Sammael, Sableclaw or jetbike?

[Nordan]

I feel like Sableclaw is very good, 14A and 3+ reroll jink is a sick combo but you dont get the look out sir and you dont have a character to win cc with. What is your opinion guys?

 

I bet there is already a post about this, but I couldnt find it.

[IanSturrock]

I've not used either of them yet, but I suspect it's going to depend what else you bring. Sammael on jetbike shines in another unit these days -- that might be Ravenwing bikers, Black Knights, Command Squad, Deathwing Knights (joining them mid-game to enhance their range and give them Hit & Run), or an allied-in bike deathstar from C: SM (or even thunderwolves of one sort or another from C: SW).

 

If for some reason you're not bringing bikers or similar, you definitely want Sableclaw instead. You want to consider Sableclaw if you have a very vehicle-heavy army, too. I could see Sableclaw + loads of speeders in the Ravenwing detachment + Hammer of Caliban, working very nicely indeed. Your opponent better hope s/he brought a lot of antitank, and some way to ignore cover!

[ValourousHeart]

@ Nordan,

 

IanSturrock is right, the best Sammie to use is going to depend a lot upon the rest of your force.

Both are good... but IMO the speeder OUTCLASSES the jetbike in every department.

 

Now there are some very vocal players that will disagree with me whole heartedly... and they will be by shortly to strike their case.

 

But in the mean time, here are my points.

 

If you are planning on only using bikes... no speeders or anyother vehicles, then bring the jetbike.

That doesn't make the jetbike better... it is no different than bringing only a single vehicle in any list.

Do you really want them to only have one target for all their anti-armor weapons.

 

I feel that a good mix of RW units is about 50/50 or 60/40 split of bikes to speeders, point wise that is.

That used to mean in the old codex about 9-10 speeders at 2500 points, one of which was Sammie.

But that also meant having 30-35 bikes and attack bikes.

I am still trying to figure out my prefered ballance with the current codex... but this is where I started and it seems to be working well so far.

 

As for why I feel that the speeder OUTSHINES the jetbike... well here is my list.

 

1. S8 vs S2... the minimum strenght of the shooting weapon that can damage him.

You'll notice that every model in an IG army has a lasgun or laspistol that can wound the jetbike and any squad he is with, but only the special and heavy weapons can touch the speeder... and given that they are more likely to take plasmaguns and autocannons than any other choice, you are still safe.

 

2. Vector Strike vs CC... 2-4 guaranteed hits that your opponent can't swing back at or 4-5 swings that hit vs WS and your opponent can swing back.

Remember what I said about only requireing S2 to wound the Jetbike.  Every model in this game can hurt the jetbike in CC.  You have to be minimum S4 vs the speeder and they only get to do that on their turn.

 

3. Assault Cannon vs Plasma Cannon... The plasma cannon and the ravensword are AP 2, and because the tournament scene is over run with marine player (and completely lacking almost every other codex), people really feel that the jetbike is better.  Plasma is great, except for a few points... 1) gets hot and 2) blast template.  That means that the jetbike has a chance to wound himself with his own gun and even if he doesn't a 1 on gets hot, he could still scatter back upon his own unit if you target anything within 9 inches of you... Like a unit you might want to charge.

 

Not an optimal target but the assault cannon is good vs AV14 and can not have the number of hits reduced by thoughful placement of models in a unit.  The glory shot where you hit and kill 7 TDA models with a direct hit of the plasma cannon, is not likely to happen unless facing a noob.  And believe me they will not make that mistake twice.

 

3.  Target saturation vs Deathstar... The jetbike really works well with a deathstar... but as you will soon discover, the DA deathstar starts with models from either C:SM or C:SW.  But yes, if you hide Sammie in a RWCS, he will live longer.  However it is important to point out that if you give your opponent the option to shoot either an AV14 speeder with a 4++ or an AV10 speeder, more often then not they will shoot the AV10 speeder, because in their mind it is a guaranteed kill.  Now consider what they would do if you had 9 of those AV10 speeders... do your really think that your opponent would let 9 speeders run rampant over his army while he focused all of his attention on that 1 AV14 speeder with a 4++?  Or do you think he would ignore the AV14 speeder and focus on trimming down the numbers of those other speeders.

 

Do you want 1 big threat that your opponent will focus his attention on until it is gone?  Or do you want to present your opponent with more targets than he can deal with and use a broom to push his models off the table?

 

4.  BS10 vs BS5... BS5 twin linked means he shoots like he is BS10... that is over a 97% hit rate with 7  shots, that wound most models in the game on either a 3+ or 2+, and ignore 4+ armor, which account for everything not space marines.

 

There are a couple of instances where the jetbike can do something that the speeder can't.

But that is really limited to joining units, shooting overwatch, shooting himself and dying in CC on your own turn.

 

The not joining units isn't bad if you go for the target saturation army build.

 

Not shooting overwatch isn't really that big of a deal as the jetbike gets 2 shots with a stormbolter... nothing to get in a twist about.

And considering that the Speeder has Grim Resolve which gives him Stubborn and BS2 when shooting overwatch, it might come out in the FAQ that he can shoot overwatch.

 

I don't think anyone is going to list the jetbike's ability to shoot itself as a benefit, so I don't think we need to count it as a drawback that the speeder can't shoot itself.

 

One of the many benefits of not being able to be locked in CC is that you never die on your own turn in CC.

And if someone does manage to get into CC with the speeder they have exactly 1 turn to kill him, otherwise he will vector strike and then shoot the survivors if any.

[Jazzhands]

If they faqed so his speeder could join a support squad....

[Hidicul]

That'd be mean, fun, but mean jazz

[PhilB]

I like your analysis ValourousHeart, you've convinced me to give Sableclaw a go in my next all Ravenwing list. I've previously only ever used Sammie on Corvex.

 

Just 1 point that's been overlooked though, Sammie's warlord trait has got my RWCS into combat by a whisker so many times its hard to think about giving it up!

[Hidicul]

When fielding sableclaw, take a different warlord

[Jazzhands]

Fun but mean....

 

Story of my life

[aekold]

Currently I am using sammael on his jetbike, but there are certainly advantages to the speeder.

 

One of the biggest advantages I can think of is his complete immunity to the most common fire power out there, scatterbikes and broadsides.

 

One of the biggest disadvantages in my eyes is his vulnerability in close combat. Only 2 hull points, you do have the 4++ however.

 

If they would allow him to overwatch, due to him having grim resolve or allow him to join speeder squadrons I would certainly field him. 

[Garath]

Land speeder is superior to Jetbike.

 

Some points about why I say that:

1.Ls is extremely hard to kill. With AV14 jink on a 3+ with re roll...add a Douche shroud (new name for it! :D) for a 2+ rerollable jink

 

2. It keeps your WL kp safe

 

3. It's counter meta

 

4. It can pop transports and finish off wounded squads

 

5. Its immune to most psy powers , psychic shriek for example

 

With a litte care and planing LS ensures you your WL will survive.

 

The jetbike is decent.It's still a sub par cc character with only 3w and S4 in combat...

[ValourousHeart]

I will be the first to admit that I am a little bit biased toward the landspeeder.

But I love aircraft.

 

I don't think that Sableclaw needs to join a squadron... in fact, except for the RWSS formation, I don't think speeders really benefit from being in a squadron.

 

Squadrons make sense for big tanks like preditors.  Squadrons allow the memebers in the squad to ignore eachother for the purpose of LOS.  But they also slow the unit down when one takes damage, or they limit the shooting options of the others depending upon how far they move.

 

The rules don't really have any drawbacks when you look at a squadron of Preditors.  They move slow and often they don't move at all, and they have long range with turrets.  So before you had to worry if you parked your preditors next to one another, that the center one wouldn't be able to help out the ones on the side if someone came from that direction... Now you don't have to worry about that.

 

Speeders on the other hand have shorter ranged weapons, 24 inches for 2 of the 3 main upgrades (AC and MM).  With these 2 weapons (AC & MM) being able to draw LOS from behind another speeder might not help because you might be out of range or melta range.  Speeders are fast and ignore terrain, so getting into possition isn't hard, but maintaining coherence might force you to take DT or otherwise put you in poor board positions.

 

The extra benefit that our speeders get from being in a squadron is that they get to move faster when they turboboost.  But is that really necessary?

 

The speeder can move 12 inches, and has a gun that can fire 24, 36 or 48 inches away... that is a threat range of 36 to 60 inches... or 3 to 5 feet.  We are only playing on a 6x4 table and the longest line is only 7.2 feet.  To take advantage of the movement bonus you have to turboboost, which means giving up your shooting this turn.  So the only reason to do this is to make sure that you are in possition next turn.

 

So that means you move 12 inches this turn, turboboost 24 inches, get the bonus 1-6 inches, then move 12 inches again next turn then fire your gun.

 

I have a hard time picturing this scene... Were there no other targets within 3 feet of you last turn?  Or 5 feet of you if you use TML?  Are there no other units closer to that target, that you feel that you needed to drag your HF 5 feet across the board?

 

Now after saying all of that, I will say that the RWSS formation is amazing.  You should always take that formation for every LSV and Darkshroud in your collection.  However, you should not use the normal speeder squadrons unless you run out of FOC slots.  But I don't think we have to worry about force slots.

[IanSturrock]

I think there's a case for multiple speeders in a unit in Kill Point games. Single speeders are more flexible though.

[ValourousHeart]

Ian makes a very good point about Kill Point Games.

I tend to stick to Malstrom Missions.

[DarkAngeal]

If a speeder gets immobilized, you can leave it behind

[SnakeChisler]

Kill points as a mode is dead, no competition is going to use it as a primary mission and the most you'll see it is as a secondary.

 

With the rise of the necrons codex it's meaningless as a game mode, couple that wit Lions blade & demi-companies ad it gets evermore pointless.

 

7th is designed Road movable objectives even the big comps have developed a modified maelstrom.

 

Speeder v Bike

 

Flexibility wise then bike for a number of reasons

No invulnerable from pfg means you need tank characters for ignores cover weapons in your RBK squad I've had to add an interrogator

He swans around with DWK these days for double jink hit & run & +3 movement

 

I do have the speeder part built am going to do a speeder themed list

 

The rise of Grav as well as necrons makes it hard to use

[Cactus]

A squadron of speeders will also benefit more from being buffed by psychic powers than if they were individuals.

[aura_enchanted]

jetbike is in my opinion better because as sableclaw he cant join a squad which means no LoS he essentially has to sit there and take it, yes hes av14 sides and front and yeah he has the 4++ but the fact remains that if he is going to get focused down his saves and high AV only mitigate the damage hes going to take not outright cancel it. i would sooner have a model that can ignore damage thrown at it, than suffer the trials of the hurricane of missle and lascannons

[ValourousHeart]

@ Aura,

 

But that is just my point. The jet bike can't ignore anything, as everything in the game can potentially wound him.

 

And in my experience when running a butt load of speeders that if you focus on Sabelclaw, the rest of my army punishes you. Whereas if you ignore Sableclaw, you are more likely to affect my damage out put earlier in the game.

[IanSturrock]

Yeah it takes a *lot* of missiles and lascannons to take down Sableclaw. You have to bear in mind that it's as tough as a Land Raider on average from the front or sides (2hp with 4++  works out about as durable as 4hp, though admittedly it is less reliably durable) *before* you get the rerollable jink save! Now, you don't want to jink if you can help it, and I probably wouldn't unless I was down to 1hp and/or was being shot at by a lot of stuff. But Sableclaw really is not going down easily to either lascannons or missiles.

 

In fact, on average, it will take 24 krak missile hits to take out Sableclaw, vs 7.2 for jetbike Sammael. That assumes no jinking in either case. Now, the jetbike has other advantages that may make it more durable -- the ability to join a squad, smaller size so easier to get cover, the ability to hide in melee combat -- but in raw terms it is significantly less durable against S8 AP3 than the speeder is.

[SvenONE]

I think it depends entirely on your list and play style.   I haven't run Sableclaw in this edition yet, but if I did I think I'd run it was part of an Inner Circle slot as part of a Lion's Blade detachment to supplement high powered shooting.  I think if you do run him it's probably best to run him with a Darkshroud nearby.

[ValourousHeart]

Sabelclaw might not be for everyone. But I think that everyone that plays Ravenwing should give him and a lot of speeders a try.

 

As to the advantage of hiding in a squad or in cc... I found that most of my opponents want to be in cc, so I would just be playing into their plan If I try to "hide" in cc.

 

So it is much more of a disruption to their plan when I don't allow cc armies the satisfaction of cc.

[Steve86]

Before this post gets too old i would like to know more about the uses of Sammael on the jetbike...what unit is best to stick him in and basic tactics(stay away from cc odviously). Im just hoping i didnt just buy a $50 paperweight because most of what i read here makes it sound like it alittle

[Hidicul]

Put him with 6 black knights to erase squads with plasma, and if you do get stuck in cc better chances of staying alive and seriously hurting or killing whatever engaged you.

[ValourousHeart]

Before this post gets too old i would like to know more about the uses of Sammael on the jetbike...what unit is best to stick him in and basic tactics(stay away from cc odviously). Im just hoping i didnt just buy a $50 paperweight because most of what i read here makes it sound like it alittle

The Jetbike is a very cool and unique unit for space marines. And he is really good at what he does. He is also one of our best CC units, right behind a I-Chap with Mace of Redemption. The problem is that what other codexes consider good CC HQ units tend to eat our best CC HQ units for lunch.

 

So just understand that when you field him that he is going to be VERY GOOD at taking out infantry units, PRETTY GOOD at taking out squad leaders, JUST OK at dealing with dedicate CC units, and PROBABLY GOING TO DIE when facing a beat stick HQ.

 

But this really isn't any different than most other codexes. Their beat stick HQ is really good at dealing with infantry, and their massed infantry fire power is how they deal with beat stick HQs. It is the VERY, VERY RARE flower that is able to be a beat stick vs both infantry and HQs... We all can't be Abaddon, afterall.

 

Also don't forget my other comments about HQ choice based on list design. If you plan to take about half of your points as speeders or other vehicles, then the speeder is the more synergistic choice. If you plan to run all bikes, or next to no vehicles, then the speeder will be the only target for all of those Anti-Tank weapons (IE a bad choice).

 

If you want to dominate the shooting game, and shoot your opponents twice on thier turn and a bunch on your own turn, then you will want to look into a crazy RW list in the army list section. If you want a list that does something in every phase of the game, then a mix of RWCS (or RWBK), RWBS (or RWAS) and speeders (or RWSS) with a Librarian as a secondary HQ is the way to go.

 

Just remember that either way you play it RW plays more like a mobile gun line than it does a fast assault army.