40k Heresy release fears

[v6v77]

Greetings brothers and sisters of the heresy.

 

This thread is mainly going to be for people to discuss (and hopefully alleviate) possible fears over the upcoming 40k HH crossover release.

 

I say this because i personally am worried what the GW core team will do to the heresy we know and love. We have these rich characters and (reasonably) well thought out rules and structures and i fear its all gonna go the way of recent 40k stuff. Formations everywhere and monobuild army structures.

 

If its just me with these thoughts then the mods can close the thread.

 

If others feel the same or can offer evidence or reasoned discussion as to why we shouldnt fear then let the discussion commence.

 

Hydra dominatus

 

V

[Marshal Loss]

At the moment, we simply don't know enough about the release to rule judgement, being hysterical (not saying you are hysterical) will not help anybody. I'm worried GW will take over the books/narrative from FW but we can only wait and see.

 

Most agree that GW taking over the basic infantry will allow a cheaper entry point to an extremely expensive hobby. Who knows, this could potentially be great for FW - more time to do the transfers characters, elite units and books that make the heresy what it is.

[Joe]

Frankly, I can't see it being anymore than a limited edition release, ala Dark Vengeance. Games Workshop are prone to mistakes, however they aren't stupid; the most we could expect from this is 'entry level' plastic sets for certain units.

 

I'd be more concerned about the 30th Anniversary in 2017.

[1000 Sons]

If by crossover you mean the HH board game I wouldn't worry about that.  The rules in that box are specifically designed to be used only for that game, but the models 'just happen' to be useable for both hh and 40k. If anything it will just attract more people to want to play hh with a more friendly buy in price. Think of it more as a gateway resin crack addiction tool, to help people get off plastic.

 

Aren't Rites of War just a different name for formations, use these certain units and get X bonus' for doing it ?  Again I wouldn't worry about it, people don't like formations in 40k because it is change and some thing new that not every army has access to in equal measures or effect. 30k on the other hand began life with the formations already built in, you can use the general formations available to all armies or the legion specific ones. 

 

Monobuilds is more a result of people who want to play competitive or just want to win.  Certain units or armies are going to be better than others, but do you want to build your legion or do you just want to build a winning list ?  If you see the rise of competitive 30k tournaments popping all over then you will get the splintering of communities that you have currently in 40k where people either play the crazy tourney list, or soft fluffy lists that get tabled in 2 turns.

 

I think in the long run 30k is safe until the siege of terra, even gw knows they got a good thing going and to not play with it too much.  After the siege I could see some new rules for playing the scouring, but that is quite a few years down the road. 

[Marshal Rohr]

The rumors about it being a hex based board game are alleviating my fears.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Many of us share the same fears that GW will mess this up, but let's try not to let this thread get out of hand. Any hard core GW bashing/complaining starts up and I'm killing this.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Aren't Rites of War just a different name for formations, use these certain units and get X bonus' for doing it ?  Again I wouldn't worry about it, people don't like formations in 40k because it is change and some thing new that not every army has access to in equal measures or effect. 30k on the other hand began life with the formations already built in, you can use the general formations available to all armies or the legion specific ones. 

 

Rites of War certainly are not formations.

 

Formations are an incentive to buy models, often whatever web-bundle GW just made; you simply need to play with the required models and you get a slew of bonuses for free. They also break the remains of the Force Organization Chart and the concept of limitation.

 

Rites of War are there to open up new play styles and list builds. They will often also grant some sort of bonus rules or a FOC swap, but unlike formations they all come with restrictions and penalties that range from mild to crippling. Some of the more common ones are no Legion Allies and no Fortifications (which GW would never do, they want you to buy more) and can go to no running, limiting Heavy or Fast to 1 choice, more required Troops, etc...

 

 

 

In terms of new plastics coming out. I like the idea of ease of access, but some of the newer rumors seem to be pretty much every generic unit will be getting a plastic kit (this is BoLS quality though). If this were true then it would undercut forgeworld a ton as the only thing left would be Legion specific kits and the larger tanks

[1000 Sons]

Rites of War certainly are not formations.

 

Formations are an incentive to buy models, often whatever web-bundle GW just made; you simply need to play with the required models and you get a slew of bonuses for free. They also break the remains of the Force Organization Chart and the concept of limitation.

 

Rites of War are there to open up new play styles and list builds. They will often also grant some sort of bonus rules or a FOC swap, but unlike formations they all come with restrictions and penalties that range from mild to crippling. Some of the more common ones are no Legion Allies and no Fortifications (which GW would never do, they want you to buy more) and can go to no running, limiting Heavy or Fast to 1 choice, more required Troops, etc...

 

Formation- buy these units and models and get 'X' effect.

 

Rite of War- buy these units and models and get 'X' effect.

 

So when GW does it is an evil corporation trying to sell you stuff, and when GW does it wearing the fw hat it is a gift for players to more fully enjoy the brilliant game that ascended from heaven to us ?  GW kills the Foc and at the same time puts a limitation on what you play with while at the same time removing all limitations ?  FW instead only swaps the foc, and increase play styles ?  Try to remember that hating GW is also hating fw, they are the same thing no matter how you want to dress it up, nothing gets done in fw with out gw saying yes. 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Rites of War certainly are not formations.

 

Formations are an incentive to buy models, often whatever web-bundle GW just made; you simply need to play with the required models and you get a slew of bonuses for free. They also break the remains of the Force Organization Chart and the concept of limitation.

 

Rites of War are there to open up new play styles and list builds. They will often also grant some sort of bonus rules or a FOC swap, but unlike formations they all come with restrictions and penalties that range from mild to crippling. Some of the more common ones are no Legion Allies and no Fortifications (which GW would never do, they want you to buy more) and can go to no running, limiting Heavy or Fast to 1 choice, more required Troops, etc...

 

 

Formation- buy these units and models and get 'X' effect.

 

Rite of War- buy these units and models and get 'X' effect.

 

So when GW does it is an evil corporation trying to sell you stuff, and when GW does it wearing the fw hat it is a gift for players to more fully enjoy the brilliant game that ascended from heaven to us ?  GW kills the Foc and at the same time puts a limitation on what you play with while at the same time removing all limitations ?  FW instead only swaps the foc, and increase play styles ?  Try to remember that hating GW is also hating fw, they are the same thing no matter how you want to dress it up, nothing gets done in fw with out gw saying yes. 

 

 

Tone down the hyperbole and strawmen.

 

First, I explained the differences between a formation and a RoW and I believe RoWs were more than "use models, get bonuses"; I'd be willing to explain in more detail, but not only is this not the place, you've already disregarded one explanation.

 

Second, while Forgeworld is part of GW and their prices often reflect this fact, they aren't a puppet like you seem to indicate. Why would Alan Bligh write rules that push back against 7ths format. The reason is because the "GW Design Team" and Alan Bligh don't answer to the same people or each other and very different design philosophies. 

 

 

GW kills the Foc and at the same time puts a limitation on what you play with while at the same time removing all limitations ?  FW instead only swaps the foc, and increase play styles ?

 

 Errr... I think I know how you came to this conclusion from what I said, but there's a large misunderstanding to be had if that was the case. To explain; GW has killed the classic FOC with the introduction of detachments (of the non CAD variety and primary/secondary), formations and unbound. If people who are using a CAD do fill out all their heavies and want more, they simply need to take a formation to get around that problem. I don't see a limit being placed

[Raktra]

I have no release fears. Cheaper gateway into a potential second Legion, and nothing is indicating that anything's gonna happen to the FW range.

[DuskRaider]

As much as I despise what GW Main has become in recent years, I have faith that they will leave the game mechanics to FW and that this is seen as 1) a jumping point for the masses to get into 30K, and 2) a way for GW to make FW more mainsteam, along with stocking shelves with FW product. I can only hope this pans out well and we see more acceptance for everything Horus Heresy / Great Crusade. Part of me would like to see GW tackle Xeno races for 30K as well, but with their recent track record I'm a bit nervous about that.

 

Also, let's not forget that the #2 in the company is the head of FW, and I don't think he'd allow GW to take away his baby.

[Remus Ventanus.]

I share very similar concerns. I would hate to see GW eventually take over the HH series and have FW as second in command only making upgrade kits. FW is the reason the HH is what it is, and if GW tries anything, and i mean anything, i will riot.

[Scribe]

 

Rites of War certainly are not formations.

 

Formations are an incentive to buy models, often whatever web-bundle GW just made; you simply need to play with the required models and you get a slew of bonuses for free. They also break the remains of the Force Organization Chart and the concept of limitation.

 

Rites of War are there to open up new play styles and list builds. They will often also grant some sort of bonus rules or a FOC swap, but unlike formations they all come with restrictions and penalties that range from mild to crippling. Some of the more common ones are no Legion Allies and no Fortifications (which GW would never do, they want you to buy more) and can go to no running, limiting Heavy or Fast to 1 choice, more required Troops, etc...

 

Formation- buy these units and models and get 'X' effect.

 

Rite of War- buy these units and models and get 'X' effect.

 

So when GW does it is an evil corporation trying to sell you stuff, and when GW does it wearing the fw hat it is a gift for players to more fully enjoy the brilliant game that ascended from heaven to us ?  GW kills the Foc and at the same time puts a limitation on what you play with while at the same time removing all limitations ?  FW instead only swaps the foc, and increase play styles ?  Try to remember that hating GW is also hating fw, they are the same thing no matter how you want to dress it up, nothing gets done in fw with out gw saying yes. 

 

 

 

RoW are not the same as Formations, the idea may be similar, but they really arent the same and to suggest they are is intellectually dishonest.

 

You know what I dont see in HH 1-4? I dont see 'Rules by GW Design Studio' or the usual suspects. I see different names, a different philosophy, and a different emphasis.

 

Yes, FW, like BL, is under the GW banner, that doesnt count for :cuss to me when I look at the 2 development teams practices and the pretty clear principles both teams are putting into play.

[Brofist]

Me? I'm terrified GW prime will eventually take creative control. That's because I know I'll basically be done with the hobby if it happens. 

 

My group is entirely disenfranchised with Citadel and only got back into the hobby because of 30k. If it diverges enough to loose the current detail and focus I don't see any other outcome, really. We'll always have our armies, but the game group will stagnate and die off. Or we'll pivot to play other games that appeal to us.

[Fangbanger]

Why can't you just carry on playing? ^^

 

You play now and have fun? So even if the whole of FW gets swallowed by GW and turned to :cuss,you will still have all the rules and toys you have now?

 

I really don't get it, nothing is ever going to stop anyone playing the way they do now. If you have the rule set, you could play from 1st edition upwards. Heck, you don't like something make your own house rules?

[Fire Golem]

Why can't you just carry on playing? ^^

You play now and have fun? So even if the whole of FW gets swallowed by GW and turned to :cuss,you will still have all the rules and toys you have now?

I really don't get it, nothing is ever going to stop anyone playing the way they do now. If you have the rule set, you could play from 1st edition upwards. Heck, you don't like something make your own house rules?

Because that only works if you have a gaming group who also want to carry on with those rules. If you rely on pick up games for example, I mean you go try get a pick up game of 2nd edition 40k or something. It'll be much harder than 7th ed. I guess we already have that obstacle already because I don't know how a lot of people feel about pick up games against FW lists, but it might make things even harder if you don't happen to have a 30k gaming group already. It's all well and good you saying 'I don't like this, I'm going to stick with the previous edition', but it means nothing if no one near you does the same.

[Fangbanger]

Yeah...he said him and his group....

[Fire Golem]

I thought you were just talking generally, sorry.

[v6v77]

I would like to thank everyone for their input on this.

 

Its nice to know i am not alone with these fears and that the community is taking a grown up approach to these issues.

 

I do hope the forgeworld team remain in creative control. I am not against GW core making some plastics but FW need to remain THE HH company. Without that control and drive i fear we will lose that control if indirectly.

 

Lets be honest, alot of us play heresy because it is an interesting and diverse ruleset with nice models and a friendly community usually made up of disenfranchised citadel fans.

 

Keep up the on topic non GW bashing discussion.....

 

Kage is watching you.....

[m_r_parker]

Man I hope this thread doesn't get melta'd, there does need to a thread about this but the topic itself is close to peoples hearts and so will always get a bit heated.

 

I land on the 'hope for the best' and want to remain positive, but I do have fears about what level GW will try and take this. I've said it before on different topics, but I am really pleased that there will be some plastic heresy-era miniatures coming out, as this will 1) make it cheaper for the consumer and 2) allow FW to concentrate on casting the non-generic items. I think we've seen on their Monthly Top 10's that MkIV and MkIII sets are continuously on there, so there is plenty of demand for these - and GW are in a perfect position to churn plastic for this (lower level of detail i.e. generic with no Legion identifiers, and a requirement for volume).

 

If the current set of rumours are correct (and I have a giant bag of salt in case) that it's a standalone / limited game in the same light as Execution Force or Space Hulk, then I believe GW have made an error. There are also rumours (even more laden with salt) that other products are being brought into plastic, which shows that they think it's a more mainstream product than limited release - which makes sense. It could be that both are right, and that they're making a hex based version of 40k and supporting it in the long term - which would confuse me greatly (and introduce a dangerous level of salt to my system).

 

I hope that it ends there. GW make some plastic models following the FW design ethos, they're available in GW stores and from their webstore, and we as a community get cheaper models that are more readily available and don't carry the same level of shipping charges. I would literally drop hundreds of pounds at my local GW if that happened, and the spending in my local store would increase over the next few years. I don't care about hex-systems, funky dice, or whatever ruleset gets published with them - I'll just be using the models and will be pleased at that.

 

** Edited - I need to keep my post positive, although what I had orginally written was meant to be positive I can see it taken as negative, and I don't want this thread nuked ***

[GhostMalone]

Seriously guys this doesn't really need to exist everyone has their fears but until there's a 100% confirmation in this release let's not bring such negativity into the forum.

 

I'm all up for a healthy discussion but thus thread is going the same way as the reasons to join Warmaster thread

[Brofist]

I don't feel this is a negative discussion. You can totally love 30k, but not like citadel. People spend lots of time and money on this hobby- it's entirely ok for them to worry about what could happen to something they're deeply invested in :)

Why can't you just carry on playing? ^^

You play now and have fun? So even if the whole of FW gets swallowed by GW and turned to ,you will still have all the rules and toys you have now?

I really don't get it, nothing is ever going to stop anyone playing the way they do now. If you have the rule set, you could play from 1st edition upwards. Heck, you don't like something make your own house rules?

It's not fun to play something over and over again without anything new down the road. We'll loose interest. I'll always have my army, but that's just me. Over time people sell armies, move away, have kids, etc. It'll be hard to bring in new people, so the group will stagnate, shrink, and we'll probably just segway over to other games anyway.

I have no idea if this will happen or when, but I am scared it will because I have a good idea about the outcome for my group.

[Slave to Darkness]

I get new toys to play with so all is good. :tu: If they end up ruining the heresy sure I'll be pissed but its not gonna make me rage quit and burn my army.

[Lord Tharand]

I'm also fearful of a GW take over of Age of Darkness.  The FW creative and design team have put a lot of love and care into the first 5 books.  My fear is that GW would not put that same level of passion into it.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Frankly, I can't see it being anymore than a limited edition release, ala Dark Vengeance. Games Workshop are prone to mistakes, however they aren't stupid; 

You give them too much credit. 

 

Look what happened to Age of Sigmar. Or, more accurately, "Age of What?" And Warhammer Fantasy is now "that game that people used to play when they got bored of 40k".

 

I'm not getting into the ins and outs of whether it was a financial success, because GW have got to prove that Age of Sigmar is worthwhile after the initial release months.