Ultramarines Unmodified Ld

[The Grim Badger]

Hi folks! Just wanted to check something - I may just be being stupid!

 

Ultramarines special ability includes this whole 'unmodified ld 10' business - does this mean that nothing ever modifies this stat for them? And does this therefore make them a very solid counter to Kurze and his buddies?

[Caillum]

It sure does!

[Hesh Kadesh]

No. They may take their Leadership tests wrt to Fear and Regrouping with Ld10. If they mean to say it cannot be further modified, such as with the Stubborn special rule, it should say "cannot be further modified" or "they ignore any negative Leadership modifiers". 

 

As it stands, it's basically saying that they count as Ld10 for Regrouping and Fear tests, so Curze joined by an IC with Trophies of Judgement is still popping a Leadership Test of -4 on their Fear.

[The Grim Badger]

Ah, I see - so when they say unmodified they don't mean 'unmodifiable' - makes sense to me now :) thanks!

[Hesh Kadesh]

It can be read either way. In legalese style, it's whoever can prove most convincing argument, and by providing an example of how it should have been worded if they meant that it was going to be taken on a unmodifiable Ld of 10, then they should have stated that using existing language.

 

As they haven't, it leaves it open to my posit. As it stands, Night Lords are already hamstrung by the fact that, similar to Sons of Horus, their legion rules are incredibly poor. They have a single unit who is roughly capable above working above and beyond what normal Legion equivalents are, and their one benefit is access to Dreadclaws and Drop Pods in a manner which is otherwise limited to Orbital Assault (drop pods are king). Making them go against a Ld10 for Stubborn which cannot be modified is just going to make it worse for them.

 

Using an unmodifiably Ld10, then technically, rerolling is a modifier as well, so things like Vexilla won't work either.

[Caillum]

Apologies - I didn't give any backup for my reasoning, because it was blantantly obvious (to me).

 

If they meant it to be a "modifiable" Ld of 10, they wouldn't have used the term "unmodified". Finding a difference in those descriptions is semantics (and we know FW have a way of writing their rules like this). Stubborn has absolutely no effect on Fear or Regroup tests, so this being a "modifier" is a moot point. Similarly, a vexilla allows a Ld test (including any modifiers it may have) to be re-rolled (with the same modifiers).

 

Yes, Night Lords get hamstrung by their Legion tactics given the amount of Fearless, auto-pass Fear tests, immune to Fear, etc. I reckon Curze's -3 to Ld for Fear tests helps, but only against those who can be affected. "Sire of the Night Lords" also doesn't stack with Trophies of Judgement/Fear for a -4 (though that would be amazing) as people are testing against one or the other.

 

Example: Night Lords Terror Squad (with Curze in the army) up against an Ultramarines Tactical Squad.

- The Tacticals are not immune to Fear, so therefore must pass a Ld test at -1 (from Curze's "Sire of the Night Lords" rule) or be reduced to WS1. Sergeant is Ld 9, but as Ultramarines have the "Certainty and Resolve" special rule they count it as Ld 10 - which also isn't modified by "Sire of the Night Lords". They have a vexilla for a re-roll, so they pass it easily.

- No worries - Terror Squad still beats them up. Let's say the Tacticals lose combat by 3.

- Tacticals must pass a Morale Check or face a sweeping advance from the Terror Squad. The Sergeant died due to Precision Strikes and the unit only has Ld 8, minus 3 for the difference in wounds, for a Ld 5 Morale Check. They fail, but beat the Terror Squad's sweeping advance and fall back.

- In their turn, the Tacticals get to Regroup, which is at their full Ld of 8, regardless of losses, due to "Legiones Astartes". But as Ultramarines they also have "Certainty and Resolve" so it is actually at Ld 10. They pass, consolidate, and continue the fight.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I see the point you're making, but saying they take Fear tests on an unmodified Ld of 10, what happens when it is modified, such as by rules which specifically modify it, like Curze/Night Lords? Then it's an unmodified Ld10 with a modifier. If they further clarified that it could not be further modified, then stating that it's either a Stubborn Ld10, or even just copy-pasting the wording for Stubborn prevent further modification, then yes, I can see the point.

 

I can see that that is what they may have been going for. Sire of the Night Lords makes no mention of what happens when the Fear Test is modified.

 

In game, if this came up with two opposing points of view like this, it would be a roll off decision, because this is where one rule says X happens, and the other says Y happens in direct contradiction to one another.

[The Grim Badger]

Checked this with Forge World in the end, and the answer was:

 

"Whenever a unit with the Legions Astartes (Ultramarines) special rule takes Fear or Regroup tests it is always using a LD value of 10 which is never modified. "

 

So that solves that one :)

[xera32]

The wording of the UM rule is very close to the same wording used in 8th ed fantasy for steadfast (stubborn). "Steadfast units can always take break tests on their unmodified leadership".

But lets take it 1 step further, lets say you can modify this leadership value, isn't the LA:UM rule actually modifying the leadership value of the unit (for these tests), and therefore is a modifier giving a set modification. Under the multiple modifiers rule we apply multipliers first, then additions and subtractions, then any set values. Arguably kurze's -4 ld would be overriden once you set their LD to 10 (if the LD could be modified).

Also note that rerolls are not a modifier, and therefore you can reroll a result that can't be modified, with the only general restriction on rerolls being you cannot reroll a reroll, and you cannot reroll a single die in a set of dice without explicit permission.