Best BA shooting unit

[Indefragable]

What would you say is/are the best unit(s) in the BA Codex for shooting? As with so many things this is subjective but I am reevaluating my play style and realized I tend to lack in the dakka department. I tend to play balls-to-the-wall, in-your-face choppy but recent games have made me realize just how important it is to be able to soften up the enemy from a distance. Against other armies that need the Charge as much as we do it can be a dance trying to position yourself just right.

[Xenith]

MM attack bikes, melta cide assault squads, triple melta command squads, Grav bikers, Death company with bolters, quad template drop pod tacticals

 

What do you want to shoot? I'd say anti tank and anti MC are the most important. Anti horde can be done in combat.

[Brother_Mike]

I always thought grav-centric sternguard had a place in our lists. Our focus on melee units means all different shooting roles can be filled with one versatile unit, that being sternguard, with grav or melta, whichever you prefer.

 

And they aren't bad in CC at that.

[RedemptionNL]

A Bike Squad with 2 grav-guns, a combi-grav sergeant with melta-bombs and a multi-melta attack bike is a very nice shooty unit indeed. The minimum squad comes at only 163 points.

 

My other favourite shooty unit is probably a Sicaran. Glorious tank that is.

[CaptainHelion]

A couple of things about Sternguard to keep in mind are that it's very easy to overspend and have too many toys, not enough boys, but it's also very easy to underspend, leaving you with a unit that can do a lot of things, but not the thing you need them to do RIGHT NOW.

Another thing is don't put all your eggs in one basket. Maybe a small squad of Sternguard, and a grav-biker squad. Gives you flexibility in targets, and with two units, your opponent needs to try harder to kill them off

[Charlo]

Stormravens offer an untold amount of Dakka for a nice amount of points! About 230 for: Twin-linked Multimelta, Twin Linked Assault Cannon, two sets of Hurricane Bolters and four S8 AP2 missiles with concussive!

 

On the turn you arrive you can unload any 5 of these bad boys at full BS into the enemy thsnks to power of the Machine Spirit and due to the flying move melta range should be no problem. It fully eats enemy flyers, infantry and armour for breakfast, plus you can keep a unit and dread inside! Scouts and a Furioso with Magna Grapple are perfect as they can disembark without risk of dangerous terrain. Perfection.

 

Take the Storm Wing formation if you want too, it gives you two Storm Talons as escort (not usually in our codex) that grant the Raven BS5 while one is alive. You can still transport your BA units in it too from the game outset as it is a battle brother non dedicated transport. Plus it doesn't take up a heavy support slot then!

 

Vindicators are good, but red ones are better! 12 inch move and 24 inch range on that pie plate is incredible. Vanilla may get access to the squaded versions with a possible HUGE pie of doom, but they're just more of a target and nit half as mobile.

 

Razorbacks too, in numbers with our fast rules armed with twin plasma guns and Lascannon are great fire support when you need it.

 

There is also something to be said for twin heavy bolter land speeders. Stay out of small arms threat range at 36 and unleash 18 shots a turn. If he targets you with his long range anti tank youve already won.

[Ohrtanc]

I know a Sicaran Battle Tank is not in our Codex but If you're willing to go with Forgeworld you should give it a try.

Low point costs, fast, durabil, nice main gun.

[tychobi]

My favorite shooting unit if forge world relics are allowed is a Javelin Attack Speeder.  Stand off range keeps it in the game and enough of a threat to draw off real firepower, this little guy is awesome.  Punches way above weight.  And a handy little objective grabber as well.

[Just4uCupCake]

I love Exterminatus...Thats very shooty...

But on a serious note... Scouts with Sniper Rifles for infantry killing.

Devastators are cool too...

Tactical horde... 40+ marines

My favorite dakka against terminator heavy armies *cough GK* 18 bikes divided into 3 squads of six each squad has a serg with a combi grav and two marines have grav guns and also a MM attack bike. for 21 bikes in total.

But.... if you want my advice from forgeworld....

1) 3 Deredeos with the auto cannons *sunder* reroll armor pens. str 8 ap 4 Twin linked heavy 4/ May gain skyfire/ interceptor if it doesnt move that turn. + str 6 ap 3 ML on top of it with independent tracking plus 5++ from range and also Twin linked HBs??

2) as previously stated sicarans.... but my advice is always run two or more and always run them with heavy bolter sponsons for 9 str 5 ap 4 dice and then you get 6 str 7 ap 4 rending attacks for just one..... Infantry killer for sure.

3) Fire raptor gunship.

4) Contemptor dreadnought talons with Double Kheres ACs.

What is it that you want to shoot though?

[sebs_evo7]

At about 90 points you can have a 3 man bike squad with two grav guns, every game I play these guys make triple or more their points back by immobilising vehicles/walkers and mowing down power armour

[evildrcheese]

Going back to Sternguard. They're an excellent shooty unit with special ammo to deal with all types of infantry. If running a full squad, I usually take 3 combis (either plas/melta depending on the composition of the rest of my list).

 

I like to put 9 of them in a rhino with Mephiston running divination, as there's some great powers to boost the damage out put (rerolls, ignores cover, full bs overwatch spring to mind) I also like to put a Pfist on the sgt so there's some high S ap2 for if they're charged by something Meph can't deal with.

 

Other shooty, grav bikes and MM attack bikes are full of win. For grav bikes the cool thing is if you end up vs something with bad armour (orks/AM for instance you still have the tl bolters).

 

Stormraven as mentioned is an awesome gunboat, the Baal puts out some serious Dakka, even predators dakka or triplas are really good as they'refast for us, and of course FW offer the sicaran.

 

Lots of cool shooty stuff available.

 

D

[Riot Earp]

My favorite shooting unit if forge world relics are allowed is a Javelin Attack Speeder.  Stand off range keeps it in the game and enough of a threat to draw off real firepower, this little guy is awesome.  Punches way above weight.  And a handy little objective grabber as well.

 

Mine is the Deredeo Dreadnought and the Sicaran. 

Deredeo is more accurate and let armpour penetrating reroll but Sicaran ignore jink. 

Whats not to like. :)

[Marvin_the_Martian]

I think Blood Angels players have some hard decisions to make when it comes to what units to bring in order to provide adequate fire support for the assault units. In my experience, enemy units with 2+ saves hit our jump pack units like a brick wall and cause serious momentum issues. So when I look at the question of what the best shooting unit in the BA codex is, I think about how I use shooting to break down TEQ units (or Emperor forbid multi-wound models with 2+ saves) so that the assault units won't have to worry about being stuck in CC with them for more than a turn. Anything with an armor save worse than 2+ will probably be chewed up in CC by our Death Company or Sanguinary Guard units, so I don't worry too much about having enough shooting to deal with them.

 

With this in mind, I'd like to nominate Devastator squads as the best shooting unit in the BA codex. I admit that I haven't used them too much, but I know that my most recent game against Grey Knights has opened my eyes to their role in a Blood Angels Army. Let me try to explain my train of thought.

 

I think the most basic quality of a fire support unit, even even slightly more important raw damage output, is survivability. Sure, we can load up a unit of 5 Sternguard Veterans with combi-plasmas into a Drop Pod and that would only set us back 195 points for some SERIOUS plasma output delivered right to the enemy's doorstep. But this feels like a one-turn gimmick to me. Five marines, even with Feel No Pain if you take a Command Squad instead, don't last very long if they're any sort of threat (just look at melta-cide squads). Fire support units aren't that useful to me if you're just trading them one-for-one with whatever unit they're kitted out to counter. In essence, this is a roundabout way of saying that fire support units should survive several turns to maximize their overall damage output even if its at the expense of their per-turn damage output. 

 

Stormravens, Predator variants, Vindicators, and Devastators are all decent choices based on this criteria. Since my local meta doesn't include a lot of anti-air or Drop Pod Assault lists, flyers, front armor 13 vehicles, and infantry units with long-range weapons can go far in the games I play.

 

But there are a couple of reasons why I picked Devastators out of this lineup. I mentioned that I think BA assault units have trouble with units of TEQs. Stormravens just don't offer enough AP2 firepower for their point cost to consider them as a valid counter to TEQs and the rending on the Baal Predator assault cannon isn't really a good solution either. As for Vindicators, I definitely realize that they're a fantastic counter to TEQ, but I get really nervous about throwing strength 10 AP 2 large blasts around when my jump units are running around within assault range of the enemy. Plus, the Demolisher Cannon is only 24" range, a pretty serious limitation for a vehicle with side armor 11. 

 

That pretty much leaves us with Predator Annihilators (triple lascannons) and Devastators. Predator Annihilators are, IMO, a fantastic choice for dealing with Monstrous Creatures and TEQ as they can just sit back and blast away while remaining reasonably assured that their 13 front armor will protect them, especially if its combined with a cover save! And on top of that, BA Preds can be upgraded to be Fast vehicles, which I think is really important since you're undoubtedly going to need to shift your Predator a little over the course of the game to maximize the number of lascannons you can train on a target while still taking advantage of cover.

 

But if we're focusing specifically on a fire support unit's ability to deal with TEQ, then a full 10-man Devastator squad armed with 4 Plasma Cannons fits the bill perfectly. If combat squad-ed with two cannons in each unit, the survivability of the unit increases dramatically, especially if Drop Pod Assault lists aren't really a problem in your local meta and focusing 4 Plasma Cannons on a single TEQ unit is going to dish out some serious hurt over the course of two turns. 

 

Of course, feel free to disagree. I still learn a lot with every game I play, so if you've tried this and found it underwhelming, let me know :)

 

TLDR: Devastators armed with Plasma Cannons fill an important niche for Blood Angels army lists, namely in providing survivable anti-TEQ firepower.

[Indefragable]

What is it that you want to shoot though?

Sorry for the long delay in responding...holiday weekend here and the lead-up to it.

 

What do I want to shoot?

 

Everything.

 

 

Ok, more seriously, I want to shoot those things that I can't stab or stab enough. For me, this tends to be monstrous/gargantuan creatures, flyers, TEQ and vehicles.

 

Almost every list I play includes proportionately large quantities of DC, a Dante-SG-SP bomb, Mephy in a Melta/SS Command Squad Drop Pod, or Fragiosos in Drop Pods.

 

Where I tend to struggle is:

 

-Big tough multi-wound things (MC or super vehicles...like Wraithknights)

-Fast shooty kiting units like Eldar bikes

-CC units that can tie up my own stabbers for more than 2 turns

-Flyers such as Heldrakes when I don't bring Stormravens

 

This is somewhat obvious but the importance of shooting for BA is punishing your enemy for not being in CC. Case in point is going up against Orkz and other choppy units I have found many turns turn into a dance where both sides do everything to get the Charge vs being charged. Dakka helps punish the enemy for dancing: it forces him to either retreat out of range or have to get even closer to charge a shooting unit.

 

To me, a "best" shooting unit is something that you can fit into almost list and benefit from it.

 

The unit that leaps to mind for me is Sternguard: they are the definition of versatility. And they are just tough enough (with enough bodies or FNP) to last long enough to let DC or SG save them/get medieval. Sternguards' biggest drawback is survivabilty and range.

 

One would think Devastators would be the obvious choice but to me there are 2 big drawbacks:

 

1) mobility (lack thereof)

2) specialization

 

Devs are great for camping on the top of a Bastion or something with line of sight of most of the board, but that depends on terrain setup and so many other factors. Also, other than 1x more heavy weapon, what can they do that a Fast Predator can't?

 

I also find them to be great at a specific role such as 4x Lascannons, 4x Flakk missiles, 4x Plasma Cannons, etc... but then they are a large points sink for s specific role. 4x Lascannon Devs is great against a mech list but is almost useless against green tide.

 

And if you try to make them more versatile, you dilute that specialization making them half-assed at 2 things...

 

 

 

Post 1/2.

[Marvin_the_Martian]

Where I tend to struggle is:

 

-Big tough multi-wound things (MC or super vehicles...like Wraithknights)

-Fast shooty kiting units like Eldar bikes

-CC units that can tie up my own stabbers for more than 2 turns

-Flyers such as Heldrakes when I don't bring Stormravens

 

 

I don't think there's a single unit that can shore up your army list against all of these threats. I know you feel that Devastators are situational based on the terrain setup, and that's a fair point, but let me suggest something:

 

5 Devastators               150 pts

4x Lascannons

Aegis Defense Line      100 pts

Quad Gun

 

For 250 points (just a little more than a kitted-out Stormraven), you get the ability to:

1. Mitigate the effects of a :cussty terrain setup since you can now deploy your devastators anywhere, including out in the open, and guarantee that they'll have a 4+ cover save
2. Use Lascannons to effectively threaten Monstrous Creatures, pin down Eldar jetbikes (they'll need to hug LOS-blocking terrain and that makes their motions predictable), and pick off 3-4 of whatever those CC units are that tie up your own CC units (I assume you're talking about TEQs)
3. Menace a Heldrake with the Quad Gun and force your opponent to divert firepower away from your assault units to deal with your Devastators

I don't think the distraction value of 4 lascannon Devastators is something to be underestimated. Even if you're just distracting the heldrake for a turn, that means that It'll be turn 4 or 5 before your opponent will be able to bring the heldrake to bear against your assault units, and by then, they're probably already in CC anyways and therefore safe from the baleflamer.

 

As for actually shooting down the heldrake, just remember that your lascannon Devastators can still fire snap shots at the Heldrake as your sergeant mans the quad gun! If even one of those str 9 shots connects, you can bet that the heldrake won't be a happy camper.

 

But you're absolutely right: Predators do offer superior mobility for comparable firepower. They'll never be able to deal with fliers though unless you get lucky and find a mysterious objective that turns out to be a skyfire nexus.

 

edit: Note that I can't take complete credit for the Devastators/Aegis Defense Line idea. I saw someone else on the B&C posting about the virtues of using two squads of Devastators behind an Aegis Defense line and was intrigued.

[Indefragable]

 

Where I tend to struggle is:

 

-Big tough multi-wound things (MC or super vehicles...like Wraithknights)

-Fast shooty kiting units like Eldar bikes

-CC units that can tie up my own stabbers for more than 2 turns

-Flyers such as Heldrakes when I don't bring Stormravens

 

I don't think there's a single unit that can shore up your army list against all of these threats. I know you feel that Devastators are situational based on the terrain setup, and that's a fair point, but let me suggest something:

 

5 Devastators 150 pts

4x Lascannons

Aegis Defense Line 100 pts

Quad Gun

For 250 points (just a little more than a kitted-out Stormraven), you get the ability to:

• Mitigate the effects of a :cussty terrain setup since you can now deploy your devastators anywhere, including out in the open, and guarantee that they'll have a 4+ cover save
• Use Lascannons to effectively threaten Monstrous Creatures, pin down Eldar jetbikes (they'll need to hug LOS-blocking terrain and that makes their motions predictable), and pick off 3-4 of whatever those CC units are that tie up your own CC units (I assume you're talking about TEQs)
• Menace a Heldrake with the Quad Gun and force your opponent to divert firepower away from your assault units to deal with your Devastators

I don't think the distraction value of 4 lascannon Devastators is something to be underestimated. Even if you're just distracting the heldrake for a turn, that means that It'll be turn 4 or 5 before your opponent will be able to bring the heldrake to bear against your assault units, and by then, they're probably already in CC anyways and therefore safe from the baleflamer.

 

As for actually shooting down the heldrake, just remember that your lascannon Devastators can still fire snap shots at the Heldrake as your sergeant mans the quad gun! If even one of those str 9 shots connects, you can bet that the heldrake won't be a happy camper.

 

But you're absolutely right: Predators do offer superior mobility for comparable firepower. They'll never be able to deal with fliers though unless you get lucky and find a mysterious objective that turns out to be a skyfire nexus.

 

edit: Note that I can't take complete credit for the Devastators/Aegis Defense Line idea. I saw someone else on the B&C posting about the virtues of using two squads of Devastators behind an Aegis Defense line and was intrigued.

I have considered 4x ML w/ Flakk Devs but it just seems underwhelming, especially against anything non-flying.

[Charlo]

They're also absurdly expensive with flakk :(

[Just4uCupCake]

some cheap anti horde units that tie your important CC units is to throw in a few whirlwinds. cheap in points and large blast str 5 ap 4 in pretty cool.

Are you looking to ally anything?

Run 3 deredeos for your kill anything that isnt AV14

perks of deredeos

- Cheaper than Devs with flakk and does a better job at it

- if they dont move they gain skyfire interceptor

- 4 twinlinked strength 8 with armor pen rerolls

- twin linked heavy bolter

- 5++ from range 6++ from CC

- Run with plasma karonade for 4 strength 7 ap 2 shots for killing MCs of use the overload fire for Large blast str 7 ap 2 for killing terminators and the like. still decent AA glancing a storm raven on 5s

- Glancing AV 13 on 5s

- the missle launcher system on it hits the side armor of the vehicle so if youre facing a predator you got a large blast strength 6 hit on the side which you dont even need line of sight for

you could run some deimos pattern vindicators which are great

another option which is over looked is land speeder typhoons with the missle launchers. keep them back throwing strength 8 ap 3 missles at MCs is very effective. I play nids alot and carnifexs and trygons/mawlocs are a big issue and they are an extremely cheap and mobile fire platform. Best if ran is packs of 3. Also for Anti horde tyranids/ orks/ even IG or tau land speeders with HBs and ACs.

Super Heavy killers? Wraith knight and the like? I suggest praying lol just kidding

Have you considered running a knight crusader? or multi meltacide squads?

The Best MC GC such a a wraith knight Killer in my book is a Libby dread in a drop pod.

I cant preach enough however what great shooty units you choose or good CC you have if you have a week base your army will collapse in upon itself. I honestly suggest using plenty of tacticals with whatever special and heavy weapons you choose run them in rhinos and your spec/heavy weapons can shoot out the top at anything.

PM me if you have any questions about specific units.

[Indefragable]

They're also absurdly expensive with flakk

Yea exactly. And Flakk missiles are not all they are Krak'ed up to be (I made a funny).

[Indefragable]

some cheap anti horde units that tie your important CC units is to throw in a few whirlwinds. cheap in points and large blast str 5 ap 4 in pretty cool.

Are you looking to ally anything?

Run 3 deredeos for your kill anything that isnt AV14

perks of deredeos

- Cheaper than Devs with flakk and does a better job at it

- if they dont move they gain skyfire interceptor

- 4 twinlinked strength 8 with armor pen rerolls

- twin linked heavy bolter

- 5++ from range 6++ from CC

- Run with plasma karonade for 4 strength 7 ap 2 shots for killing MCs of use the overload fire for Large blast str 7 ap 2 for killing terminators and the like. still decent AA glancing a storm raven on 5s

- Glancing AV 13 on 5s

- the missle launcher system on it hits the side armor of the vehicle so if youre facing a predator you got a large blast strength 6 hit on the side which you dont even need line of sight for

you could run some deimos pattern vindicators which are great

another option which is over looked is land speeder typhoons with the missle launchers. keep them back throwing strength 8 ap 3 missles at MCs is very effective. I play nids alot and carnifexs and trygons/mawlocs are a big issue and they are an extremely cheap and mobile fire platform. Best if ran is packs of 3. Also for Anti horde tyranids/ orks/ even IG or tau land speeders with HBs and ACs.

Super Heavy killers? Wraith knight and the like? I suggest praying lol just kidding

Have you considered running a knight crusader? or multi meltacide squads?

The Best MC GC such a a wraith knight Killer in my book is a Libby dread in a drop pod.

I cant preach enough however what great shooty units you choose or good CC you have if you have a week base your army will collapse in upon itself. I honestly suggest using plenty of tacticals with whatever special and heavy weapons you choose run them in rhinos and your spec/heavy weapons can shoot out the top at anything.

PM me if you have any questions about specific units.

Yea the Deredeo has really caught my attention of late...even more so than the Sicaran. I prefer not to use ForgeWorld if I can help it (about 1/2 the players in my club have a stigma against it, somewhat fairly).

Question: those of you that have Deredeos (or any ForgeWorld, really...) did you get them straight from FW or from say eBay? I ask because I have seen a few on eBay but they would be shipping from places that make me raise an eyebrow. I don't want to sound xenophobic but it just makes me cautious. Any feedback would be appreciated.

[Just4uCupCake]

some cheap anti horde units that tie your important CC units is to throw in a few whirlwinds. cheap in points and large blast str 5 ap 4 in pretty cool.

Are you looking to ally anything?

Run 3 deredeos for your kill anything that isnt AV14

perks of deredeos

- Cheaper than Devs with flakk and does a better job at it

- if they dont move they gain skyfire interceptor

- 4 twinlinked strength 8 with armor pen rerolls

- twin linked heavy bolter

- 5++ from range 6++ from CC

- Run with plasma karonade for 4 strength 7 ap 2 shots for killing MCs of use the overload fire for Large blast str 7 ap 2 for killing terminators and the like. still decent AA glancing a storm raven on 5s

- Glancing AV 13 on 5s

- the missle launcher system on it hits the side armor of the vehicle so if youre facing a predator you got a large blast strength 6 hit on the side which you dont even need line of sight for

you could run some deimos pattern vindicators which are great

another option which is over looked is land speeder typhoons with the missle launchers. keep them back throwing strength 8 ap 3 missles at MCs is very effective. I play nids alot and carnifexs and trygons/mawlocs are a big issue and they are an extremely cheap and mobile fire platform. Best if ran is packs of 3. Also for Anti horde tyranids/ orks/ even IG or tau land speeders with HBs and ACs.

Super Heavy killers? Wraith knight and the like? I suggest praying lol just kidding

Have you considered running a knight crusader? or multi meltacide squads?

The Best MC GC such a a wraith knight Killer in my book is a Libby dread in a drop pod.

I cant preach enough however what great shooty units you choose or good CC you have if you have a week base your army will collapse in upon itself. I honestly suggest using plenty of tacticals with whatever special and heavy weapons you choose run them in rhinos and your spec/heavy weapons can shoot out the top at anything.

PM me if you have any questions about specific units.

Yea the Deredeo has really caught my attention of late...even more so than the Sicaran. I prefer not to use ForgeWorld if I can help it (about 1/2 the players in my club have a stigma against it, somewhat fairly).

Question: those of you that have Deredeos (or any ForgeWorld, really...) did you get them straight from FW or from say eBay? I ask because I have seen a few on eBay but they would be shipping from places that make me raise an eyebrow. I don't want to sound xenophobic but it just makes me cautious. Any feedback would be appreciated.

I get mine straight from FW, I used ebay once and it showed in the picture it was the forgeworld sicaran I wanted but then when I purchased said item it was a yellow plastic cheap recast and nothing fit together. So all in all just buy in from forgeworld if you can 90% of the time FW items on ebay ae recasts (which I dont mind but when they are crappy casts then I really do mind).

[Charlo]

I know someone who got a Deredeo from eBay in haste. Turned out to be a recast but the quality is great from what they can tell and it was half the price.

[Indefragable]

some cheap anti horde units that tie your important CC units is to throw in a few whirlwinds. cheap in points and large blast str 5 ap 4 in pretty cool.

Are you looking to ally anything?

Run 3 deredeos for your kill anything that isnt AV14

perks of deredeos

- Cheaper than Devs with flakk and does a better job at it

- if they dont move they gain skyfire interceptor

- 4 twinlinked strength 8 with armor pen rerolls

- twin linked heavy bolter

- 5++ from range 6++ from CC

- Run with plasma karonade for 4 strength 7 ap 2 shots for killing MCs of use the overload fire for Large blast str 7 ap 2 for killing terminators and the like. still decent AA glancing a storm raven on 5s

- Glancing AV 13 on 5s

- the missle launcher system on it hits the side armor of the vehicle so if youre facing a predator you got a large blast strength 6 hit on the side which you dont even need line of sight for

you could run some deimos pattern vindicators which are great

another option which is over looked is land speeder typhoons with the missle launchers. keep them back throwing strength 8 ap 3 missles at MCs is very effective. I play nids alot and carnifexs and trygons/mawlocs are a big issue and they are an extremely cheap and mobile fire platform. Best if ran is packs of 3. Also for Anti horde tyranids/ orks/ even IG or tau land speeders with HBs and ACs.

Super Heavy killers? Wraith knight and the like? I suggest praying lol just kidding

Have you considered running a knight crusader? or multi meltacide squads?

The Best MC GC such a a wraith knight Killer in my book is a Libby dread in a drop pod.

I cant preach enough however what great shooty units you choose or good CC you have if you have a week base your army will collapse in upon itself. I honestly suggest using plenty of tacticals with whatever special and heavy weapons you choose run them in rhinos and your spec/heavy weapons can shoot out the top at anything.

PM me if you have any questions about specific units.

For allies I have mainly considered IG...CCS, PCS, 2x Infantry Squads, perhaps a HWT w/ Lascannons and Leman Russ or 2. Primaris Psykers and Ministorum Priests for some cheap extra WC and the Priest can make Mephiston's Command Squad just that much harder to take down (not bad for 25pts). CCS w/ Astropath can potentially make things Invisible. A barebones Leman Russ w/ Battle Cannon can be a great source of tough, long-range, all-purpose S8 AP3 shooting.

Land Speeders are something I have considered but keep warming up to. I have only run them with Multi-Melta/Heavy Flamer but long range missiles seems even better. I will have to look into that.

Knights don't do it for me, but that's just me.

Same thing with bikes. I know crunch-wise they are pretty much the best MEQ unit in the game but I just can't get into them. White Scars or Ravenwing only, but even then they're not my thing. Inverse of the rule of cool IMHO.

Problem with Librarian Dreadnought in a DP is it has to survive a Turn of D-weaponry to the face. I have been focusing on Sternguard in Drop Pods with Grav to take them down. Grav seems more useful overall vs Plasma, since it can still do some work against vehicles.

[Charlo]

Grav is actually worse against AV12 and below because it only glances on a 6, where as Plasma pens. Grav does immobilise though and in larger salvos may prove better stripping off multiple hull points.

 

Same for 3+ and anything toughness 5 or less, Plasma is better - just. Same shots on the move but better range on plasma too.

 

But for multi wound or anything really big grav is superior.

[Indefragable]

Grav is actually worse against AV12 and below because it only glances on a 6, where as Plasma pens. Grav does immobilise though and in larger salvos may prove better stripping off multiple hull points.

 

Same for 3+ and anything toughness 5 or less, Plasma is better - just. Same shots on the move but better range on plasma too.

 

But for multi wound or anything really big grav is superior.

Yea that's the debate. Wraithknights really kick my ass, especially since they just Stomp in melee and take out our heavy hitters in 1 shot/Stomp. There's a pretty nasty list in my meta that includes 2 of them. Right now my counter is Sternguard in pods with Grav. But that's for a specific threat...

 

...in terms of TAC I am indecisive about Grav vs Plasma.