Low Model Count Allies for Cohort Cybernetica

[mmimzie]

So i've been running my Cohort Cybernetica and loving it. Currently I have a chunk of Skits containing ironstride and MSU arc Rifle units that support they cybernetica in a lot of the formations weak spots.

 

I was wondering if their was anything else I could use that maybe has a smaller model count??

 

The weakness of Cohort is that they are slow. They don't scout and you more or less never want them to run because you have to get value out of every turn of shooting. Also Cohort really doesn't like Armies that are plastic wrapped in transports as it's a big waste to their shooting power.

 

So i need something mobile for objective capturing, and that can deal with tanks. Knights could do this, but i also want friends lmao!! Kastelan and KNights seem really mean :P.

 

Maybe their are armored formations?/ or dreadnought formations?? I don't own other codex's so I don't really know what other options i might have.

[DeStinyFiSh]

Knights or Sicarians, maybe the Killclade is fun, depending on the size of the game.

[Nikhil83]

An idea I've been thinking about that may be of interest is a combined force of marine scouts and land speeders. Scouts are now WS/BS 4 for the same points; they can take a land speeder storm as a transport, which has a blind weapon to provide some disruption as your back line moves up, and can also be given a multimelta for tank hunting. So something like: 3 scout squads in storms (as troop choices), 3 more standard land speeders (fast attack), is a ton of disruption for a very very low points investment. HQ can be whatever you'd like. Also, scout bikes can infiltrate and have pretty solid armament choices, so those are another option for the forward group.

[N1SB]

Hi, how're you?  This is a relatively short post, but it's a question I debated a long time with my friends.  The question is almost exactly as follows, regarding Ad Mech:

 

 

So i need something mobile for objective capturing, and that can deal with tanks.

 

My humble answer, after analysing from many angles, usually comes back to something very boring:

 

Space Marines.  In a CAD, Allied Detachment or the new Demi-Company (basically a relatively large formation that gives everyone Objective Secured).  Their new formations offer interesting ways to kill your enemies, but no better than other Ad Mech units (i.e. Anti-Tank, the Kataphron Breachers are actually really good for their points value.)

 

(Loyalist) Space Marines can be outdone in other areas, but their competitive advantage is they're IMHO the best at taking and holding Objectives.  The combination of Toughness 4, Power Armour, then enhanced by ATSKNF plus the cheapest Objective Secured Dedicated Transport (the other being the Ork Trukk) makes them a Total Package of Objective Securing.  As long as 1 Marine or their Rhino survives, you Secure or simply deny an Objective.

 

(The other contender is the Imperial Knights Household with Objective Securing Knight Titans...but I don't want to go that far.)

 

The Tried & True package of 10 Tactical Marines with a Meltagun, Sgt with Meltabombs, with a Rhino remains because it's still the best at what it does IMHO for its points.

 

This is after experimenting with things like Black Templar squads that can get Land Raiders as Objective Secured Dedicated Transports.  Aside from being good at Securing Objectives, they also simply threaten the opponent's Vehicles, so that they don't dare rush up.  A lot of times the presence of a Meltagun and Meltabombs, with Krak Grenades for all, make opponents shy back, play more defensively with their tanks (if they don't, they regret it).

 

We considered Space Marine Scouts, Imperial Guard, Tempestus Scions, etc.  As boring as it is, Tac Marines really are the tidiest package.

 

To validate that, after much experimentation, I'm building up my force of Ad Mech (incl. Kataphrons and a Kastellan Maniple) with a simple detachment of Iron Hands Space Marines (Librarian and 2 Tac Squads w/ Meltagun, Meltabombs, Rhinos).  My humble suggestion?  Watch the veteran Space Marine players at your FLGS.  Their HQ with all the awesome relics and stuff might get the glory, but in my experience, the humble Tac Squads win the game, by simply not being all dead.

 

For dedicated Anti-Tank, IMHO the Ad Mech codex offers some really good choices, no need to look outside the box on that one.

[N1SB]

An idea I've been thinking about that may be of interest is a combined force of marine scouts and land speeders. Scouts are now WS/BS 4 for the same points; they can take a land speeder storm as a transport, which has a blind weapon to provide some disruption as your back line moves up, and can also be given a multimelta for tank hunting. So something like: 3 scout squads in storms (as troop choices), 3 more standard land speeders (fast attack), is a ton of disruption for a very very low points investment. HQ can be whatever you'd like. Also, scout bikes can infiltrate and have pretty solid armament choices, so those are another option for the forward group.

 

I've been thinking that too due to the improved Scouts!  You might well be right, the only things that hold me back is 3+ vs. 4+ still seems to matter and the Landspeeder Storm only holds 5 Scouts.  I just saw this post after my post advocating Tac Squads in Rhinos, but I honestly do feel Scouts are riskier atm.

[Nikhil83]

Oh yes, scouts are absolutely riskier than a tac squad. He does gain a lot in tactical flexibility with the speeder-heavy route though, and he mentioned he wants mobility and anti-tank. Dropping the small scout squads out, then having the obsec speeders run around popping tanks if necessary, would give a lot of flexibility in putting power where he needs it for objective-grabbing. The slow-and-steady elements of the ad mech would bring up the rear fire support, and I'd imagine the combination would make for some pretty brutal target saturation.It's really a trade-off of survivability versus giving them too many threats to combat effectively - a scout squad in a MM-armed storm is 105 points; that's the same as a rhino tac squad sans upgrades. Though the rhino is more survivable than the speeder it's also not an offensive threat (though they need to cap it on obsec grounds at some point).

 

What I'm thinking about for my own usage is something along the lines of: 3 scout squads in storms with MM, 1 land speeder with HB, one with HB + Assault Cannon, one Typhoon. All of that (6 light vehicles with jink and 15 men) comes in at under 500 points. Throwing something like that at them on the front line with the robots coming up the backfield makes it extremely dangerous to ignore either aspect of the army, and it's unlikely that they have enough mid-range weaponry to stop all of that in time in a smaller game.

 

That being said, as you scale upward I would also add more traditional-but-still-mobile marine elements. So tac squads in rhinos or drop pods as suggested, and maybe a squad in a storm raven that also drops a dreadnought on their back line.

[mmimzie]

I actually love both of your ideas.

 

I really like the tac squads in boxs alot. I think they do good things, but they do it for too high a price when also fitted with anti tank, and maybe slower?? Definitly very sturdy, and probably best with obj sec

 

The scouts are fast, inexpensive, and aggressive. I don't know how great objective secured might be, but it could be really good for taking turn 1 or 2 enemy side objectives. I've never been the biggest objective secured fan. I guess i jsut haven't  been in a situation where it has matter negatively or positively.

 

I think the scouts do the job best. I think the cohort is mainly just worried about popping transports fast and early. So you don't waste the first 2 turns of shooting. After that the cohort is either in range to charge and kill anything or the enemy has disembarked most transports.

 

So i was wondering would the be best way to take them:

 

In allied detachment. I'd need an HQ and some where to stick the HQ. So that a unit of bikes. The bike unit wouldn't be so bad. Would also look really cool if i made rustalker bikers ^.^. On top of that i'd only need to get a few scouts and then i could run vanilla land speeders where i can afford it.

 

What about 10th company speeders, I don't know if this works so let me know. I was thinking you could take the scout squads with speeders all with meltas. I'd lose objective support and a speeder from your idea nikihil83 but i'll get 10 more dudes, and the whole formation gets stealth until i make it do something??? That with jink is a 3+ cover save out in the open??

[Nikhil83]

So just using a 10th company formation, where every landspeeder is a storm tied to a scout squad? Should be fine, and if you don't value obsec then the benefits are certainly a bigger perk, mitigating damage if you don't get first turn.

 

Scout bikes are nice yes; I'd go with astartes grenade launchers mounted on the bikes. The downside is that I'm pretty sure they're forced to take cluster mines in the formation, so 1) it's a bit of a crap points sink and 2) the sink increases in cost the more units of bikes you have, which pushes you toward larger scout bike squads instead of small groups (which would be a better idea). So I would think twice about bringing bikes if you take the 2nd option; CAD or allied detachments would be a better bet.

[mmimzie]

Yeah i'd only take the bikes in CAD or Allied,, and more as just a place for an HQ to hang out.

[N1SB]

I've been thinking about this more and I, too, now agree Scouts are more likely to be what you're looking for.

Tacs in Rhinos are a bit of an anvil. Scouts in Land Speeders are much more of a hammer. You don't need more anvils; the Cohort is about as anvil as you can get. Scouts in Land Speeder Storms that Sgts with Meltabombs can assault from, are a great hammer. Since you're looking for something to complement your Cohort, there you go with Scouts.

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I also read your post and how you favour Objective Secured less than I do. THAT also weighed on my previous suggestion.

The way I like to think about it is, there's 2 approaches, both valid: "play" the enemy army or "play" the board/objectives. "Playing" the enemy army means you're dealing with his forces, kill them dead. "Playing" the board means I decide which objectives I want my units to take, then get there and hold the line. Equally valid! It just happens you lean towards the former, I the latter.

The 10th Company Formation is exactly what you're looking for. 3 to 5 Scout Squads or Scout Bikers, any combo. You buy Land Speeder Storms with the Scout Squads, can upgrade them with Multimeltas. It doesn't need a HQ unit (so you save points there), but does not get Objective Secured. However, you do essentially get Stealth until you do something, plus when you open fire, you get Precision Shots to pick off enemy commanders hidden in squads, etc.

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Space Marine Bikers is also an interesting idea. Between them and Scouts, though, I think Scouts are better suited to your needs, especially with their Land Speeder Storms.

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My only lingering concern: if I were to face your army, between the Cohort and your Scouts, I'd always target the Scouts. I'd see them as the more achievable kills (because the Cohort is so durable I feel I'm wasting shots) and they pose the more immediate threat (a Multimelta in my face due to their infiltrating and speed makes them the priority).

However, reading the above...I think that represents to you Acceptable Losses. So that's not a problem either . Just something to keep in mind with the Cold Calculus of War.

[GogglesDown]

Some Thallax would be fast, scoring, deep strikeable, tough, and low model count. Lightning guns and a Multi-Melta would make short work of any transports. You can use some of your existing forces to bodyguard your allied Magos.

 

The Mechanicum also just got their red book up for pre order from forgeworld and you can get free shipping on your order if you get two sets of Thallax, Magos of choice, and the book.

[Frater Cornelius]

Been facing a pretty nasty Cohort + Plasma Kataphron + Knights list lately. One Plasma unit hides in a Bastion, the other goes with a Dominus and both usually benefit from an Ammo Dump. Loads of dakka, very low model-count and pretty damn brutal.

[Nikhil83]

You'd ideally want to flush them out and have the firepower and CC combat power to finish them off once that's done. If we're talking Marine CAD allies, what about Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods? The whole speeder-storm thing should cover you multi-melta-wise; the Dreads could provide a good # of CC attacks along with anti-infantry weaponry.

[mmimzie]

Speeders also deal with both of these, and the units could sport a missile launcher(but i don't think this can be used if you move?), and combi melta. Dealing with the early transport of 2+ save threats, and then doubling thier foot print to claim objective. The units could be protected by a turn of Stealth/jink, or increase scoring power with Obj Sec. Could alpha strike 5 armoured units and then morphs into 10 effective scoring units. Units infiltrate/scout 

 

Immersturm Suggest Kataphrons and a knight. I'd get better canticles, and the knight could run around getting objectives to an extent. This is definitly the might makes right approve. I wouldn't expect anything less from good ol' Immersturm. Deals with everything, but is lack luster when it comes to scoring, and doesn't fit into lower point games too well. Though i think a really great option to pair with cohort.

 

Both option look great. I had two more to roll by you guys:

First is one that's alittle obvious. Skittari. Which is what I have been using. It has AA, anti tank, and decent speed.

+Lone Lascannon Ironstriders fast, AA, Scout, Fire across the table

+Dragoon units, Fast, CC unit, Breaks heavy armour tanks

+Vanguards to fill up the rest of the list. Good clean up unit.

+8 scoring units for 680 points (6 fast 2 slow)

-Low AP 2??

 

 

 

Second... and i can't believe i didn't think of this the second you guys said speeders:

Ravenwing strike force,

-You Waste a few points on a librarian,but i guess you get a dispell dice a turn? 

-no scout

-no AA

+You get 8-9 speeders easily. (Always 10 fast scoring units.)

+With so many speeders Double Melta Speeders

+So many speeders you could get Heavy bolter speeders and glance transports down.

+Many Very fast scoring units.

+The speeders are tough cookies rerolling jink saves all game long.

+Darkshroud everything on top of that?? Maybe not as useful with out attacking units that don't already cause fear.

>Would it be worth it to have most of the speeders with heavy bolter. Makes them more flexible, but makes melta speeders more appealing targets. Maybe make them half bolter. half melta??

 

Thoughts on these two??

 

honroable mentions:

Armored Task force formation from Space marines. Bunch of las preds. Iron Hands Fluff.

Dreadnaught Pod Squad.

Grav Bike Hit squad (Thanks to Not 1 Step Backwards)

Tac Rhinos

[GogglesDown]

Raven wing is strong. You need to take Samael as your HQ until an errata. Land spreader vengeance are good now too.

[Nikhil83]

Skitarii + Cult Mech has been talked to death; without transports etc. it's not going to fill the roles you want it to fill. However if you still go that route I would forego lascannon ironstriders because they're points-inefficient for the fragility. Trust in the infantry (and their special weaps) to balance out your shortcomings.

 

Straight speeders, without scouts, could be very badass and thematic. It doesn't solve your small-army-size problem though, and they're not going to really tarpit anything. They'll take reasonable chunks out of the enemy before they hit your cult mech back line but I don't see you being able to control tempo as well as you would with actual squads dropping in.

[mmimzie]

I think I'll go with the 10th company for now. I'm gonna make some custom speeder out of drop pods. I'll call them mobile weapons platforms. Then use my vanguards for scouts. That way us a cheap and nice looking way to try out the idea.

 

Then maybe I'll make 5 more if I think I'd want more hard hitting speeders.

 

I wanna try the scouts because I really don't like most boot troops and I wanna see if maybe they'll prove themselves useful lmao.

[Nikhil83]

Well if you dislike them from the start they won't perform well for you because you'll throw them away too aggressively. Remember how fragile they are and you should be fine!

[mmimzie]

Haven't pulled any triggered on getting anything just yet, but what about the Skyhammer Annihilation Force. Give me anti- armour, and another CC unit.  Only down side is all the models, but i think it might be pretty good? Plus, while not mobile i'll get to drop things around the map?? Also the ASM have jet packs???

[Frater Cornelius]

Not a fan of Skyhammer without more drop pods. ASM are pretty ineffectual, making them a tax with some usefulness. Not good enough, if you ask me. And if the opponent goes first and everything bar the Cohort is in reserve, they will take a major beating and the Skyhammer needs to pull the game.

Skyhammer works great when combined with UM Pod Alpha Strike or even SW Pod lists, but not to enhance a ground army.