Product Placement in Novels

[SvenONE]

Let me preface by saying that I started getting into this hobby by reading basically the first 8 or so books of the HH before buying my first ever set of models, so to me the whole world was new.  But as the HH novels have, to me, become pointless and almost unreadable, I've resigned to just enjoying BL novels at face value.

 

Between travelling and reading on the beach, these are suitable summer reads for me.  This summer I read Andy Chambers' Dark Eldar series, as well as Gav Thorpe's Legacy of Caliban series.  The stories are entertaining enough to get something out of them, but the name-dropping wargear/models in these books are eye rolling.

 

It seems like in BOTH books every single piece of wargear found in the codex was explained almost as a shameless product placement.  Andy Chambers' DE series seemed the worst, I don't think there was a single unit entry save for unique characters that wasn't mentioned, and of course with their wargear.  Thorpe's writing I've never particularly liked, so I feel I might be a little biased in the assessment, but the placement was equally as bad.  For instance mentioning the complete weapon loadouts of DA fliers as they streak over head.  This of course is rather ironic since at the writing of the book the fliers were considered some of the worst entries.

 

The HH novels preceded the FW line/books IIRC, so the fluff behind these things was being generated by the novels and not the other way around.  

 

I don't know, maybe it's not as bad as I think but I honestly roll my eyes and shake my head when I read some of these lines, something I rarely do in a book...

[hopkins]

That's because they come under the GW Publications banner now

First really noticed it in Vengeful Spirit

[Landrick]

I think product placement is more like the scene in World War Z where Brad Pitt gives the pepsi can a close up... Talking about wargear/military units in a book based on a model company's models just seems... appropriate

[A D-B]

The HH novels preceded the FW line/books IIRC, so the fluff behind these things was being generated by the novels and not the other way around.  

 

It's not quite as cut and dried as that. Sure, there are way more direct tie-ins to miniature releases in general, but you'll have a hard case arguing that the lore in any Horus Heresy material is better than the Forge World books. Those things have the word count, illustrations, and luxury of room to go into insane detail that nowhere else does, plus anything new will be backed up by models. That makes a huge difference.

 

But either way, it's not as simple as all that. Subtle or unsubtle, you'll probably find that authors mention new stuff because it's rad and they like it. I don't mention Destroyers in Betrayer because I want to sell resin Destroyer Squads. I mention them because they're freaking awesome and they would indeed be around, with characters being part of them. 

 

Cynicism and scepticism have their place, don't get me wrong, but the answer is almost always "I want to use this and it would realistically be in this scene." The only time I was ever, ever asked to include anything tied into a miniature release was in The Emperor's Gift, and my editor said "Okay, no problem" when the answer was "It won't work in that scene." And even that was an informal suggestion, not an HQ mandate.

 

Whether new things are handled with any subtlety is a different matter, and even when they are, reaction is biased by - as seen here already - the fact it sticks out no matter what, because it's new and getting mentioned for the first time.

[Marshal Rohr]

I opened this thread expecting to hear about Ragnar drinking Mountain Dew in the new novel.

[Carrack]

I think product placement is more like the scene in World War Z where Brad Pitt gives the pepsi can a close up... Talking about wargear/military units in a book based on a model company's models just seems... appropriate

I agree, furthermore if units are described as carrying wargear that isn't a codex approved option, it makes you think that the author isn't familiar with the setting. Assault marines carrying a couple of reaper autocannons for example. I could buy into some completely new unit or wargear, if it was written well, and fit the overall theme of the faction, but if they are sticking with established units, they should write them in accordance with the rules. Or am I missing your point?

[Olis]

The use of new units or characters that GW/FW have introduced is something I noticed waaay back in Honour Guard and the proliferation of Leman Russ variants FW was having fun with. I'm of a mind to think the same way as A D-B, even from a less informed angle. Many of the things being air dropped into publications tend to be included because they're cool rather than the 'buythisbuythisbuythis' mind set. Think of the Laser Destroyers and the Leman Russ Conquerors that popped up at the time. As a tank enthusiast, these new units were hugely interesting and the follow up Imperial Armour book (number one) was a glorious thing to behold. To have them included in a novel was inevitable, provided an author thought they were interesting too. 

[Jareddm]

The thing is, there are some stories that are legitimately used entirely as advertising for a new model. Cold Blood, Stormlord, Engine of Mork, Iron Harvest. Despite this, I actually found most of them to be quite good and gave a number of interesting details beyond just making the product look awesome.

[DarKnight]

Ehh, the points you guys made about it not being product placement per se, more just detailing wargear and vehicles is a decent point, but its just so noticeable especially in Gav Thorpe's DA book. It's probably because the names of the DA flyers are stupid as :cuss. 

[Loesh]

All I could think of when reading this title was Khayon chugging down some cold beverage in the next Black Legion novel mid-battle scene.

 

"Reach for the Son, Reach for Mountain Dew."

[Karthak]

 

But either way, it's not as simple as all that. Subtle or unsubtle, you'll probably find that authors mention new stuff because it's rad and they like it. I don't mention Destroyers in Betrayer because I want to sell resin Destroyer Squads. I mention them because they're freaking awesome and they would indeed be around, with characters being part of them. 

 

 

 

 

I didn't care about Destroyers at first, but they won me over when the Forge World book about Calth mentioned that while most Ultramarines were stunned and thrown into disarray by the appearance of Possessed Word Bearers, the Destroyers just said "meh, seen worse" and went to work. :)

[A D-B]

All I could think of when reading this title was Khayon chugging down some cold beverage in the next Black Legion novel mid-battle scene.

"Reach for the Son, Reach for Mountain Dew."

Canon.

But either way, it's not as simple as all that. Subtle or unsubtle, you'll probably find that authors mention new stuff because it's rad and they like it. I don't mention Destroyers in Betrayer because I want to sell resin Destroyer Squads. I mention them because they're freaking awesome and they would indeed be around, with characters being part of them.

I didn't care about Destroyers at first, but they won me over when the Forge World book about Calth mentioned that while most Ultramarines were stunned and thrown into disarray by the appearance of Possessed Word Bearers, the Destroyers just said "meh, seen worse" and went to work.

Weirdly, I like them for what they insinuate rather than what they actually are. The "forbidden weapons too dangerous even for Space Marines" angle can be a bit hollow and "badass" for my tastes, but what I love about their existence is that if they're sanctioned for use in the Legions, what other awesome and interesting things has the Emperor forbidden? And what are the Mechanicum using in their own campaigns? Questions like that, which offer a glimpse into the Dark Age of Technology. Just a glimpse. That's enough for me. Plus, it's interesting to see - with the Destroyers directly - what ancient nasty tech was still in use back then. There'll be stuff rediscovered or just as nasty in 40K that wasn't around in 30K, but we don't tend to see it much. So it's a nice touch to get a look here, even if it's in the Heresy.

I like Destroyers a lot, but it's what they mean for the setting and the Imperium itself that I love. That old writing trope of it not being what you say but what you don't say; that's what adds depth, sometimes.

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm predicting a Mountain Dew tie in release. Daemon Blood Cherry.

[Loesh]

It also doesn't bother me so much due to the sheer scope of the setting. One of the massive advantages of Warhammer 40ks scale is that what we've seen so far, even after thirty years, is such a tiny and almost insignificant slice of the universe. It's entirely possible that for entire light years Imperial Commanders wouldn't be equipped with weird or new tech that another regiment would consider basic, so when something suddenly shows up 30 years later it's easy to dismiss it as being rare(Because almost everything in 40k is.) or even completely unknown to different sections of the Imperium/Chaos forces/Eldar/whoever.

[Petitioner's City]

The use of new units or characters that GW/FW have introduced is something I noticed waaay back in Honour Guard and the proliferation of Leman Russ variants FW was having fun with. I'm of a mind to think the same way as A D-B, even from a less informed angle. Many of the things being air dropped into publications tend to be included because they're cool rather than the 'buythisbuythisbuythis' mind set. Think of the Laser Destroyers and the Leman Russ Conquerors that popped up at the time. As a tank enthusiast, these new units were hugely interesting and the follow up Imperial Armour book (number one) was a glorious thing to behold. To have them included in a novel was inevitable, provided an author thought they were interesting too. 

 

that was my reaction too, and I loved it (even if i was initially disappointed that this was the follow-up to Necropolis! Now i love its Gaunt deconstructions ;) ) - The then-FW executioners, the conquerors, the then-FW only for 40k scale baneblade, the laser destroyers, the Hydras, the trucks, the Salamanders. All so well used, often with a very rule of cool/cinematic approach. Abnett was always incorporating products - indeed Double Eagle and the Guns of Tanith and even the (then-new) mention of Obliterators in First and Only atop the towers at the end. Later it was Vendettas and BFG ships and other stufff. All good.

 

 

 

I think product placement is more like the scene in World War Z where Brad Pitt gives the pepsi can a close up... Talking about wargear/military units in a book based on a model company's models just seems... appropriate

I agree, furthermore if units are described as carrying wargear that isn't a codex approved option, it makes you think that the author isn't familiar with the setting. Assault marines carrying a couple of reaper autocannons for example. I could buy into some completely new unit or wargear, if it was written well, and fit the overall theme of the faction, but if they are sticking with established units, they should write them in accordance with the rules. Or am I missing your point?

 

 

This however is silly - writing things in limitation to the rules. The rules are sources for imaging, not prescription. Otherwise we would never have had the proliferation of heavy stubbers in Abnett, or private speeders, or the Night Lords in ADB's books, the excesses of visual ideas in as recent a release as Ahriman: Unchanged. 

[Marshal Rohr]

The problem with the 'only in the codex' viewpoint is that the Codexes are inherently limiting and war games are abstractions of combat. As it stands, marines only have three special weapons. Flamethrowers to take on low armor, highly concentrated enemies, fusion weaponry to melta heavier armor, and plasma weaponry as an in between. There are no weapons capable of providing a base of fire to suppress an enemy or more specialized equipment necessary to coordinate air support like laser designators. The marines lack a dedicated comms system, which forge world rectified in the Nuncio-Vox. If an author were to add in a SAW bolter varient or a 40K marine with a nuncio-vox, nothing would be lost because the game is just an abstraction.

[Carrack]

Edited

[daveNYC]

I've no issues with mentioning specific units or even specific weapons.  If some dude is going to town with a Thunder Hammer, that's a different thing that slicing and dicing with Lighting Claws.  What gets strange is if the author decides that he has to refer to everything by the Proper Name .  So if a DA flyer goes on a strafing run, you probably shouldn't write Avenger Bolt Cannon (or whatever it is) every freaking time it fires.  Heck, probably shouldn't even mention it once unless it really works in the story, say the pilot is talking to a newbie about his plane and he starts bragging about his tactical smart missiles, phase-plasma pulse rifles, RPGs, sonic electronic ball breakers, nukes, knives, and sharp sticks.

 

The worst product placement I've read so far was the Warp Talon in Ahriman: Exile.  Just horrible.  It's name dropped as an end of chapter (ish) cliff hanger. "Ahriman had heard of beings such as these, they were called: Warp Talons." (or something like that)  Now turn the page to see the QR code to add it to your shopping cart and to find out if Ahriman survives the attack.

[Firepower]

Compared to the time Dr. Pepper saved a spaceship (after a gratuitous close up of the package floating through the room, glistening majestically with condensation) the occasional mention of specific toys in a novel really doesn't seem gratuitous to me.  :lol:

 

I don't really have much to contribute on top of what's already been said, to be honest.  I just felt like mentioning my favorite moment of over the top product placement :teehee:

 

Mission to Mars, for those who are wondering.  The same movie where a strand of floating DNA was comprised of very specifically noted M&Ms, too.

[Loesh]

Nothing compares to Foodfight.

[Phoebus]

Weirdly, I like them for what they insinuate rather than what they actually are. The "forbidden weapons too dangerous even for Space Marines" angle can be a bit hollow and "badass" for my tastes, but what I love about their existence is that if they're sanctioned for use in the Legions, what other awesome and interesting things has the Emperor forbidden? And what are the Mechanicum using in their own campaigns? Questions like that, which offer a glimpse into the Dark Age of Technology. Just a glimpse. That's enough for me. Plus, it's interesting to see - with the Destroyers directly - what ancient nasty tech was still in use back then. There'll be stuff rediscovered or just as nasty in 40K that wasn't around in 30K, but we don't tend to see it much. So it's a nice touch to get a look here, even if it's in the Heresy.

I take your general point... but disagree with the specific example.

 

The strongest reaction the Destroyers' weaponry has evoked from me has been, "Yeah, it would be kind of silly to turn a world you're trying to claim for the Imperium into a radioactive wasteland." I'm sure there are scenarios where applications of traditional Legiones Astartes shock assault alone won't cut it. Were there really no better weapons to conjure up for them, though?  Radiation weapons, bio-weapons, etc... These are things that are certainly awful, but they don't exactly come off as "Horrors of the Dark Age of Technology Best Left Untouched."

[Loesh]

 

I take your general point... but disagree with the specific example.

 

The strongest reaction the Destroyers' weaponry has evoked from me has been, "Yeah, it would be kind of silly to turn a world you're trying to claim for the Imperium into a radioactive wasteland." I'm sure there are scenarios where applications of traditional Legiones Astartes shock assault alone won't cut it. Were there really no better weapons to conjure up for them, though?  Radiation weapons, bio-weapons, etc... These are things that are certainly awful, but they don't exactly come off as "Horrors of the Dark Age of Technology Best Left Untouched."

 

 

I don't know, yes even a bolter shot might seem more violent but a phosphex grenade burns and never stops burning. Rad weapons mutate and twist even the soldiers who wield them as they become ever more exposed to it, damaging their bodies as well as their enemies.

 

Chaos had far more horrible things it could produce, but during the Great Crusade before anyone knew of existence such weapons must of seemed terrible indeed.

[A D-B]

 

Weirdly, I like them for what they insinuate rather than what they actually are. The "forbidden weapons too dangerous even for Space Marines" angle can be a bit hollow and "badass" for my tastes, but what I love about their existence is that if they're sanctioned for use in the Legions, what other awesome and interesting things has the Emperor forbidden? And what are the Mechanicum using in their own campaigns? Questions like that, which offer a glimpse into the Dark Age of Technology. Just a glimpse. That's enough for me. Plus, it's interesting to see - with the Destroyers directly - what ancient nasty tech was still in use back then. There'll be stuff rediscovered or just as nasty in 40K that wasn't around in 30K, but we don't tend to see it much. So it's a nice touch to get a look here, even if it's in the Heresy.

I take your general point... but disagree with the specific example.

 

The strongest reaction the Destroyers' weaponry has evoked from me has been, "Yeah, it would be kind of silly to turn a world you're trying to claim for the Imperium into a radioactive wasteland." I'm sure there are scenarios where applications of traditional Legiones Astartes shock assault alone won't cut it. Were there really no better weapons to conjure up for them, though?  Radiation weapons, bio-weapons, etc... These are things that are certainly awful, but they don't exactly come off as "Horrors of the Dark Age of Technology Best Left Untouched."

 

 

That's my point, too! They're plainly the tip of the iceberg, with the question being "What other awesome and interesting things has the Emperor forbidden?" There are plenty of other things, but it's cool to see even a glimpse. I agree with you, as well, that it's not necessarily the best glimpse, but still a decent one.

 

Though Destroyers have an excellent use, not on human worlds that need to be brought to compliance, but on alien races that deserve serious, merciless extermination - and perhaps have armour saves that make bolters weep.

[HeritorA]

A D-B has done it again. Masterful answer. I only regret that you haven't advertised 'Gloriana' class flagships enough. I can't find 'Fidelitas Lex' image anywhere :(