helterskelter Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Something I've fancied a conversation about for some time now, is how the Primarchs deal with their sons when they failed/didn't perform well/were very naughty boys, and how this then reflects itself in how the astartes behave. Examples being Perturbo and his decimation, Curze's gangland painting the hands red, lion el sending a chunk of his chaps back home. Now in two of the above examples, the idea is got pretty swift you serve me well, or you die, which, for some reason in a place where the astartes don't fear death, is a pretty good motivator. However the loyal lion basically caused schism and dissent, not the desired result I'm sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 From a psychological perspective, the idea of one's own death is a pretty normal thing for Astartes, so using it as punishment wouldn't raise too many eyebrows, but being barred from combat, such as the Lion did to the disfavored, would be a terrible thing. Plus, the latter effectively groups the naughties into their own faction. Same sorta problem we have with some modern prisons, I suppose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4159094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammer of Olympia Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Something I've fancied a conversation about for some time now, is how the Primarchs deal with their sons when they failed/didn't perform well/were very naughty boys, and how this then reflects itself in how the astartes behave. Examples being Perturbo and his decimation, Curze's gangland painting the hands red, lion el sending a chunk of his chaps back home. Now in two of the above examples, the idea is got pretty swift you serve me well, or you die, which, for some reason in a place where the astartes don't fear death, is a pretty good motivator. However the loyal lion basically caused schism and dissent, not the desired result I'm sure. well,based on the White Scars, the Khan offers 2 choices for the traitor Scars,they either redeem themselves by being on the front lines,and sent away on cruisers to seek the traitors (and mostly died on their task) or they are executed personally by the Khan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4159202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegriss Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I think it is less a fear of death but the finality of it. If you die as a failure you are beyond redemption and will always be a failure for all time so I think it's less a fear of dieing and more of a rejection of the type of death that the primarchs are trying to use to motivate there sons but it seems the most extreme primarchs have the least success . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4159298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I know guilliman would have them marked for censure, then give them a firm talking to. I think horus, pre corruption, would be the same. He seemed like a generally nice guy so i would think he wouldnt get too overboard in terms of punishment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4159314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 A lot of failures or insubordinates were sent into the ranks of the Destroyers to serve out a punishment. That alone was more or less a death sentence. Then again, other Legions were more accepting of the Destroyer Cadres, so not sure how they would be dealt with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4159596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raktra Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Fairly certain Ferrus either forced them to become Medusan Immortals or sent them to serve under Autek Mor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4160099 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I think it is less a fear of death but the finality of it. If you die as a failure you are beyond redemption and will always be a failure for all time so I think it's less a fear of dieing and more of a rejection of the type of death that the primarchs are trying to use to motivate there sons but it seems the most extreme primarchs have the least success . This is what I think. An astartes lives to fight, to serve. They may not fear death, but that doesn't mean they don't want to live. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4160116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 The Lion has also been known to judo-chop someone's head off, but we don't really like to speak about that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4160236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 The Lion has also been known to judo-chop someone's head off, but we don't really like to speak about that. First rule about Nemiel club, we never talk about Nemiel club. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4160264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Why did that come up again Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4160381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
goosey_j Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 That piece of writing was so :cuss. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4160422 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Corax sent his brutal terrans into the predation fleets. And he also put the terrans on the front lines, by the time the heresy broke out most of the terrans were dead, or wandering the stars doing their own thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4160561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Corax sent his brutal terrans into the predation fleets. And he also put the terrans on the front lines, by the time the heresy broke out most of the terrans were dead, or wandering the stars doing their own thing. Well he was forced to put his men on the front line at Gate wherever, he didn't want to. The fact it was mostly Terrans was because they volunteered to do it. And Corax led them himself, so it's not as heartless as he just threw them into a meat grinder. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4160791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Angel Scout Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 The following could be viewed as dealing with failure Dorn locks them away or the silent treatment: Librarians/Sigismund Sanguinius sends them on learning opportunities: Azkellon/Raldoron Magnus banished Ahriman Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4162830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted September 5, 2015 Share Posted September 5, 2015 Corax sent his brutal terrans into the predation fleets. And he also put the terrans on the front lines, by the time the heresy broke out most of the terrans were dead, or wandering the stars doing their own thing.Well he was forced to put his men on the front line at Gate wherever, he didn't want to. The fact it was mostly Terrans was because they volunteered to do it. And Corax led them himself, so it's not as heartless as he just threw them into a meat grinder. Wasn't it the Terrans who made up the deliverers (name?) too? The TDA section of the RG? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4164318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted September 5, 2015 Share Posted September 5, 2015 Yeah but I think they were used less after Corax took over. There were still Terrans in the RG at the outbreak of the Heresy. Also there were certain members of his group of freedom fighters he didn't fully trust. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4164398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Thirst Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 The Lion has also been known to judo-chop someone's head off, but we don't really like to speak about that. First rule about Nemiel club, we never talk about Nemiel club. http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee410/TheRedThirst/the_primarchs__i_fought_the_law_by_vangarshriek-d5ttucm_zpsfpcwuur9.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4166280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoogleusMaximus Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Honestly the punishments also seem to reflect the mentality of the legion... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4166911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Corax sent his brutal terrans into the predation fleets. And he also put the terrans on the front lines, by the time the heresy broke out most of the terrans were dead, or wandering the stars doing their own thing.Well he was forced to put his men on the front line at Gate wherever, he didn't want to. The fact it was mostly Terrans was because they volunteered to do it. And Corax led them himself, so it's not as heartless as he just threw them into a meat grinder.Wasn't it the Terrans who made up the deliverers (name?) too? The TDA section of the RG? From what I recall this is true. They are the more level headed terrans that were kept around and not sent to the predation fleets. However due to Corax's way of making war their original duty to protect their primarch saw them rarely used as his body guards and more as the hammer blow to bring death upon the legions foes in a brutal fashion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4167129 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 It does say most were sent to distant Crusade fleets, which likely meant nomad-predation fleets. And they were not originally bodyguard units, except that Horus had once honored them by including them in his "personal entourage" for a time. Aside from that example, their purpose was concentrated to counterattacks and shock assault. When the line began to flounder, they would show up and 'deliver.' Their information can be found on pg 137 of Extinction. Edit: Shadow Wardens was the name of his oft-abandoned bodyguard unit. Found them on the next page. A Deliverance-born unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4167266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I'm curious as to how Magnus would punish any of his legion, there haven't seem to have been any cases so far. Maybe strip them of their temple rank? Is it possible like, dare I say it, Star Wars where you can be stripped of your psychic power? That would mean almost death to any self respecting TS. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4167430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Only example I am immediately aware of is his banishment of Ahriman over the Rubric. But, circumstances and context would be different if the failure is during Imperial Legion days. He is known to favor some schools of psykery over others in spite of his mastery of all, and this favor can supposedly be fleeting. Perhaps there is something in that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4167436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkApostle7 Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Lorgar doesnt punnish, because the word bearers are too loyal to him, the only thing bad is over zealousness wich results in calth.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4177753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raktra Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Lorgar doesnt punnish, because the word bearers are too loyal to him, the only thing bad is over zealousness wich results in calth.... I dunno, I'd call "setting Khârn on you" a pretty solid punishment for Erebus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313035-how-primarchs-dealt-with-their-sons/#findComment-4177762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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