the effects of VSA and MW have already been triggered, and there is no language about canceling their effects, or any requirement for the wound to remain unsaved in perpetuity. The only way for FNP or RP to retroactively erase the already-triggered effects of things like VSA and MW is for the rule to read "treat is as having been saved." As written, the rule only covers treating the wound as saved for all purposes going forward from the time of succeeding at the FNP or RP test, such as deducting a wound.

Was the wound unsaved, and therefor suffered? No, it was NOT. It WAS saved...by Feel No Pain/Reanimation Protocols...so there is no additional effect from the attack form, as it is dependent upon the wound being unsaved and therefore suffered. The problem here is that FNP and RP are not saves. They are effects triggered by the establishment of an unsaved wound...just like the VSA and MW effects in question, and no rule exists that would have us resolve FNP or RP first. Nor does any rule exist which would cause us to cancel any effects triggered prior to the successful FNP/RP test, since neither VSA nor MW is contingent on the model being wounded but rather both are contingent on the same event as that one that triggers FNP/RP, which is the establishement that there exists the condition of an unsaved wound.

They don't need to be saves. They just need to to specially mention that they treat any failed saves as if it were saved. "Psst! You know that save you missed? Guess what? You actually get to count it as having been saved, thereby ignoring the attack altogether." Feel No Pain and Reanimation Protocols are simply very powerful special rules. We already knew this though, didn't we? Ah, but no. Those are very much powerful abilities- just not againt stuff from Codex: Dark Angels...

If we want to look for precedent of any kind, we look at how other attack forms are handled with regard to these special rules. Attack forms which bypass either of these special rules specifically mention that they do so (see Feel No Pain and weapons that cause Instant Death, and Reanimation Protocols and D weapons for ecamples of this). As Mind Worm does not specifically mention that it bypasses either Feel No Pain or Reanimation Protocols, it does NOT ignore these special rules. So, for Mind Worm, it is an all-or-nothing thing: wound + effect, or nothing at all. Um, no. First of all, your line of reasoning requires a level of consistency across multiple rulebooks by multiple separate authors whose absence GW has in fact amply demonstrated is one of its greatest failings. Second, you are attempting to use absence of evidence as evicence of absence.

Contempt for GW is not a sound foundation for an argument. This statement only goes to show you know nothing of what you speak. Every single special rule that is reliant upon the "suffering an unsaved wound' mecnahism uses EXACTLY the same language- in the core rules, in every special rule in the appendix, and in every codex (the few that have such rules that is). The language used is univesally the same, and it isn't an example of GW 's rule writing monkeys randomly typing stuff and having gotten lucky beyond imagining, To use the same language for such rules, in every single source, is rather quantifiable proof that GW very much made a deilberate effort to be consistent. So, drop the "You are wrong, because GW is teh suck and couldn't possibly ever do anything right. ' schtick, because it has no substance to it of any kind (the GW hating crowd will surely love you though).

EDIT: OOPS!!! I needed to edit out the stasis attacks bits. Now see, stasis/rad grenades, and the non-"suffer a wound' bit of vast stasis anomally, merely need to HIT a unit for their additional effects to be triggered. Feel No Pain and Reanimation Protocols do NOTHING against those affects, though they do protect against suffering wounds and therefore from triggering the Initiative test/removed from play aspect of vast stasis anomally. I don't want there to be any confusion between the two (in my mind or anyone ele's). The confusion is there, though. The initiative test is not triggered by the wound sticking, (yes, it is, as a wound is not suffered if it is not actually removed from the model) it is triggered by the same thing that triggers FNP/RP, the unsaved wound. The key here is again that there are only three kinds of saves, and you can only take one save. Fail your save, and you have an unsaved wound. At that moment, both FNP//RP and VSA/MW are triggered, simultaneously. Indeed they are both triggered simultaneously, but the power of FNP/RP is that it removes the wound and therefore the required trigger for the other effects, but I guess your agenda is to cut the nuts off of FNP/RP). Since both are triggered by the unsaved wound, you can't say that one preempts the other. In the case of VSA, both the FNP/RP and Initiative tests are taken and both effects are applied (unless you accept that the player whose turn it is applies his effect first?), there is nothing in the rules to say that one preempts the other. In the case of MW, the stat-gutting is applied at the same time that the FNP/MW test is taken, and then a successful test would, going forward, not backward, based on the rule not having been written in the past perfect tense, be applied, preventing the loss of a wound and any other effects that happen after the FNP/RP test. Really. A time travel argument. See point 3 below.

Force simply gives the weapon the instant death USR. As such, force weapons (with force activated) are included in the text of the FNP rule that lists ID and D weapons as disallowing FNP. You seem to think that because VSA's Initiative test and Mind Worm's stat-gutting effects are not listed in the text of the FNP rule as disallowing FNP, they must therefore allow it. This fails on three counts.

First, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

In the case of a rules system, yes it is. Ruels are inclusive by mentioning them, not by a lack of mention. If you follow the oppsite reasoning, one can say that any weapon in the game can be said to ignore FNP simply besue FNP oesn't state that they don't. Show me wher it says my botler don't igorne FNP? Best leave off this point immediately, as it is not helping you.

Second, D and ID are USRs, while VSA and MW are codex specific.

You seem to think that USR's are a "thing", let alone a different kind of "thing". They are not. Whether in the appendix or in a codex, there is only one thing- special rules. There is no difference between them, and no differnce in how they may modify/ignroe the eorle ruels or other special rules.

Third, VSA and MW did not yet exist in their present forms at the time that the FNP rule was written, so there would have been no way to include them in the list...

Seriously? I guess that's why Instant Death didn't address Reanimatoion Protocols...which came out in the future... which is why Instant Death was instead addressed...in the future... in the Reanimation Protocols rule. Accordingly, the witers, already demonstrating an awareness that they lack the bability to travel back in time, didn't realise they could similarly address FNP/RP in the vsa/ MInd Worm rules too? So, I must ask again...this is a seriously an arguable point for you?

As for Pinning:

"I wounded you unit, so you have to make a Pinning check. Sorry, it doesn't matter if you made Feel No Pain/Reanimation Protocols rolls and so counted the wounds as saved, because the Pinning effect happens simultaneously. So, your unit has to make a Pinning check...even though your unit did not actually suffer any unsaved wounds at all."

I could add more examples, but I am pretty sure you guys don't think Force or Pinning weapons work that way, and so, hopefully, you will look at the counter-argument and realise that it is the exact same situation, and therefore Mind Worm and the "suffer an unsaved wound" dependent effect of vast stasis anomally do not work that way either. It is all right there, if you look for it. What is not there is anything supporting the counter-argument.

This betrays a complete misunderstanding of pinning. Pinning, as written is completely compatible with my understanding of FNP/RP. At the time at which the condition of a failed wound is established, both pinning and FNP/RP are triggered. But the resolution of pinning is explicitly postponed until after the shooting unit is done firing. As such, if the wound is negated by FNP or RP, this negation happens before pinning is resolved, and since the wound is forever treated as saved from the moment that the FNP/RP test is passed, when the time comes to resolve pinning at the end of the shooting, there is no failed wound, and thus no need to test for pinning (perhaps the cowards saw the man fall, then get up again, marveling that his uplifting primer absorbed the shot?). This stands in stark contrast to the case where VSA/MW are triggered simultaneously with FNP/RP, but their resolution is not postponed. There would be no need to specify that the pin test is delayed if in fact effects like FNP and RP naturally preempted the test.

No, it doesn't betray a misunderstadning of the Pinning special rule. You might want to read this game edtion's Pinning rules. Pinning checks are not made at the end of the turn in this game edition. They are made immediately upon the resolution of the attacking unit's shooting, which is exactly the same time FNP/RP is also resolved. The Pinning very much happens (according to your argument) because it is triggerd "simutaneously" when "suffering an unsaved wound" too, it is just hat (according to your argument once again) the unit does stil lget to use use FNP/RP as that happens when "suffering an unsaved wound' too. Triggered by same event, at the same time, and resolved immeditaley and simultaneously (according to your argument). Something closer to what you describe would be Soul Blaze, which does nothing immediately, but you would be wrong here too as the effect of it is gained as soon as the target 'suffers an unsaved wound", because that is the condition for placing the Soul Blaze token 'simultaneously" and FNP/RP do not negate "token placement" do they, so get your malted vinegar and tartar sauce ready for the fish fry (according to your argument, that is).

I did choose a poor example in terms of Instant Death, as that is not affect by/protected against by FNP/RP . Let me then highlight a special rule that is not.

Concussive: This effect happens "simultaneously" too according to your arguement. Even if Feel No Pain/Reanimation Protocols treats the wound as saved, the target's Initiative will still immediately be reduced to 1, and remain so until the end of the following Assault Phase. Score another one for the Dark Angels, as now Deathwing Knights/Deathwing Hammernators can cuncuss the snot out of anything and everything (especially those BIG things) with FNP/RP- even if they don't actually hurt them in any way! And the crozius/power maul just got a bump too (according to your argument).

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Since debate is going to go in circles with neither side "winning" I suggest the following:

1 - Check this thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/310441-fnp-vs-da-stasis-bomb/ because it's more or less the same situation about a triggered effect. This may or may not change your mind.

2 - Talk to your gaming group/opponent to see what they think of the effect.

3 - If you are going to a tournament, talk to the TO.

4 - Last but not least, wait for the FAQ and use 2 and 3 in the meantime.

 

Since the no side will prove the other wrong be cause both sides have valid points, no sense on wasting time, bytes, braincells and patience arguing each other to death/boredom. ;)

 

Thread closed... for now. If anybody knows any valid or groundbreaking motives to keep it open, PM me or another DA mod.