Best BA units to take down fellow marines?

[Raverbasher]

If anything I'd grab Astorath instead of Lemartes, more AP 2 and the reroll to hit/wound for the DC will be crazy.

 

Points are tight. I may just drop Lemartes/SP/Astorath and get a small mobile unit to grab objectives.  It'd be fun to have a massive deathball though.

[BadDice0809]

Massive deathballs are nice- if you can make them. Space Wolf Thunderwolves, Paladins with Draigo, Centurions with Invisibility spam- these are powerful survivable deathstars/balls/whatever.

 

Blood Angels can't really make any of these. If you want to run a choppy unit, Blood Angels have to run two- Sang Guard with Dante and Priest along with a Death Company Squad. Death Company with Astorath and another unit or two, maybe with another Chaplin or Buffing Libby. Our strong killer units can be focused down with all the super shooting this edition. Run two (or three...or four) viable options for melee if you want them to actually make combat.

 

I play DA a lot. Their new overwatch means they get a free shooting phase before we get to assault. Always bring a throw away unit with your main melee unit to block some LOS for cover and to charge first and eat overwatch. But once you get in.... game over.

[Raverbasher]

Massive deathballs are nice- if you can make them. Space Wolf Thunderwolves, Paladins with Draigo, Centurions with Invisibility spam- these are powerful survivable deathstars/balls/whatever.

 

Blood Angels can't really make any of these. If you want to run a choppy unit, Blood Angels have to run two- Sang Guard with Dante and Priest along with a Death Company Squad. Death Company with Astorath and another unit or two, maybe with another Chaplin or Buffing Libby. Our strong killer units can be focused down with all the super shooting this edition. Run two (or three...or four) viable options for melee if you want them to actually make combat.

 

I play DA a lot. Their new overwatch means they get a free shooting phase before we get to assault. Always bring a throw away unit with your main melee unit to block some LOS for cover and to charge first and eat overwatch. But once you get in.... game over.

 

Thanks.  With the new DA rules in the Appendix it says units with Grim Resolve shoot at BS 2 when they Overwatch.  That'd be hitting at 5+ right?

 

I keep seeing people say that Dante should be with SG.  Why is that?  Does the 2+ save make that much of a difference? It seems most marine weapons which penetrate 3+ also penetrate 2+.  The DC also automatically come with FNP, Rage and Relentless.  A lib added to the unit with Shield of Sangiunius adds a 5+ inv safe to the unit, plus Quickening, and the costs saved from getting DC instead of SG and no SP means you can get more DC to act as meatshields.  Why is it recommended so much that Dante goes with SG?

[CaptainHelion]

They get extra BS from formation bonuses, iirc.

[Charlo]

Aye, with the right comp they get BS3 or even BS4 overwatch :(

[BadDice0809]

That Lions Blade! So jealous of their fluffy formations that give sweet bonuses! But that argument has been made. A lot.

 

People run Dante with Sanguinary Guard because 1) it looks awesome 2) he serves as a tank to protect the more vulnerable normal dudes (disregard logic of protectee protecting bodyguard!) 3) his H&R allows an expensive squad like that to avoid getting locked in combat and keep getting those tasty charge bonuses

Also Sanguinary Guard lack a character sgt to single out those ICs you want to murder fast without wading through the mooks guarding him/her/it

[Raverbasher]

That Lions Blade! So jealous of their fluffy formations that give sweet bonuses! But that argument has been made. A lot.

People run Dante with Sanguinary Guard because 1) it looks awesome 2) he serves as a tank to protect the more vulnerable normal dudes (disregard logic of protectee protecting bodyguard!) 3) his H&R allows an expensive squad like that to avoid getting locked in combat and keep getting those tasty charge bonuses

Also Sanguinary Guard lack a character sgt to single out those ICs you want to murder fast without wading through the mooks guarding him/her/it

Thanks for the clarification!

1) I think DC also look awesome (also I haven't painted or assembled my SG yet...)

2) I can see how FNP for Dante helps with the tanking. I'd never actually thought of using him as a tank before. I like it!

3) H&R works for DC too.

I decided to write down all the bonuses so I could get a better idea of what each unit brings and the cost:

SG -

Chapter Banner: +1 Atk.

Blood Chalice: + 1 WS

Narthecium: FNP

Furious Charge: +1 Str

Articficer Armour: 2+ save

Encarmine Swords: Master Crafted, AP3

8 x SG with 5 Inferno Pistols + SP = 414

DC -

Rage: +2 Atks on the charge

2 x CC weapon: +1 Atk

FNP

Furious Charge: +1 Str

10 x DC with 5 Inferno Pistols = 305 pts, so that's 109 points to play with. Could add an SP for Dante (380) and still have 34 pts. left over. Could add a couple of power swords, maybe a powerfist. Or just get another unit of DC

SG get 4 atks on the charge, 3 atks if they are charged, at AP3 + 1 Str and Ws. That's 32 attacks on the charge with the above numbers at AP3

DC get 5 atks on the charge, 3 atks if charged, at +1 str and possibly +1 WS. That's 50 attacks on the charge with the above numbers At AP0.

(Please correct me if my maths is wrong).

I guess if I'm going after marines, SG look like they may come out ahead with their AP3

[Indefragable]

That Lions Blade! So jealous of their fluffy formations that give sweet bonuses! But that argument has been made. A lot.

People run Dante with Sanguinary Guard because 1) it looks awesome 2) he serves as a tank to protect the more vulnerable normal dudes (disregard logic of protectee protecting bodyguard!) 3) his H&R allows an expensive squad like that to avoid getting locked in combat and keep getting those tasty charge bonuses

Also Sanguinary Guard lack a character sgt to single out those ICs you want to murder fast without wading through the mooks guarding him/her/it

Thanks for the clarification!

1) I think DC also look awesome (also I haven't painted or assembled my SG yet...)

2) I can see how FNP for Dante helps with the tanking. I'd never actually thought of using him as a tank before. I like it!

3) H&R works for DC too.

I decided to write down all the bonuses so I could get a better idea of what each unit brings and the cost:

SG -

Chapter Banner: +1 Atk.

Blood Chalice: + 1 WS

Narthecium: FNP

Furious Charge: +1 Str

Articficer Armour: 2+ save

Encarmine Swords: Master Crafted, AP3

8 x SG with 5 Inferno Pistols + SP = 414

DC -

Rage: +2 Atks on the charge

2 x CC weapon: +1 Atk

FNP

Furious Charge: +1 Str

10 x DC with 5 Inferno Pistols = 305 pts, so that's 109 points to play with. Could add an SP for Dante (380) and still have 34 pts. left over. Could add a couple of power swords, maybe a powerfist. Or just get another unit of DC

SG get 4 atks on the charge, 3 atks if they are charged, at AP3 + 1 Str and Ws. That's 32 attacks on the charge with the above numbers at AP3

DC get 5 atks on the charge, 3 atks if charged, at +1 str and possibly +1 WS. That's 50 attacks on the charge with the above numbers At AP0.

(Please correct me if my maths is wrong).

I guess if I'm going after marines, SG look like they may come out ahead with their AP3

I've crunched the numbers all sorts of times (every Blood Angel player does when they run into this comparison).

A DC w/ AP3 Power Sword and jump pack = 38pts (20+3+15).

A SG comes stock with AP3 and jump pack at 33pts.

If you include the cost of a Chapter Banner (because why would you ever NOT take one?) te SG is 38pts as well (25/5=5pts/model for a 5 man SG unit).

So if you need or want AP3, then SG is really useful since 2+ is underrated. Yes, there are plenty of low AP weapons that can hurt them but realistically, most of that low AP weaponry is going to be shooting vehicles first. And even if they do shoot your SG, then that leaves other parts of your army less shot at. On a psychological level, SG often fly under the radar since most 40k players don't realize their capabilities where DEATH COMPANY!!! Is the one BA unit (besides perhaps Mephiston) whose reputation precedes it.

To me, DC are "better" at taking on large cheap units and small elite units...sort of a Reverse Belll Curve.

The only unit I've ever lost a full-strength (10+) unit of DC to in melee was a 30-man Ork 'Ard Boy mob. That's 30x 4+ armor saves at T4 that soaked up all those wounds and let the hidden Power Klaws squish them back. Death Company die a lot, but it's typically by shooting or getting whittled down in multiple combats.

SG, in contrast, are best at beating up the middle tiers, but can get drowned in Dice by tarpits or squished by Terminators, etc...

I have never lost an entire unit of SG, but that I almost always run them with Dante and/or a SP so that's an unfair comparison.

40k is all about Quality vs Quantity and finding the right balance between the two is the trick.

[Indefragable]

Edit: Double post deleted

[Indefragable]

Sorry about double post...not sure what happened there...especially the formatting.

[evildrcheese]

Personally I think DC are a better unit overall. The weight of attacks they can deliver puts down alot of hurt and therefore you can throw them at anything. I run mine with a couple of Pfists, a Chappy and Dante in bigger games (hit and run combined with rage and chappy rerolls is brutal)

 

SG are interesting as they're billed as the Chapters best, but really they're best used to bully marine equivalents, anything with a decent invul and any level of combat aptitude will knock them back. They don't get a huge amount of attacks due to to handed (and it really bothers me that we don't at least get a S bonus for 2 handed, at least then they might've posed a viable threat to MCs)...however, since the question is about killing marines, SG are pretty sweet in this role.

 

In terms of answering the original question, the Baal Strike force Detachment is excellent for killing MEQ, striking before other marines in combat is huge, especially if the sgt has a power sword or similar. Our dex is fully of anti infantry roles, the Baal is good with decent strength and rending on the AC.

 

D

[Raverbasher]

Thanks for the responses again. I'm also thinking SG may be better in the MEQ role. Their attacks are less, but I'm gong to be sticking a Lib with them, so they should get Quickening, which is at least one more attack.

 

I've also found with DC that they wipe a unit out in my turn and then get shot at and/or charged in my opponents turn. With less attacks, I might be able to get the SG to drag combat out into my opponents go to prevent this happening.

[Indefragable]

Thanks for the responses again. I'm also thinking SG may be better in the MEQ role. Their attacks are less, but I'm gong to be sticking a Lib with them, so they should get Quickening, which is at least one more attack.

 

I've also found with DC that they wipe a unit out in my turn and then get shot at and/or charged in my opponents turn. With less attacks, I might be able to get the SG to drag combat out into my opponents go to prevent this happening.

15+ S5 AP3 attacks still stands a chance of wiping out a MEQ unit...

[Raverbasher]

 

*Snip*.

15+ S5 AP3 attacks still stands a chance of wiping out a MEQ unit...

Lol, totally. They're also going to have 5+ Inferno Pistols so they can shoot stuff up the turn they arrive.

[Ohrtanc]

 

Thanks for the responses again. I'm also thinking SG may be better in the MEQ role. Their attacks are less, but I'm gong to be sticking a Lib with them, so they should get Quickening, which is at least one more attack.

 

I've also found with DC that they wipe a unit out in my turn and then get shot at and/or charged in my opponents turn. With less attacks, I might be able to get the SG to drag combat out into my opponents go to prevent this happening.

 

If I understand you right and you want to buff your SG with Quickening then I have to spoil your idea but it only works on Characters and not on units.

 

I like to play SG in a squad of 8 with Chapter Banner, 6 swords, 2 axes, Dante, Sanguinary Priest with JP, BP and Power Lance, ML 2 Librarian with JP, Gallian's Staff, Sanguinary Discipline. Coming at roundabout 725 it's only usefull for games with at least 2000 maybe 2500 points. For smaller games drop the Librarian and the Power Lance on the SP.