Militarum Tempestus: What role do they play in your Regiment

[Chapter Master Furious]

Hail Fellow Commanders 

 

So the Topic of this post is simple; What are Scions good for? After acquiring 10 Scions (one squad of 10), I'm at a bit of a crossroads in terms of what role should they play on the battlefield with my Regiment. Current i have them as a rapid Strike unit, who come screaming in on a valkyrie and deploy on objectives or anywhere else they are needed. 

 

Is this what most people use Scions for? Or would it be wise to invest more points into a larger force (perhaps an allied detachment?). Let me know what guys think.

 

Regards

 

 

CM Furious  

[Quneitra]

Honestly, it depends on what your setup is like. I'm using the older stormies courtesy of the FW Armoured Battlegroup List, and they dole out a bit more firepower than the Scions because every one of them has a lasgun, laspistol, and CCW, making them decent enough at close combat and close-range shooting.

 

In my formation, I use them either to rush objectives, courtesy of the Chimera's 12" movement, or most of the time keep them in close proximity to my tanks to prevent my opponent from attacking the squishy rear. I'm using them over basic Guardsmen because they don't take up troops slots that my tanks use, have better BS, and their AP3 allows me to negate most armor saves I'll be facing. Even against Veterans, their AP3 guns do significantly more damage then the regular lasgun, allowing me to gain my points back on them or at least buy my tanks time against dedicated deepstrikers.

 

Based on Mathhammer , I calculated that with lasguns alone, I'll on average get around three times more wounds at rapid fire range with my 7-man squad against MEQ than with a 10-member Veteran squad, ignoring the dedicated Chimera and laspistol each ABG stormie gets in order to fit them more in with Scions. That's less significant against GEQ, but its still roughly 5 wounds for Scions/Stormies and 4 for Veterans. Thus, despite their cost, I find them useful.

 

Their weaponry are definitely more suited to the offensive than defensive; using them as a rapid strike unit might be for the best, but think of your list and see how you want them to fit in. Its entire possible to use them to shore up weak points in a gun line, for example, too.

[march10k]

True elites.  That's their role in my regiment.  Expensive, but they do so much more than a regular trooper that sometimes you have to throw efficiency to the wind and insist on effectiveness.  5 man squads with dual BS4 special weapons and carapace armor deepstriking with move through cover is a ton of capability...expect to pay for it!  Basically, five of them cost five points less than ten vets with carapace...ouch!  But...throw in dual specials and deepstrike, and sometimes they do stuff no other unit can.  90 points for two melta shots is pricey, but how else are you going to get the melta on target unmolested?  Better yet, how about four plasma shots at rear armor?  They're horribly inefficient, and incredibly effective...at special missions, never take them for general trench manning duties!

[morroccomole]

I have so far played mine as deep striking wild-cards. Sometimes equipped with plasma, and sometimes with melta; they usually come in around turn three to either mop up, or to try and shift the tide. Overall I find them kind of ho-hum, but I can't expect much from the paltry five that I have so far.

[Gothical]

I'm still experimenting with them. I love the Kasrkin models and I prefer to use MT over Veteran squads for fluff reasons. Getting a bit cheaper and coming in Platoons was amazing.

 

In many ways the "old" ways of running Storm Troopers still works, but better. 5-man squads with 2x Meltaguns using Deepstrike are good armour killers. 10-man squads with 2x Plasma Guns using Deepstrike are great "second-front" units. Thanks to their high BS I don't particularly rate Flamers or Grenade Launchers. They could potentially use a Chimera in the same vein as mechanised veterans, but then you are not using the deployment option (Deepstrike) you are undoubtedly paying points for - same goes for the Valkyrie/Vendetta.

 

However, the Volley Gun is an interesting new weapon. I have been thinking about using a Command Squad with 3x Volley Guns to, once they are deployed, sit still and loose 12 shots then use the "Fowards, for the Emperor!" order to still move. But then I think that the Volley Gun may be better suited to regular squads and the naturally small Command Squad should have multiple Meltaguns for anti-tank work.

 

The Taurox Prime has also potentially opened up new uses too. Not only does it carry some decent weapons itself, but it is Fast and the combination of All-Terrain APC and Move Through Cover could make for an excellent rapid strike force.

 

So, I don't know what to make of them really these days, but the above are some of my thoughts. It is a real shame they can no longer Infiltrate though, that was a useful ability.

[Frater Cornelius]

No Scions in my Regiment as long as they cost 14ppm with their current set of rules. I am generally not a fan of reserves, unless we are talking Drop Pods and deep striking can not be relied on. They can not infiltrate and meching up is done just as well by Vets with more specials at the cost of AP3 on their Lasgun.

[WarriorFish]

Same as morroc - come in to cause some mischief or shore up a line somewhere. They're too expensive to dally with; commit them to battle boldly for who dares wins! :D

 

I'd like to see them improved a but even if it's just a return to the pistol and ccw load out then we would see them on the table more which they deserve!

[Quneitra]

I didn't really realize how important the CCW/pistol loadout was with Stormies, until I played with Scions and an assault marine squad with a Chaplain contested one of their objectives. An extra AP 3 shot would have saved me some casualties.

[Median]

I've actually just had a couple of 1k games using only scions. It composed of a ground assault formation and another detachment of 1 command and 2 scion. All the units were equipped the same...5 man squads with 2 melta.

I was pretty dubious on how well they would play out being use to a horde of guardsmen covering every inch of the deployment zone.

Separately the units are quite fragile but as soon as you pull out a command squad with them and start issuing the twin linked order etc they become pretty brutal.

The formation is also worth investing in. Having your units get twin linked on ALL their weapons when they debus is awesome. Not to mention the volley 4 twin linked volley guns are sweet.

So in my opinion I would say to get a detachment of them instead of just a single unit and use them in force.

[Kontakt]

No Scions in my Regiment as long as they cost 14ppm with their current set of rules. I am generally not a fan of reserves, unless we are talking Drop Pods and deep striking can not be relied on. They can not infiltrate and meching up is done just as well by Vets with more specials at the cost of AP3 on their Lasgun.

I am sorry you feel that way. The Scions' greatest strength is in their special rules. If you feel your scatter dice will always lead you into other models, then I can see your concern. Then again, immunity to dangerous terrain tests means you can land into ruins and cover (scatter isn't as scary). If all you want is carapace armour with special weapons in a metal box, stick to your veterans. 

[librisrouge]

No Scions in my regiments, but if you want I can tell you about the contributions of my Kasrkin

I mostly use them to take some action in the enemy's backfield. I find it hard to get my men moving forwards as often as I like so a deep striking unit is invaluable to acquire linebreaker and dispose of enemy units that might otherwise consider themselves safe because of LoS blocking terrain (I don't use artillery much outside of my all infantry lists.)

[greycat]

I have two units of 5 with 2x melta guns each and a unit of 10 with all hotshots. I use the 2x 5 melta squads a lot more in my regular lists as they are a cheap way of getting anti tank where I need it. I only use the unit of 10 when Im playing small games using infantry only lists as hot shots unless used against armoured targets in the open just become expensive lasguns.

 

They are elite and should be treated as such. Use them to strike at their chosen target and create maximum damage. Though better armoured than most guardsmen they have low numbers so cannot stand up to much return fire.

 

I do remember fondly one game where a unit of 5 dropped down and blew up a hammerhead and then the sarge survived the return shooting and overwatch, charged the firewarriors nearby killing two of them, survived combat and then ran the unit down plus taking an objective from consolidation on the last turn of the game. Truly elite!

[WarriorFish]

Taking large squads is good I feel for anything not dropping in for a sneaky hit, but I'd always add some special weapons. Even if their bog standard weapons are good they'll not be good against many target types and for an elite unite versatility is never a bad thing. When in doubt give them plasma to have your cake and eat it ;)

[CoffeeGrunt]

I sadly never make use of Scions, but in Apocalypse games they're pretty fun as they often got unnoticed. I basically use them the same as others here do, basically in the same capacity as Crisis Suits but with less expectation that they'll get out alive. Drop them in, melt something valuable with Special Weapons, then proceed to be a nuisance for as long as possible.

 

I quite like the 4x Volleygun Command Squad, though. They put out a nice amount of dakka, and if you get Bring It Down off, they can scare big creatures surprisingly effectively.

[greycat]

How do ytou use the vollygun command unit though? They arent relentless so you wont be getting that many shots off?

[CoffeeGrunt]

I've only used them in Apocalypse, so in that they were a little unit that just sat in a building unleashing volleys of AP3 fire that I put Monster Hunter onto to make it nasty against Tyranid MCs. They were just about enough of a non-threat to go unnoticed by any dedicated firepower. In a normal game that'd be much harder, but maybe you could stick them in a building with 4 fire points if you've brought one along. I wouldn't bring it specifically for this unit, mind, just if you've already brought one in your list. The Tempestor in Codex:AM is a bit mediocre as far as Orders go, so you aren't missing much on that front.

[spafe]

I use a full (ish) platoon of them to open up another front! Large units of 10, one with plasma, one with melta and one with nade launchers. Then the command with a couple of plasmaguns, a plasma pistol on the boss and if I find myself with a few spare points then get the vox systems first.

 

35 men appearing to give a headache can catch many enemies offguard, and while they usually expect some reserves, a full platoon is a bit more than that! And due to the cheapness of the rest of your inf you can still keep the numbers up everywhere else so you don't miss them too much.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Why Grenade Launchers, out of curiosity? Not really sure what they bring to the Scions' capabilities.

[spafe]

I have 30 of the old metal inq stormies, so their loadouts are fixed, then 5 new scions as the command squad. No other reason than that and I mainly play against a mate a handful of times a year so cut throat meta isn't really our thing

[HenricusTyranicus]

No Scions in my Regiment as long as they cost 14ppm with their current set of rules. I am generally not a fan of reserves, unless we are talking Drop Pods and deep striking can not be relied on. They can not infiltrate and meching up is done just as well by Vets with more specials at the cost of AP3 on their Lasgun.

Slight inaccuracy, they cost 12 ppm. However, there is a sergeant tax of 10 points per unit. 

[march10k]

You know what they're really good at? Killing bolterbitches...of course, how often do you face those?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Failing that, they're good against Aspect Warriors.

[Master Antaeus]

There is no reason to deploy them from a valk; they can already deep strike.  Putting them in a valk just limits where you can place them.  If you want to transport a unit in a valkyrie, it should be a unit that can't penetrate the opponent's line on their own. 

 

As for what you should do with a single squad of scions, use them like you would use special forces in a pitched battle; keep them in a strategic reserve and whenever they come in, deploy them where they're needed most.  If your line is about to collapse or (more likely) has collapsed, drop them nearby to bolster your flagging troops.  If your line is holding, but your opponent has a brutal second wave incoming, drop them deep near a unit he requires and force him to turn around and address them.  If your opponent's back field is a parking lot full of burning wrecks, then drop them on the objective you had written off at the beginning of the game.

 

You usually won't see the last scenario when the scions come in (turn 2 or 3) but deep striking them gives you unpredictability, flexibility and formlessness, which would make Sun Tzu happy.  Since it's only 1 squad, it'll be about 145 pts, so if you lose them or they never turn up, lacking their presence is quite survivable--equivalent to losing a light tank before your first turn.

 

I recommend 2 plasma or (if you only have 1 squad), 1 plasma and one melta.  This ensures your squad can menace anything and only sacrifices one high-quality shot.  It might also be worth giving their sgt a meltabomb.  I do not recommend any other CC upgrades.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Can Scion Sergeants take Meltabombs? I can't remember them having access to the Special Issue Wargear list.

[Gothical]

Can Scion Sergeants take Meltabombs? I can't remember them having access to the Special Issue Wargear list.

 

No, they can't - I just checked, they neither have access to Special Wargear nor is it listed as an option in the Tempestus entries.

 

There is no reason to deploy them from a valk; they can already deep strike.  Putting them in a valk just limits where you can place them.  If you want to transport a unit in a valkyrie, it should be a unit that can't penetrate the opponent's line on their own. 

 

As for what you should do with a single squad of scions, use them like you would use special forces in a pitched battle; keep them in a strategic reserve and whenever they come in, deploy them where they're needed most.  If your line is about to collapse or (more likely) has collapsed, drop them nearby to bolster your flagging troops.  If your line is holding, but your opponent has a brutal second wave incoming, drop them deep near a unit he requires and force him to turn around and address them.  If your opponent's back field is a parking lot full of burning wrecks, then drop them on the objective you had written off at the beginning of the game.

 

You usually won't see the last scenario when the scions come in (turn 2 or 3) but deep striking them gives you unpredictability, flexibility and formlessness, which would make Sun Tzu happy.  Since it's only 1 squad, it'll be about 145 pts, so if you lose them or they never turn up, lacking their presence is quite survivable--equivalent to losing a light tank before your first turn.

 

I recommend 2 plasma or (if you only have 1 squad), 1 plasma and one melta.  This ensures your squad can menace anything and only sacrifices one high-quality shot.  It might also be worth giving their sgt a meltabomb.  I do not recommend any other CC upgrades.

 

I occasionally give my Sergeants Power Swords because it looks cool and it's "an extra 3 hot-shot shots" in combat. There have been times that has made the difference, but often it is a waste of points. It definitely can be worth it in the Tempestus Command Squad though as the Tempestor Prime is one of the few models in the army that has I4 and so can reasonably finish off the stragglers of a Marine squad once it's been shot to pieces.

 

What do you think about giving the Sergeants Plasma Pistols? I can't decide if the extra high-strength shot is worth it given the high chance of getting to rear/side armour or if 15 points is just far too much.