Encarmine Sword master crafted rule

[t-dog1996]

I was just wondering how having master crafted for every model in the unit works in practice. Do you roll the attacks of each Sanguinary guard separately, re rolling a single fail each time, or do you roll them all together and get a number of rerolls equal to the number of guards in the squad?

[Charlo]

I think the correct way is sadly separately

[BadDice0809]

Charlo is right. Its annoying as all hell... the best thing I came up with is grab a bunch of different colors/sizes of dice and tell your opponent 'I reroll one of each kind'

[Canadian_F_H]

Wow that sounds like a pain

[Charlo]

SG in general need a little bit of a bigger update in the rules. The Glaives in themselves are very lacklustre and clunky weapons (two handed with zero benefits), ws4 and no inv save make them a little under par. Priest and Dante fix this to an extent though.

[Lucien Eilam]

Yep, you have to roll them separately. Yes, it's a huge PITA.

[BadDice0809]

It is.... some guys are cool and just let you reroll one die per guy but that math is way in your favor not theirs... I do it the above way to just play everything above board frankly.

[Fahlnor]

Actually, the maths isn't significantly in your favour when we're dealing with rerolling one dice per model. I mean, in the absolute best-case scenario, maybe - we'd be talking about a situation where the Sanguinary Guard either received a charge or were in the second or subsequent rounds of combat (so they have two attacks each) and were fighting a unit with a lower WS (so they're hitting on 3s).

 

In that situation, your average Sanguinary Guard scores 4/3 hits and misses 2/3 hits. This is literally the only situation where you wouldn't expect the Sanguinary Guard to miss at least one full attack per model. And even in this situation, you wouldn't statistically have one dice per model to reroll.

 

Where there are more attacks, or where the models are less likely to hit (three attacks hitting on 4s, for example), each model scores 3/2 hits and 3/2 misses, so allowing one reroll per model is statistically sound.

 

Don't get me wrong, I understand that this doesn't allow for that time that one model hits with all three of his attacks. Yes, it can happen. Will it be game-changing to just roll all the dice at once and reroll one per model? No. Should you double-check with your opponent first? Yes.

 

I think I've had more wine than I'd realised....

[evildrcheese]

I'd second the statement about different colour dice representing each model in the unit, and rerolling one of each colour. Yeah it's still a bit of a pain but it's a damn sight quicker than doing them individually.

 

I'm a bit fan of mixed dice at any rate, allows me to resolve different variables simultaneously, twin linked and none twin linked on a trilas pred, for example.

 

D

[Brother_Mike]

Yeah like it has been said several times, either roll them separately or use different colored dice. But the math doesn't work out right when you roll them all together and just reroll the number of missed hits equals the amount of master crafted weapons in the unit.

 

Personally I don't mind rolling them separately. It seems to make the game more suspenseful and makes my opponents squirm when I have to roll each one of those legendary warriors attacks separately :D

[Blindhamster]

They need to make the angelus boltgun and glaive encarmine be specialist weapons.

 

Sanguinary guard should be ws5.

 

Death company should be ws4

[Charlo]

DC are WS4 :P

[BadDice0809]

Sanguinary Guard not being WS 5 is, I think, the biggest complaint BA players have with them. Its either that or make the Fear USR more potent.

[Charlo]

Would gladly pay 10 points more a model for WS5 and an extra wound or an inv. Just look at grey Knights!

[Spagunk]

Sanguinary Guard not being WS 5 is, I think, the biggest complaint BA players have with them. Its either that or make the Fear USR more potent.

What more do you want? They already have 2 attacks and 10 leadership! Not like every other model grants fearless or something.

[Blindhamster]

Fear usr is useless against most people's 'meta'

 

Either - you already hit on 3s because the enemy has a low WS.

Or they are immune to the fear usr and often you are hitting on 5s or at best 4s.

 

If both weapons were specialist weapons it'd make sense as they are weapons used more or less uniquely by the sanguinary guard.

 

Weapon skill 5 fits their background where they are heroes even amongst space marines.

 

2 wounds would make sense if they were considered our equivalent to centurions. Again as heroes amongst heroes a second wound also fits.

 

HOWEVER

 

For the above, they'd need to cost more.

[Spagunk]

I was being sarcastic. Poking fun at the weird logic GW tends to have about unique units which aren't really unique.

[evildrcheese]

I'm taking us somewhat off topic with this, but to significantly change SG, GW would need to look at terminators.

 

In my opinion to make them feel like how they're portrayed you'd either need to bump them to T6 or T5 with +1W, this at least also makes upgrading a character an interesting choice about how you want them to perform, rather than the current situation where a bike is a no-brainer. That would make them extremely durable to smalls arms fire, but still vulnerable to other high S weapons low ap weapons. I think this is reasonable at the current points cost, I would rather they stayed the same price and felt elite rather than remain mediocre and get cheaper.

 

Now we've fixed terminators we need a niche for SG to fill. They need something to reflect their martial prowess, personally I think some options are as follows

 

Special rule allowing hitting on 2s in the first round of combat

 

Death masks granting Counter Attack

 

Changes to weapons, two handed with no benefit sucks, something like +1s on swords and +2s on axes like frost weapons would be nice

 

D

[TheSauce]

The best part about rolling SG with Dante and a Priest is that you rarely have to roll they're attacks.

 

"Dante hits at I7 with 6 attacks... and everyone is dead."

[Blindhamster]

Dante plus a librarian with quickening plus a sanguinary priest with the AP2 sword in baal strike force. With sanguinary guard with banner.

 

Potentially 10 weapon skill 7 init 10 strength 6 AP2 attacks from dante

Then 6 weapon skill 6 init 6 AP2 strength 5 attacks from the priest.

Then 6 weapon skill 6 init 6 strength 5 ap3 attacks from priest.

Plus all the sanguinary guard attacks if needed (40 weapon skill 5 strength 5 or 6 (depending on sword or axe) init 6 or 1 to be exact)

Add the relic jump pack to ensure interceptor isn't an issue...

 

Expensive but will destroy most things... With access to as many infernus pistols as you like and limited scatter it'll get the job done. Hope for sanguine shield to give em an invulnerable save on top of it.

 

Pricey though.

 

 

Either way, that's the strength of our codex, cumulative buffs.

[evildrcheese]

Either way, that's the strength of our codex, cumulative buffs.

Yeah, my only problem with the cumulative buff strategy is the 'all eggs in one basket ' issue with diminishing returns and oft overkilling.

 

D

[Blindhamster]

Yeah definitely, but doing things like using corbulo behind the main assault (within 6 inches) to buff at least 2 units as part of a baal strike force can be incredible.

 

The dante example above is indeed massive overkill, and certainly not what I'd suggest in anything but a huge game, but effective use of priests, librarians and the formations can still equate to good force multipliers, it's just all very combat focused and not especially versatile.

[Charlo]

DeeoDeep strike in the Sanguinor for another attack on everyone.

[Lucien Eilam]

Fear usr is useless against most people's 'meta'

 

Either - you already hit on 3s because the enemy has a low WS.

Or they are immune to the fear usr and often you are hitting on 5s or at best 4s.

 

Fear is more useful for reducing the damage coming in that what you're putting out.

 

And it's a 5-10 point upgrade. How much were you expecting from it?