Lanky27 Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I'm looking to build a force of loyalist based around shabran darr and the Istvaan 3, hopefully about the 2500 point mark. I was wondering if anyone has experience using shabran and what role he works best in? Also what kind of army would best represent the force? My thoughts were pride of the legion ROW to represent the depleted, yet veteran units left on the planet defending themselves against the traitors. Also I'd assume the units available should be restricting in some way like 1 spartan max to represent the losses theyve suffered. Any advice would be great, am currently researching as much as i can about the topic :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313002-shabran-darr-and-istvaan-loyalists/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I'm looking to build a force of loyalist based around shabran darr and the Istvaan 5 Istvaan III :P V was the big massacre with Salamanders, Iron Hands and RG :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313002-shabran-darr-and-istvaan-loyalists/#findComment-4158561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanky27 Posted August 29, 2015 Author Share Posted August 29, 2015 Oops! lol thanks for the heads up Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313002-shabran-darr-and-istvaan-loyalists/#findComment-4158583 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caillum Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Shabran Darr is like Garviel Loken and Saul Tarvitz - ok for a fluff game, but woefully underpowered. It's such a shame really, because using the Istvaan III Special Characters shouldn't be a penalty. Morturg is really good at least. You can kit out a Praetor with a master-crafted chainaxe for the same price, and he'll have an extra W, A & Ld and a 2+ save. Shabran's Rage can be taken as a Legion trait anyway (or acquired in game if you want to stay true to the fluff). He might miss out on FnP (6+), but only if he's in a unit without an Apothecary (which he shouldn't be). I'd just take a Praetor with a paragon blade, model him like Shabran Darr and take heads via Murderous Strike! :) A Praetor can take a RoW too. Your suggestion of restricting unit options is a good one, as it makes you think outside the box for list-building. :) Pride of the Legion would reflect the grizzled survivors defending the Precentor's Palace. However, you could still run their own Rite of War, as they didn't really defend - they counter-attacked in brutal fashion! In most cases, Mechanised works well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313002-shabran-darr-and-istvaan-loyalists/#findComment-4158655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Istvaan V was indeed the big "traitor" on loyalist brawl, but Istvaan III was the purging of the Death Guard, World Eaters, Sons of Horus and Emperors Children of loyalist elements. It's also the one Shabran Darr made a name for himself at by slaughtering dozens of his traitor once-kin. So a couple of things to keep in mind here, Lanky. Darr is probably the most badass World Eater to hold a chainaxe in the fluff, but it doesn't translate so hot to his rules on the board. He's going to get beaten up by well armed HQs. If you're going with a PotL list with veterans, it's going to be key that you support him with other HQs to gang up on hard targets that would give him trouble. One big thing that Loyalist XII get that traitors do not is librarians. I'd think seriously about including one or two in your list. They aren't very common on the tabletop, and some well timed powers from biomancy, divination or telekinesis would go a great way towards evening out some of the meaner rules the traitors get in Massacre. It would also be super fluffy as well, undesireable elements of the XII being purged and all. If you're aiming for more veterans than terminators, it's good to take a mix of several different styles of units to make the most of their veteran skills instead of trying for every unit as a "general purpose." Each squad with a dedicated purpose is less expensive and more effective at their given task than a unit that tries to do everything. One or two squads with a few power weapons and furious charge for assaults, a couple with tank hunters and melta guns for anti-armor, etc. Hope that bit of general advice helps. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313002-shabran-darr-and-istvaan-loyalists/#findComment-4158665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanky27 Posted August 29, 2015 Author Share Posted August 29, 2015 @caillum - hey mate I really like your idea of using a praetor and kiting him out like shabran, also solves the needing a praetor to get a Row issue. I am leaning towards the veterans idea but think rhinos will be needed to fully take advantage of their strengths. @flint13 - I really like the librarian idea as it would totally suit the purging yet bring some new ideas and tactics to a world eaters force while not sounding out of place. Also great advice about the veterans, I've never run them before so making them role specific definitely sounds like the right way to do it. Thanks very much for the food for thought :) As a thought, I'd probably be going for rapiers, dreads and tanks rather than pods and fliers as that would suit the fluff right? Also the excoriator chainaxe caedere weapon looks perfect for a custom build shabran Darr, although will the stats of the axe be enough for shabran to be a killing machine? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313002-shabran-darr-and-istvaan-loyalists/#findComment-4158909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Glad to help! The best thing about Librarians is that, while technically you can only really have 4 psychic dice (though my gaming group tends to ignore that silly librarian ML3 nerf in the Red Book), Librarians are really rarely played and Adamantium Will is almost non-existent in 30k. The only real pysker opposition you are likely to have is Word Bearers. So that would go a good way to leveling the playing field for Loyalist Eaters since they don't get Rage/Hatred, Angron, Khârn or Red Butchers ^_^ A combination force of Vets, Rapiers and dreads sounds like a ton of fun. Vets, whether the shooty Sniper kind or the choppy Furious Charge kind, are great at removing other marines. Rapiers are excellent at anti-tank with both laser destroyers and graviton cannons and contemptor dreads are terrific at both since they can easily sweep big infantry units. It all depends on the type of opponents are are likely to face. The excoriator is a little bit slack in the rules I'm afraid. If you're really set on taking one, go for it, but a power axe is better most of the time since you can get an extra attack with an additional CCW as well as AP2. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313002-shabran-darr-and-istvaan-loyalists/#findComment-4158939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caillum Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 @Flint13 - I completely forgot about the Librarians in Betrayer and how they didn't have the Butcher's Nails. They would be really themey and cool! I've been toying with a few lists using Libbies lately - you're right about them having a big advantage. @Lanky27 - I like Vets a lot. They might not want to take Furious Charge as they can get it in game anyway. But Flint's suggestion of Sniper would be pretty solid, as they can blast away effectively until they get into combat. With regards to Shabran Darr's weapon - paragon blades are not always swords - the rules say they can take almost any form, like a massive chainaxe! Check out this simple but awesome conversion using Gabriel Seth... http://thepaintingbunker.com/2014/08/24/world-eaters-xii-legion-update/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313002-shabran-darr-and-istvaan-loyalists/#findComment-4158991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfOfHorus Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 If you read Book 1; you'll notice that the Loyalist WE went just as insane as their Traitor brethren. Rage, Hatred and free Chainaxes for your Tacs is why you play WE, you are handicapping yourself pretty severely and a Librarian won't change that. I'd stick with your theme, just take full advantage of the WE traits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313002-shabran-darr-and-istvaan-loyalists/#findComment-4159292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I have read book 1 and I disagree on a couple points there. Librarians don't offer the *exact* same benefits as a traitor force using Blood Madness and the Berzerker Assault rite, but they offer similar benefits that are in many cases better and far more flexible. Doubly so if you're facing another army without any Psykers themselves. I won't argue that having Hatred can help since it can't be denied, but there are some pretty nasty powers or power combos that are much better. There are dozens of options that having Libbies will open up, but for the sake of brevity, let's look at the comparison for Hatred from Berzerker Assault. Prescience works for shooting, on more than one round and functions even in your own deployment zone. That's just the Primaris power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313002-shabran-darr-and-istvaan-loyalists/#findComment-4159332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 "A world eaters army representing a traitor force... may... exchange Bloodlust... for Blood Madness" It's an illegality if you're taking Shabran Darr, unless you're homebrewing. If you're building a traitor list but calling them loyalists... fair play. YMMV within the local meta, but what the rules do and say are in opposite to allowing you to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313002-shabran-darr-and-istvaan-loyalists/#findComment-4159345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfOfHorus Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 · Hidden by Flint13, August 30, 2015 - Frater attack Hidden by Flint13, August 30, 2015 - Frater attack Read that :cuss again Hesh, it says in both the Shabran section and the Blood Madness is that the restriction is for for Campaigns and the :cussing comparison to My Little Pony is idiotic, most pick up games don't give a :cuss about fluff. Would you say the same if someone wanted to play Traitor Ultramarines? Herpa dur that's not fluffy, doesn't matter, I highly doubt any good Tournament organizer would refuse his lists just because the fluff (the :cuss that doesn't matter on the table) he has written makes them Loyalists. Back to the OP. There is no point shooting your in the foot just because of Campaign restrictions, you will get bored of that army very quickly because of the lack options and you'll suffer to likes of IH, AL players because they have flat out better rules. Take advantage of all of your options. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313002-shabran-darr-and-istvaan-loyalists/#findComment-4159448
WolfOfHorus Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 The fluff can dictate how you play, if you it fits your fancy. By all means build WE, but don't handicap yourself unnecessarily. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313002-shabran-darr-and-istvaan-loyalists/#findComment-4159490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 · Hidden by Flint13, August 30, 2015 - No reason given Hidden by Flint13, August 30, 2015 - No reason given Might as well just play Raven Guard or Alpha Legion then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313002-shabran-darr-and-istvaan-loyalists/#findComment-4159663
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