Just how balanced is this game really?

[LordBlades]

Hello,

 

One of my friends has been trying for a while to get me into playing Horus Heresy, and with the upcomimg plasic Horus Heresy set, I might finally do it.

 

I'd like however to know just how balanced the game really is?

 

Are there Legions that are underpowered?

 

Are there Legions that are too strong?

 

Ultimately, are there any Legions you would advise a newbie to stay away from?

[Excessus]

Good day and welcome to the forums!

 

Of course there are stronger and weaker legions, but imho the disparity between them is not even close to the differences between codexes in 40k! The difference in power between, say Eldar and Orks, is way greater than World Eaters and Iron Hands. Play the legion you like! :)

 

...and then we have the Mechanicum...

[WolfOfHorus]

Ah yes, the great myth that 30k is balanced spans across several forums. Is it really?

 

Hell no! The Legion list itself has large amounts of dead weight in its Heavy Support and Troops section and it will continue to get larger.

 

The Legions are not balanced in any sense of the word. Compare SoH to RG, plus 1A on the possibility (and a measly rerolling 1s for reserve) that you'll outnumber them to Army wide Infiltrate and Drop Pod Assault without any major downsides.

 

Bottomline; people idolize Forgeworld on these boards and forget that they fall into the same pitfalls as their parent company. They have just as much balancing issues and power creep but because Forgeworld does its Aokay.

[Fire Golem]

Nope, it's nowhere near as unbalanced as 40k proper is. It's not about 'idolising' FW, people accept that there's weaker units and legions, but the disparity isn't anywhere near GWs 40k stuff.

[Balthamal]

Are they 50-50 balanced such as a game of chess would be? No. But then it wouldn't be fun if they all didn't have positives and limitations. There is indeed a gap between the top Legions and the bottom but it's nothing compared to the disparity found in 40k. All 18 Legions draw from the same base army list. So 90% of the cool stuff one Legion takes, the others can take (or more in the case of the XXth). In short, it's possible to have a Legion that isn't the best, still have fun and still win games. If you want something perfectly leveled off for say a more competitive slant then you're in the wrong place.

 

And to refute the previous point, the majority of us who play HH armies are not blindly loyal to FW and slag off GW for the things that both do. We know full well it isn't a totally level playing field. And you know what? We're good with it because drawbacks as well as perks make the Legions interesting. The main draw is the fluff and the fantastic models. Plenty of people run sub optimal units because they fit in with the theme they're looking to go with. I can only think of a couple of examples of people who are serious with running competitive HH lists, at least from on here. And bear in mind that a new edition of 40k dropped just after Vol III, that shook things up, and at least FW are looking to address some of the issues by introducing new RoW with Vol VI to at least provide alternatives. They may work, they may not, that's just the way it goes.

 

But if anyone tries to suggest that FW are in the business of letting :cuss like 6th ed tau/eldar/GK or 7th ed eldar/knights out into the world, you're quite mistaken

[LordBlades]

What would the top 2-3 legions and nottom 2-3 legions be?

[v6v77]

What would the top 2-3 legions and nottom 2-3 legions be?

Top - Alpha legion, Raven guard and Iron hands IMHO

 

Couldnt say about the bottom sorry

[WolfOfHorus]

The smaller the game is, the more apparent are the flaws (yes HH is small) and while I have issues with 40k you can't point directly at a problem, it's chaotic yet engaging as the meta changes frequently.

 

30k very much has power creep with each book (looking at you Xiphon and Deredeo) and my point is people put Forgeworld on pedestal when they are just as interested in moving stock as their parent company and good rules help a lot.

[Excessus]

Yeah, infiltrate...

 

I don't really know why it's lauded as the most awesome thing since the wheel. I face a lot of Mechanicus here, so I use Scout more than I use Infiltrate for my AL, but even without that, only some units will have an advantage of deploying 6" closer to your enemy. Sure, the counter-deploying is quite nice, but a decent opponent already have countermeasures in play for that in their own deployment.

 

I'm not down-playing my AL though, I know they are quite powerful, but infiltrate is situational...

[Jolemai]

What would the top 2-3 legions and nottom 2-3 legions be?

 

That answers for this will be purely based on the players perspective and bias. However, one could feasibly argue that the bottom Legions are those without rules yet? As mentioned above, at the end of the day it's the same flavour ice cream, but with a different sauce on top.

 

The smaller the game is, the more apparent are the flaws (yes HH is small) and while I have issues with 40k you can't point directly at a problem, it's chaotic yet engaging as the meta changes frequently.

 

30k very much has power creep with each book (looking at you Xiphon and Deredeo) and my point is people put Forgeworld on pedestal.

 

Indeed, but there's nothing stopping the World Eaters (for example) taking a Xiphon/Deredeo. It's nothing like the disparity that exists between the Codex: Adeptus Astartes Blood Angels and Codex: Adeptus Astartes Space Marines/Dark Angels (which was released just five months later).

[Excessus]

30k very much has power creep with each book (looking at you Xiphon and Deredeo) and my point is people put Forgeworld on pedestal when they are just as interested in moving stock as their parent company and good rules help a lot.

Oh, you mean the Xiphon and Deredeo...that all legions can take?

[WolfOfHorus]

Sure but it invalidates several Heavy Support slots.

 

This happens time and time again, unlike in 40k where it's updated frequently the same :cussty units stay :cussty while the new hotness rolls out. Happens in 40k sometimes, but it's more apparent in 30k because it's a smaller game.

[Excessus]

Sure but it invalidates several Heavy Support slots.

There will always be internal unbalance, we never said there wasn't. Why would I ever take Alpha Legion headhunters instead of sniper veterans as an example?

 

...but everybody has access to those new things. If you want it you can have it in your list.

[WolfOfHorus]

When the majority of 30k battles are from the EXACT same list, then internal balance should probably be more a concern then its parent game with dozens of lists available. Don't you think?

[LordBlades]

How good are Death Guard and Word Bearers?

 

Atm for me it would be a toss up between those two and Alpha Legion, but all the shenanigans Alpha Legion can pull don't seem very noob friendly.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yeah those nid players with dozens of lists available...

 

If you look at pure armies, there's usually at most 3 builds that are competitive; you only see "dozens" when people stop taking armies and start bringing 3 source lists.

 

 

[WolfOfHorus]

By lists, I meant Force orgs, detachments and Formations which dramatically changes how they are played.

[Brother Dallo]

First off, welcome to the BnC. It's a great community and I hope you enjoy your time here.

 

Afaik, death guard are considered low-mid tier and word bearers are mid- high tier when you factor in Daemon ally shenanagins. Of course, a big part of heresy is themed armies and narrative games, so I'd suggest picking the one you most like the fluff for, and most enjoy painting.

 

If you haven't read it yet, the 4chan link below is surprisingly useful.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Space_Marine_Legion_List_(30k)

 

Hope this helps.

 

Dallo

[Brofist]

From my experience 30k is a better balanced product than the flagship game. I think it's fair to say its a perspective held by a good number of 30k players.

 

We certainly have many of the same problems coming from the core system, but the design team has at least made an effort to keep the this game pretty grounded: LOWs can only be a certain percentage of your army, no unbound, no formations, leadership matters, rare D weapons, only troops score, no rides in Allied transports, etc. These aren't big changes, but the net effect is a different, perhaps less disorganized feeling, experience.

 

Pick a legion that interests you, check out the rules, and play a few games with proxies. You should really try it out for yourself to see if you like the way it plays. Any legion can do anything, but some do things better than others. Once you have an idea of how you like to play, you can narrow it down :)

[Lucien Eilam]

It's "balanced" by virtue of everyone having virtually the same options, not due to any particular talent on the part of the designers. I don't have much faith it'll stay balanced as the factions diversify. Or as it becomes more popular: they've definitely benefitted from being subject to far less scrutiny and abuse than 40k with its more competitive tournament scene.

 

The Imperial Armour books have long been littered with overpriced crap, units with five unique special rules where one universal special rule would suffice, steadfast ignorance of anything being done in the codexes they're supposed to work with, completely impenetrable nonsense rules that don't actually work at all, and the occasional hopelessly bent unit that makes you wish for a table full of Wraithknights. And they're written by the same guys.

[Balthamal]

Sure but it invalidates several Heavy Support slots.

 

This happens time and time again, unlike in 40k where it's updated frequently the same :cussty units stay :cussty while the new hotness rolls out. Happens in 40k sometimes, but it's more apparent in 30k because it's a smaller game.

 

Bear in mind that although you say it's a "small" game there's 18 varieties (or there will be) of army involved. OK they're broadly the same but they're all designed to play differently. And in the last year Solar Auxillia, Mechanicum, Knights, Cult lists have been added, with a (semi) reliable expectation of Daemonic Legions too. That's a massive amount of variety there, just as much as 40k if anything. And if you were referring to size points wise, the FW themselves have said that at a minimum HH should be 2k unless alternative things like Zone Mortalis or the rules presented in Extermination are used.

 

That being said however, it doesn't validate your original point. We know it isn't equal for everyone, and we're cool. Look at all the World Eater and Death Guard love on the forum, if people were really fixated on whether they played as well as a "top" Legion like the IH or AL or even daemon tooled up WBs, there wouldn't be half as many armies out there. Just look back through the threads from years gone by, many of us openly acknowledge that it isn't OP units or game breaking combos, we're here because it's the setting, the models, the potential. And when all is said and done, it's still in a better place than 40k

[Atia]

i'm happy as it is - i don't want to play chess ...

[Jolemai]

i'm happy as it is - i don't want to play chess ...

 

No?

[Raktra]

No perfect balance'll happen because humans aren't perfect. Everything's all in a good state for the most part though, I've never once regretted switching up for 30k. Hell, it's making my desire to paint/model my 40k shrivel up.

[depthcharge12]

Ah yes, the great myth that 30k is balanced spans across several forums. Is it really?

 

Hell no! The Legion list itself has large amounts of dead weight in its Heavy Support and Troops section and it will continue to get larger.

 

The Legions are not balanced in any sense of the word. Compare SoH to RG, plus 1A on the possibility (and a measly rerolling 1s for reserve) that you'll outnumber them to Army wide Infiltrate and Drop Pod Assault without any major downsides.

 

Bottomline; people idolize Forgeworld on these boards and forget that they fall into the same pitfalls as their parent company. They have just as much balancing issues and power creep but because Forgeworld does its Aokay.

I don't think people are falling into group think as much as you think we are. Hell, most people are still having a lot of fun with lists, it's why they've stuck around so long.

 

It is quite possibly way more balanced than 40k, and I dare you to give me three examples of why it's not. Sure there's some power creep from book one on, but that's because they were concerned with how the game would turn out, and thus, were more conservative. However, this argument is pretty invalidated since they got updates, and it's been rumored that there will be more updates to the legions in the next book.

 

Also, why is infiltrate supposedly god tier? I'm going to have to agree with Excessus here. I'd love my enemy to do more infiltrating, it'd mean I can assault them potentially turn one. Hell, if you're that concerned about it, take some thallax. If you're worried about drop pods, take a Morris dread or Deredeo, or even silly 5 point augury scanner upgrades.

 

Honestly, it's learning to play to the strengths of the legions and making sure you have a good objective system in place. I've literally decimated Athrawes force (and he likewise) only to lose because he got more objectives.

 

 

The only power outlier could possibly be mechanicum, and they just fixed that pretty well. I honestly can't validate any of your nebulous claims of inbalance, it just sounds like armchair generaling. Get out and play some more games :)