Templar-themed Blood Angels Successor

[Conn Eremon]

Everybody here started off knowing nothing about the lore. It's nothing to be apologetic for. We're here to help with the process, and there is nothing more fun than enlightening new fans to all the lore we love.

 

And hey, don't worry about lore-breaking. My very first and favorite DIY began as a Lost Legion led by the Primarch Corax Russ. It's maybe not perfect as is, but it has grown alongside my own growth within the hobby. So will these Authurian Sanguinians alongside you.

[Skalpynock]

I love the ideas this thread is developing, having myself wandered in the thought of going to the IX^th. One thing I can add, regarding the usage of the cross of saint James, is that a variation (with a fourth fleur de lys instead of a blade at the bottom) is the symbol of the Charnel Guard chapter (which are possibly of Blood Angels descent).

[Doctor Perils]

Thank you again for culling my ignorance before it could spread!

Sorry, I didn't want to "cull" anything.

Is cull the wrong word? In Britain it means to kill off the worst of something, Dictionary.com tells me that there is a separate American meaning. Oops. But don't worry, culling my ignorance is a good thing.

The best known fleur de lys is that of the Sisters of Battle, then the Red Templars (for the chapter). Those both have a bit of back story in the game, but nothing stops you from creating something in the same style after all... but don't just do a straight cross, it's a bit non-descript. However, there's the symbol of the Order of Santiago that could work quite well for you : it's a red sword-shaped cross on a white background. Simplify it a bit for the models, and it should work (not saying easy ^^)

That cross does look quite cool, and it very helpfully ties in both the sword and the Arthurian/Templar theme. You're right, I may need to simplify it a bit, and possibly also make it a bit shorter. Still, great stuff. Thanks for showing it to me.

I would suggest playing around with cross icon, as you might come across a better way to convey what you want than just the straight up symbol.

I have a Chapter, the War Consuls, I wanted to thematically tie to the tumultuous period the Roman Empire underwent in the centuries following everyone's favorite Caesar. What I did for their symbol was to take the Emperor Constantine's device, the Chi-Rho, and modified it to take letters from the Chapter's High Gothic name, the Consuli Bellum, and ended up with the . . . I don't know Chi-Beta, I guess it would be called. It's simple, it isn't immediately recognizable, and it's thematic.

You may be able to do the same. Mess around with the symbol. Add other iconography, or combine. Make it simple. Make it direct.

That's a really clever symbol. I assume that looks like the chi-rho but reflected and rotated 180 degrees. I highly doubt I'll be able to work in that amount of meaning into my symbol, but I get what you're driving at. Thank you.

Sir Perfluous, if you are unsure of details in the lore, feel free to either ask in the Liber Surgery or to ask here instead. You've got some strong ideas and a fantastic attitude, so far. We'd be more than happy to fill you in on any details you want to know.

Thank you! I haven't been playing 40k for a great length of time (though I read up on some of the lore before starting), so I'm a bit of a noob, unfortunately. I have pretty good knowledge of all the basic, foundation stuff but then my knowledge becomes a bit more specific. After I decided to play Blood Angels, I never really refreshed the Dark Angels lore. I'm learning things as I encounter them, though, and hopefully soon I will be proficient enough to answer the lore questions of others.

Cull isn't a wrong word, that's also how I understand it. It just has negative connotations to me.

If you're pretty much starting out, then I think that your fluff knowledge is very good, don't sell yourself short

I love the ideas this thread is developing, having myself wandered in the thought of going to the IX^th. One thing I can add, regarding the usage of the cross of saint James, is that a variation (with a fourth fleur de lys instead of a blade at the bottom) is the symbol of the Charnel Guard chapter (which are possibly of Blood Angels descent).

plus the diamond with the fanged skull and they don't seem to really be that noble.

But yeah, they seem pretty cool, and they are said to be third founding. They could be a sort of "brother" chapter?

[Cèsar de Quart]

Ouch! I've been developing a chapter based on the same Arthurian ideas for years! Only it never occurred to me to have them be Blood Angel successors. 

 

I like that they already have the Grail. I was wondering in my own chapter how to make them actively seek the Grail and what it means to do so, but having the Grail already in their hands is a good escape from that problem.

 

In my Crimson Knights Chapter I've toned down the use of first-line Arthurian names (the Grand Master was called Arthus and the other Masters were Gawan, Galahad, Lancelot...), so that it doesn't look too obvious. But the Blood Angels have always been pompous, so I think using the Golden Age Arthurian names would fit their theme perfectly.

[Sir Perfluous]

Ouch! I've been developing a chapter based on the same Arthurian ideas for years! Only it never occurred to me to have them be Blood Angel successors.

I like that they already have the Grail. I was wondering in my own chapter how to make them actively seek the Grail and what it means to do so, but having the Grail already in their hands is a good escape from that problem.

In my Crimson Knights Chapter I've toned down the use of first-line Arthurian names (the Grand Master was called Arthus and the other Masters were Gawan, Galahad, Lancelot...), so that it doesn't look too obvious. But the Blood Angels have always been pompous, so I think using the Golden Age Arthurian names would fit their theme perfectly.

Haha! A testament to my genius! Though I'll admit, Blood Angels aren't the most obvious of choices, as has already been noted, the parallels that can be drawn are quite extensive. I did things the other way round to you, though. I decided I loved the Blood Angels and their fluff, but wanted a slight spin on it. Eventually I toyed with the Arthurian idea and liked it, it was only after I began constructing the backstory I realised that it actually makes a lot of sense. The thing that makes it seem odd, I suppose, is the fact that Blood Angels are fairly Latin and semi-Biblical in theme, whereas Arthur was originally an old Welsh legend.

I'm still torn between the idea of them still having the Grail or losing it. There is much to support the idea that it has been lost, the Grail quest from the legend, the fact that it doesn't make the chapter too invincible (well, no more than your average seven-foot tall, genetically engineered, power armour-wearing, boltgun-wielding, heretic-burning harbinger of death, anyway) and I have an idea that bases the entire chapter organisation on the search (more on that, probably, later). Yet I still want the Grail rituals to play an active role in their existence. Maybe a lesser Grail remains, but that seems a bit too convenient.

The names are a tricky one. I like the previously suggested ideas of Latinising them (and I love the suggested name Gahaliel), but the original Arthurian names are still great, and there are a huge number to chose from, many of them fairly unfamiliar to your average not-an-arthurian-scholar. I want to steer away from the names Arthur and Lancelot, though, in any form, as they are too well known.

And, just out of curiosity, what gene-seed to your Crimson Knights use? I'd be interested to know how other chapters can fit into the Arthurian theme.

[Conn Eremon]

I hope I don't come across as pushy over the idea, but I am a huge fan of collaborative efforts.

 

There are a lot of avenues available if you guys want to connect your DIYs. It could be as loose as a confraternity of Chapters, connected over a shared reverence of a relic of wider import, if you wanted. It could be as brief as allies in a particular, thematic crusade. Or it could be something that deeply connects your Chapters, binding them together throughout their existence, from something like the Feast of Blades to the Maelstrom Warders.

 

You don't even necessarily need to let it affect your "real" Chapters, and let it be an exercise in 'what if?'

[Sir Perfluous]

I hope I don't come across as pushy over the idea, but I am a huge fan of collaborative efforts.

 

There are a lot of avenues available if you guys want to connect your DIYs. It could be as loose as a confraternity of Chapters, connected over a shared reverence of a relic of wider import, if you wanted. It could be as brief as allies in a particular, thematic crusade. Or it could be something that deeply connects your Chapters, binding them together throughout their existence, from something like the Feast of Blades to the Maelstrom Warders.

 

You don't even necessarily need to let it affect your "real" Chapters, and let it be an exercise in 'what if?'

 

I've been reading some of the other knightly, grail-related threads around, such as yours, Cesar de Quart, and I agree, an exercise in pondering how to connect the chapters could be very interesting, even if we never actually implement any of it. I like the idea of a great, joint crusade. Though as our ideas are scattered all across the Liber, it may be a good idea to start a new thread that collects the ideas in one place. So, Arkangilos, Cesar - whaddaya think? You don't have to, but even if you have pretty set ideas about your chapter backstory, it might still be productive. 

[Olis]

I'd quite like to see a mini-group event. Since the Liber Cluster thread, there's been few collaborations going on while everyone is preoccupied with things like the ETL and the Liber Challenges.

[Arkangilos]

I'm not against the idea, but like I said my Grail thing is more of a personal group campaign between my non-Internet buddies.

 

But my chapter would always gladly help out a brother chapter, so I can't see why my chapter wouldn't partake if you wanted.

[Doctor Perils]

I'm game if you're game, even if the Crimson Host stops before the end of the race, because they find an answer to this quest that they don't really like.

[Conn Eremon]

Arkangilos, you could go along as a thought exercise, or perhaps the grail that represents the grail for all three of you isn't the same grail for each of you, and may not be the same grail that provides the focus for the interaction between them. You could also explore a new DIY to be the participant, clearly based off of the original and existing solely to take advantage of the brainstorming of ideas, fated to be cannibalized for the betterment of the original. These are just ideas, if you are interested.

 

If you guys go with a crusade, it would be interesting to see each of your Chapters be redefined, for the purpose and duration of the Crusade at the very least, from being representative of the whole of the Round Table to representing individual, questing knights.

[Arkangilos]

I'm open for the idea. My answer was short earlier because I had late classes after work (I only just now got out of one of my classes, and it's 2200). But basically, I have more to add once I get home. A couple of ideas actually.

[Arkangilos]

Alright, so here is my main idea (that is completely open to change, it's just the rough draft I have). I think it will fit in almost with the way they wanted their chapters originally.

So first off, around year X, the Crimson Knights take up residence on a Feudal World, that was at one time liberated by a join task force of Saint Something (which they would refer to as the Lady of the Lake, or something like that?) and the Crimson Knights. Having seen her in action, the Crimson Knights honored her and the people honored her.

Centuries later, the Eldar on the world use this to their advantage, and the stuff that Cesar wrote comes into play. They use her to deceive the chapter, but deceives them subtly, so there is often truth in what she "lies" to them about.

Eventually, they get a vision to go on a quest for a Red Grail, as the farseer (or whatever) shows them of a space hulk that broke the orbit of the Moon known as Avlon. This grail was believed to still have pure blood from Sanguinius, as the space hulk was made up of a craft that went missing right after the Horus Heresy, and the last remaining records show that they had intended to put one in stasis for the voyage back to Baal. This is *not* the grail that they are looking for, but it is a quest that she has demanded they would take in order to be proven even more worthy. But why? What good would that do for her? I don't know, maybe there is something else that she wants?

Eager to retrieve such a priceless relic and complete such a great quest, they set out, but were met with many obstacles (just as the farseer expected). For one, they didn't exactly know where Avlon was. They had a general idea, but that was it. Also, the wreckage attracted far more than just their chapter. A chaos warband, orks, and the like were attracted to the potential bounties of the hulk. Avalon, and the whole sector, would become a major warzone.

It was not long until detachments from the Crimson Host and the Sanguinary Crusaders also appeared.

Stuff happens, the grail is found to be far more than what was believed. Maybe it was cursed, maybe it was corrupted, or maybe there is something far darker to it. Either way, our three chapters (and maybe other Blood Angel Successors), held a council, where we decided to create a warden for the grail. We create the (Sir Perflous Chapter, does it have a name yet?). It isn't an "official" chapter, and was never part of a founding. Originally, it was made up of veterans of each of our chapters, but as time went on, they would also bolster their numbers with recruits from the world. (Unless you are fine with your chapter being made up entirely as a death watch type organization?)

But basically, the chapters that belong to Cesar, Lord Thorn, and I go on a hunt for a grail (which fits them all).

We find the grail, which happens to be a dangerous and powerful relic, so we decide to create a sort of Blood Watch, or "Wardens of the Grail" (maybe?) (it doesn't have to be the name, I'm just throwing it out as a place holder), which consists of members from all three of our chapters (and maybe others?). This chapter is what becomes Sir Perfluous's chapter (I mean, he even originally wanted a chapter founded specifically to watch it, and this is a good (in my opinion) way to have exactly that).

Maybe the first commander can be the former Chapter Master of the Crimson Host (Lord Thorn mentioned he wanted his first chapter master to go the route of mine, but seemed disheartened because I did that). This would be a good way for him to do that, and still have the uniqueness he wants from it. Maybe he contributed to the curse, and so thought it only right he would leave the chapter as punishment, and be bound to protecting it. It was a sort of punishment for him, but it is also an honor.

The Wardens of the Grail (or whatever you decide to call them), are completely self governed, have their own code of ethics (though it matches *most* of ours, the Crimson Host being the one that is really different), their own way of electing leaders and conducting their stuff. They can either call on brothers from the founding chapters when facing dire times, or they can recruit from their own population. (Or maybe our own chapters' battle brothers can choose to join them for a time, on top of their recruits?).

As for the grail being stolen again (and thereby being a great dishonor that was mentioned earlier), that can lead to the wardens calling upon the founding chapters, and so all of our chapters embark on a great quest to get it back (which is unique, and won't conflict with anything I have going on as well).

What do you all think? Please, make the changes you want and stuff.

I hope I didn't hijack anything

Or ramble. It's been a long day.

[Doctor Perils]

Hi, I've opened a thread for the group project : http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313265-knights-of-the-grailwardens-of-the-grailquesting-knights/

[MinamotoKansuke]

Chapter name idea: Thousand Boys One Cup

 

Sorry, I know it's a serious thread with lots of great ideas, I just couldn't help myself ;p

[Sir Perfluous]

Right! I've been going over the organisation of the chapter, as it's pretty different to the Codex's guide. Here's a first draft:

The chapter is divided, not into companies, but Crusades (subject to name change). Each crusade is led by a Knight-Errant (subject to name change), who functions sort of like the Captain of regular companies. However, each of these crusades is of equal rank - there isn't a "The first company has better warriors than the third company" thing happening. Some Crusades are more powerful than others, but that's only really by accident. I'm unsure how many Crusades there are - probably around ten, I don't wan a Black Templar situation. Maybe a bit more or less.

Each Knight-Errant has a seat on the not-the-round-table in the fortress monastery on Avalon, where each holds equal authority. This council govern the chapter and function as a multi-headed Chapter Master. It's the closest to a democracy, I think, that the Imperium has! The Chief Librarian, Derrival Emrys (?) and the Chief Priest of Sanguinius. In times of desperate need, one of the Knights-Errant is elected to wield the power of the Council, so that they don't get bogged down in discussion in times where decisive action is needed.

The various Crusades function almost like a miniature set of Successor Chapters, each having a slightly different approach to warfare. One may make ample use of fast vehicles, another of Dreadnoughts, or Terminators. Each Crusade specializes in something slightly different.

Within a Crusade can usually be found an example of most Blood Angels weaponry, but the squads are arranged slightly differently. The Tactical Squads, Devastator Squads and so on (called the Sagittari) provide ranged support, following behind the close-combat orientated Assault squads, Terminator squads and all their ilk, the Gladius (because Gothic doesn't have to be proper Latin, thankfully. This name is also subject to name change). Scouts are called Squires and vehicles are Equestria (STNC). There's also the Death Company (Nexum?) but they get tricky.

Then there's the mysterious lot who are in stasis under the surface of Avalon after drinking from the Grail (?). Those are detailed in my original post. They're still mostly unchanged in my mind, but the Grail stuff is still being debated, so I don't know.

Now: Chapter names! Still stuck, but got a couple of (hopefully at least OK) ideas. The Knights Resplendent? It has "knights", and I like the sound of it, but does it fit the chapter? Then there's the Sanguine Guard. This is a bit rubbish, but I'm just putting it out there.

We find the grail, which happens to be a dangerous and powerful relic, so we decide to create a sort of Blood Watch

Inspired by this line, I have another name idea: The Knight Watch. This is, as the late,great Sir Terry Pratchett said, a "pune, or play on words".

[Doctor Perils]

Do the Knight Watch wear Knight Gowns ?

Sanguine guard resembles the Sanguinary guard too much. Knights resplendent could be ok, but it does sort of sound like an Emperor's Children warband...

I'm not against you not using Codex organisation, but you have to come up with reasons why they don't do it like everyone else. This is critical to your chapter being accepted by other people (IRL or other chapters, inquisition etc.)

And of course, it's always interesting to find these sorts of things

[Arkangilos]

I really wish I could show you what nightrawen said to me during my first iteration. I wonder if there is a way to bring that back up (it was a different thread but was years ago.

 

To put it nicer than NightRawen but the same points:

The Blood Angels are codex compliant. Their successors mostly are, and the training cadre (from those chapters), would be compliant as well. The codex is an effecient and effect tool followed by most chapters.

So why would a chapter break long standing traditions? Especially when the founding chapter and the training cadre it sends are supporters.

 

So why? And how do they get away with it? How can a chapter trust them with a sacred task of it can't trust them to adhere to the dictates of the imperium?

 

Those are important questions.

[Sir Perfluous]

I've really worked backwards here. I decided to organise the chapter like that because I think it fits the fluff - It has a Round Table theme (the reason it was a round table at all was to ensure that no-one could sit at the head of it, ie, that all who sat at it were equal, which is very much present in my Council), and I think it fits with the Grail quest, where the knights split up and "looked for clues" - and now I just need to think of ways to justify it.

My justification at the minute is that I'd imagine that if you're operating a galactic search party, where all the different Crusades were separated across the galaxy, each one would need to be able to operate fully on its own, meaning that each would need a rounded collection of troops. Most chapters only need operate around a certain area, so the Codex is fine, but it might be more convenient in the case of my chapter, to have it this way. They still follow the Codex more or less as far as its ideals and so forth go, just not the organisation. It makes sense in my head, anyway.

Really, the main reason I hoped to be able to get away with it is because I based it on the Black Templars' organisation scheme, which is about as non-codex compliant as it gets. As that's canon, I hope that I can use that to justify my oragnisation. Do you think I can get away with it? Or am I suffering from "look how special my chapter is" syndrome?

[Conn Eremon]

To be perfectly frank, I have two reactions to this, and take it as you will.

 

One, you explain that dropping Codex adherence allows for your Chapter to do more than it otherwise could, but what you list are exactly what the Codex is there for. Dropping it makes them less efficient and effective at what you want. Not more so. This isn't just specific in your case, but general. The Codex works. Those who do not follow it suffer for it, and often only because they have no choice.

 

Two, if the fight is between the theme and the Codex, the theme should lose. While derivative works are common in 40k, and there is certainly space for more, when you reach a point of struggle between what makes sense in the setting and what makes the work more derivative, the theme should be the first thing that bends. Otherwise, to anyone else who reads your work, there ends up being nothing of value. It's just something else that someone pasted 40k stuff all over.

 

Basically, create a Space Marine Chapter. Not Space King Arthur 40,000.

[Olis]

Really, the main reason I hoped to be able to get away with it is because I based it on the Black Templars' organisation scheme, which is about as non-codex compliant as it gets. As that's canon, I hope that I can use that to justify my oragnisation. Do you think I can get away with it? Or am I suffering from "look how special my chapter is" syndrome?

In an out-of-universe context, the reasoning isn't too bad. However, seeing as the Liber holds itself to a certain standard (as if that didn't sound pretentious...) then a deviation from then company structure laid out by the codex will need exploration, if not explanation. To me, it'll boil down to either an evolution or revolution in chapter culture to necessitate that change. Perhaps the easiest method I know would be to smash the chapter, push it towards the edge of extinction and reform it in conditions that require a departure from the codex.

[Sir Perfluous]

Really, the main reason I hoped to be able to get away with it is because I based it on the Black Templars' organisation scheme, which is about as non-codex compliant as it gets. As that's canon, I hope that I can use that to justify my oragnisation. Do you think I can get away with it? Or am I suffering from "look how special my chapter is" syndrome?

In an out-of-universe context, the reasoning isn't too bad. However, seeing as the Liber holds itself to a certain standard (as if that didn't sound pretentious...) then a deviation from then company structure laid out by the codex will need exploration, if not explanation. To me, it'll boil down to either an evolution or revolution in chapter culture to necessitate that change. Perhaps the easiest method I know would be to smash the chapter, push it towards the edge of extinction and reform it in conditions that require a departure from the codex.

I understand that you have standards, and really this is just the rough slab of marble from which the actual, elegant reasoning will be hewn. If the chapter were to start out fairly codex-adherent, bad stuff began to happen because it was unsuitable for their purposes and they realised that they needed to rearrange things... I may implement something like that. Or maybe I'll scrap the whole idea. Who knows. But don't worry, this'll be a work of art eventually!

And Conn, I get your concerns. I'm trying to make this thing work, but apparently converting a thousand year old legend into a 41st millennium super-soldier army is harder than you'd think! But seriously, the reason I started this thread was to see if the ideas were compatible before hitting a Word document, so I'm really just experimenting with what I can bring across from that setting. Your negative response to that idea is fine, it means I'll need to tweak it (or scrap it, but I don't want to unless it really can't be beaten into shape). I understand that the Codex is so widely adhered to for a reason, I just thought that, like the Black Templars, the fact that they're spread so thinly across the Galaxy on their hunt for whatever-the-Grail-is/on Crusades, that this style of organisation might allow each "branch" to operate more fully under its own resources, without having to call in others who might be investigating something else half a galaxy away. But if you really do think that it's a bad idea, I'll seriously reconsider it. Thanks for the blunt reply, it's only a draft after all.

[Olis]

[...]I understand that you have standards, [...]

 

Geez, now I really do think my statement sounded pretentious! :lol:

[Sir Perfluous]

[...]I understand that you have standards, [...]

Geez, now I really do think my statement sounded pretentious!

Not at all (at least, not to me. I'm sure everybody else is judging you ). Creating this stuff really is a work of art, getting it all to blend seamlessly (or not, in my case it seems) with the existing lore and making the chapter unique and interesting. I don't think I fully appreciated that when I first toyed around with the ideas. If you didn't have at least some standards, ideas would come out of the Liber critiquing machine a lot worse than the great stuff that is produced at the minute!

[Conn Eremon]

The Liber has more standards than it does members. My rule of thumb is that the creator's standards for the DIY are more relevant to the DIY than anyone else's. It only gets pretentious when you start thinking the other way around. :p

 

If your standards are that you want Space King Arthur, and I'm interested enough to assist, I'll gladly spitball increasingly derivative ideas until you'd think Geoffrey of Monmouth had penned Warhammer 40k. To be honest, I probably wouldn't be interested enough, but if I was, I would.

 

But you have stated multiple times a willingness to drop things that are "too much" in favor of creating a DIY that can stand on its own two feet and meet the standards of others. So, your standards are that they meet a higher standard than you feel you may be able to hold to on your own, being new and unfamiliar with much of the lore. So I will give you C&C that shows my own standards, which in comparison is a little critical. Others should give you their standards as well, whether critical or not. If it gets overly or unnecessarily critical, the Liber Mods will step up.

 

The rub of it is, only you can decide which advice you heed and which you ignore. And there is nothing right or wrong with either of those two responses. This will always be your DIY, and your choice.

 

Oh, and I judge Olis all the time. At the very least I'm pulling two people's worth of judginess, so don't worry. I got your unjudginess covered. :D

 

 

Edit: Why don't you take a step back, and come up with an outline of what you would like. Are you familiar with the basic Index Astartes format? It's not necessary to hold to one, but it might be useful for right now.

 

What I would recommend is that you fill this outline with as little connecting it to the original theme as possible.

 

This doesn't mean drop it. It just means describe or define it without actually referencing it. As an example, rather than saying you want a First Captain Lancelot, say you want a hero, a champion, of peerless skill, who lately has been plagued with doubt over what he feels is an unbecoming ambition to rise further in rank while a Chapter Master he admits is greater than he is still around.

 

See what I mean? List what you want out of this Chapter, using the Index Astartes layout, and only using words or terms that someone with zero knowledge of King Arthur and his knights could still fully understand. Things like organization, beliefs, combat doctrines and home world.

 

We, your critics, will then be better equipped to help you create it from there.

 

But like I said above, this is only one person's advice. It's up to you if you actually want to do that.