A question on heresy-era heavy weapons

[KBA]

I've been trying to dig up info on heavy weapons for the legions and have come up dry - specifically if and when the newer patterns (40K style) saw use. More specifically, plasma cannons. Any help/discussion on this would be appreciated :)

[Charlo]

I imagine the new (40k style) ones will be some kind of Forge World's pattern that will become widespread either during or after the Heresy.

 

I'm sure when they are it'll be covered in a Forge World book. Currently though I don't think the style change is really acknowledged in the fluff as it's more of a modelling thing, with the older style now being attached to the Heresy.

[Daemon2027]

I would say the the plastic weapons in the 40k kits are just a different pattern, and would be totally fine for 30k.

[Atia]

I would say the the plastic weapons in the 40k kits are just a different pattern, and would be totally fine for 30k.

this :)

 

afaik the FW variants are a Ryza pattern - Sunspite for the plasma pistol f.e.

[DuskRaider]

Honestly, I think the plastic 40K Plasma Cannon looks much better than the 30K variant sold by FW... I just with the GW one didn't have the arm molded into it.

[KBA]

Thanks guys (and girls).

 

Kind of what my gut was telling me. Good to know! More variation in the heavy weapons squad of the same heavy will be nice to spice things up visually. And I'm a huge sucker for that bulbous, clunky FW plasma cannon :)

[RandomMarine]

Gw plastics are mars pattern variants in vehicles so I imagine the same apllies to weapons

[apologist]

The pattern system

I think the general convention is that stuff produced by GW's studio is termed 'Mars pattern' (though there are numerous exceptions to this), as a tongue-in-cheek real world joke that their stuff is most widely known and spread.

Forge World tend to identify their versions of things with specific Forgeworld labels, which sometimes have links either to real life or in-universe lore. For example, page 17 of Massacre labels the Forgeworld shoulder-mounted heavy weapon variants as 'Sol Militaris pattern'. These are styled after the Rogue Trader heavy weapons, so I would guess that the designers wanted to make them sound earlier in-universe versions of the current GW plastics. Since 'Mars-pattern' was already taken, they opted for 'Sol Militaris-pattern', which implies that it's an alternative version used during the Unification Wars, perhaps even developed before the Treaty of Mars.

Similarly, the Deimos pattern Predator is aesthetically similar to the Rogue Trader one; and the Phobos pattern similar to the plastic boltguns released in second edition. As references to Mars' moons, they gain the suggestion of being older types than (say) the Tigrus pattern.

Beware of treating this as a general rule, though. The Mark system is far from consistent (after all, I imagine it's a bit of in-joke fun for the team as much as anything else). For example, the FW boltguns styled after the Rogue Trader ones aren't Sol Militaris or Phobos, but 'Umbra-pattern'.

For this reason, you're pretty safe whatever you decide to term things. If you like research, it might be quite fun to read the FW HH books for specific examples; or you could simply look at shared aesthetics. For example, as far as I'm aware the FW shoulder-mounted missile launcher, which is based on the plastic RT version, doesn't have a 'canonical' pattern (if you're concerned about that sort of thing). You might choose to call it Sol Militaris-pattern, or you might call it Scorpios-pattern, since it shares aesthetics with the FW Whirlwind artillery tank.

The mark system

This is complicated a bit by the GW studios also running a sporadically-used 'Mark' system. For example, the original release of the current plastic Land Raider had artwork that noted it was the 'Mark III'. I'm afraid I can't find an example of the Land Raider, but the Immolator here shows an example of the box artwork style:

Mark system example

I believe the system was retconned in as an homage to every version of a particular vehicle developed in-house and released – with subcategories being marked with a letter. For example, while the prototype Land Raider appeared as a kitbash in Rogue Trader, the Mark I was the first plastic release, and the Mark II appeared in Epic Armageddon. Forgeworld got in on this with the Mark IIb (implying the Epic version was IIa) conversion kit, which made the current plastic look like the Epic version. The 'IIa' never appeared in 40k scale, though there were hints in the release coverage in White Dwarf at the time – a version based on the Epic Mark II was developed but scrapped. The current plastic was released as the Mark III. (For completeness' sake, there was both a metal version and a later plastic version of the Mark I Land Raider; which can presumably be labelled Marks 1b and 1c respetively.)

These are sometimes combined, and sometime applied after the fact. For example, the FW Rhino is labelled the 'Mk1C Deimos Pattern Rhino'. Mark I was the original plastic 40k tank, Mark II the current follow-up. Mark Ib can therefore be guessed to be the plastic Epic version.

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Anyway, that's all rather besides the point! In-universe, I would suggest that virtually all of the patterns available in 40k are available in 30k – it's simply that the distribution was more patchy. As a result, an army might be supplied purely by (say) the Forgeworld Accatran, or Tigrus; and its weapons would be uniformly based on those. Equally an army might have supplies from different Forgeworlds. Ryza is a renowned for its plasma weaponry, for example, so a well-supplied army might have its plasma weaponry supplied by them, while another is left with the less refined Sol Militaris or Mars pattern plasma weapons.

There are a few examples of new weapons being developed since the Heresy, but these are rare. The prevalance of the Mars-pattern in 40k can be attributed to the loss of specialised Forgeworlds, or the increasing conversatism of the Adeptus Mechanicus; giving out manufacturing rights to, and distributing knowledge of, only the most generic type – Mars-pattern.

Adding diversity in weaponry to your 30k army is a neat way to show that the Imperium is still innovating and organising itself a little prior to the Horus Heresy; while using a restricted range in 40k helps to highlight the backwards-looking and crumbling nature of the Imperium.

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Coo, sorry for the wall of text! Hope it's useful

[Legatus]

The different weaponry of the traitor Legions was described in the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos. Though this was mostly ignored in the development of FW's Horus Heresy material.

 

"When the Legions began re-equipping, a number of weapons which would come to be in common use later were still experimental or even purely theoretical. Many other weapons relied on sciences that were barely understood but which had been found in ancient vaults of dark technology and copied for general use. For example, the Traitor Legions had no access to Melta bombs or multi-meltas, but melta-guns were commonly available. Likewise, portable (though dangerous) plasma guns and even pistols existed but the heavy plasma gun [note: today known as 'plasma cannon'] could only be mounted on a Dreadnought or a vehicle.

 

As a result the Legions were most heavily equipped with weapons which were well understood, solid and reliable. Autocannon were favoured as simple but deadly weapons that could easily carried by a Space Marine in power armour. Heavy bolters could cut a swathe through any enemy troops, though they lacked the Hellfire shells the Adeptus mechanicus developed ten millennia later to kill the genetically enhanced Tyranids.

 

Lascannon remained in use as the faithful tank killers they always had been and missile launchers were widely used because they could destroy both vehicles and troops with their different missiles, although Melta missiles were still unknown at the time. Targeters were bulky and prone to malfunctions so most heavy weapons were not fitted with them.

 

Conversely, the Space Marine Legions at the time of the Horus Heresy used a more diverse variety of assault weapons from the Crusade, including power maces and chain-axes which have become virtually unknown in the Imperium in the 41st millennium. Power swords were an exception to this as the secrets of their manufacture were still lost, making any that were uncovered rare and valued artefacts. Blind grenades, Photon flares and Melta bombs were also exceptionally rare and seldom seen on the battlefield.

 

The weaponry used by Terminator squads was very different during the Heresy as tactical Dreadnought armour was still under development at that time. Only after centuries more warfare did Terminators emerge armed with the Assault cannon, storm bolters, Cyclone missile launchers and Thunder Hammers which became their hallmark within the Imperium."

- 2nd Edition Codex Chaos, p. 71-72

 

 

Note that specifically plasma cannons (in 2nd Edition universally referred to as 'heavy plasma guns') were not available for infantry units at the time of the Heresy. They were only available mounted on vehicles. No Codex Chaos Space Marines since 2nd Edition has included the option of plasma cannons for Chaos Space Marine squads or Havoc squads, including the most recent 6th Edition Codex. (Though some of the other restricted items have since been added to their lists, like melta bombs and multi-meltas for Dreadnoughts.) Yet plasma cannons are an option given to heavy support squads FW's Horus Heresy Crusade Legion army list.

[Charlo]

This innocent little thread is coming up with some top quality fluff! Keep it up :)