Just how balanced is this game really?

[Praefectus Invictus]

I won't say it is perfectly balanced, I doubt it'll ever be so. But I've found that 30k provides a basis for a more fun and narrative driven game, with a lot more friendly gameplay than regular 40K. In most of the Heresy games I've played, we just put our models on the table and go from there. It ain't perfect, but its a damn sight better than some of the 40k shenanigans that has been rolled out in the past few months (looking at you harlequins)

[WolfOfHorus]

I hopped over to 30k from playing Chaos when Book 1 came it, the craze at the (at least on Dakka) time was it was self contained and balanced system while not desecrating fluff at the same time, which is quite the claim. For the most part it lived up to that.

 

Why? Because it sacrificed flavor for balance, by not giving any large bonuses for playing any particular Legion it gives semblance of balance while keeping SOME character.

 

This is the crux of the situation, while "balanced" is wasn't very flavorful, the best you got was your Primarch. Book 2 while very flavorful started a downward spiral for "balance", got worse in my opinion in Book 3.

 

I am harsher on 30k because started well then spiraled and 30k communities still say it's balanced. Either it is or it isn't, few people can argue that 40k is balanced and they will rightfully so be laughed at.

 

Bathamal: 30k marines is about as varied gameplay wise as 40k marines.

 

Depthcharge: When you play Chaos for years having the ability of not needing to pay for an HQ or transport to get your infantry in the position you need is very good, if you don't see the worth in the that I'd suggest you play against 40k armies where movement options are more diverse.

[Ishagu]

The Horus Heresy game is a funny beast.

 

There is a lot more balance than regular 40k, and a lot of restrictions that prevent the same kind of abuse as some of the 40k combinations. The Legions can all match up against each-other relatively well.

 

That being said, there is very poor internal balance between the various units. Compare a Recon squad composed of 5 Snipers to 3 Quad Bolter Rapiers, for example. Also, some of the Legions are better than others although clever play and unit selection can compensate in those situations.

[Rage of Khorne]

I've been playing 30K since the first books came out and I can comfortably say (coming from a heavily involved tournament background) that the game is far more balanced than its 40k counterpart. I actually have slowly gravitated away from 40k altogether and now my entire gaming group plays 30k exclusively. I'd say if you want to have some fun games the death guard and word bearers are great choices as they are good enough to win with but also easy enough to learn with.

[Ishagu]

You can still ally B'elakor with the Word Bearers for an Invisible Typhon, Primarch or Termie Star :-P

[depthcharge12]

I hopped over to 30k from playing Chaos when Book 1 came it, the craze at the (at least on Dakka) time was it was self contained and balanced system while not desecrating fluff at the same time, which is quite the claim. For the most part it lived up to that.

 

Why? Because it sacrificed flavor for balance, by not giving any large bonuses for playing any particular Legion it gives semblance of balance while keeping SOME character.

 

This is the crux of the situation, while "balanced" is wasn't very flavorful, the best you got was your Primarch. Book 2 while very flavorful started a downward spiral for "balance", got worse in my opinion in Book 3.

 

I am harsher on 30k because started well then spiraled and 30k communities still say it's balanced. Either it is or it isn't, few people can argue that 40k is balanced and they will rightfully so be laughed at.

 

Bathamal: 30k marines is about as varied gameplay wise as 40k marines.

 

Depthcharge: When you play Chaos for years having the ability of not needing to pay for an HQ or transport to get your infantry in the position you need is very good, if you don't see the worth in the that I'd suggest you play against 40k armies where movement options are more diverse.

Not to sound like an arse, but I'm still not seeing the basis for your argument or any examples proving such. Just saying it's unbalanced doesn't make it unbalanced.

 

Might there be some units better than others? Inevitably, but I still have yet to face a unit I can't deal with. It's not like Taudar shenanigans or Wraithknight D spam or even Decurion wraith crap.

 

Iron hands got you down? Assault them, they suck in cc.

 

Alpha legion infiltrating out the wazoo? Bring cheap augury scanners or get some AdMech allies.

 

There hasn't been an issue of spam this or that to win.

[m_r_parker]

I think we can all probably debate internal 30k Legion balance till this thread gets locked (I'm a bit surprised it's still open to be honest, threads that can dissolve into GW bashing get melta'd quite quick), but I think the overall mechanics of the lists is still the best part of the system in my eyes. As mentioned before, we're still in an older era of build structure, where we don't have the Formations that have come into 40k this edition (or Unbound for that matter), but we have the ability to change about the FOC through Rites of War or by playing different scenarios. With Book V rumoured to have more Rites of War coming to all Legions then I think we'll see a lot variation coming in as certain combo's become more attractive. 

 

Do I wish the Legions covered in Book 1 were a bit stronger? - sure! I would love if some of the units or rules got tweaked (I can't tell you what I would sacrifice to the temple of Bligh to get cheaper Justaerian), but as the Heresy progresses these Legions in theorey should change and get revised lists as their forces devolve further into the mire of Chaos worship and influence. This should give ForgeWorld the opportunity to redress some of the early lists and provide a more level playing field. 

Do I think some of the latter lists and units are a bit too good, and some are just under-powered - yeah! Some combos of Legion rules, Rites of War, and unit type are just plain dirty. Some units bear an incredibly high unit tax (the cost differential beween the cost of the min-size squad and the value of the models that make it up) that could be better reduced to make them more playable.

 

But at least the guys at ForgeWorld do try and make it a balance. Looking at a lot of the 40k Formations and rules it's all about stacking benefits with no drawbacks. At least in the 30k system there are drawbacks to selecting certain styles. Each set of Legion rules and every Rites of War has a set of drawbacks - whether these actually apply to you is another matter, but the effort to include them is there. And ForgeWorld aren't afraid to FAQ or update lists as things progress - we've already had changes to units and rules through the first set of Erratta, and the Mechanicum Red Book that has been released recently has a number of changes from the rules first presented in the main Black Books 

 

I think if we look at the last Legion to get rules, the Ultramarines, I don't think they're overly powerful when compared to some of the other Legions. They get some good doctrine style benefits, but can be seriously hampered if their warlord is killed. The Primarch is a good force multiplier but isn't top-Tier when compared to his brothers. Some units are good, and some are average when compared to the points. Another good indicator will be to see how they tackle the Shattered Legions in the next book, pulling squads from different Legions together with different rules - and they've already said there's going to be serious considerations for people putting together a force based like this.

 

The final thing is that we, as the gaming and collector community, are a fickle and vocal lot. If our favoured Legions aren't given fluffy rules and decent units and characters then we're right on the internet boards to complain. Then we find that other Legions are given (perceived) better rules than what we had previously, so we think that's 'codex creep' and again find ourselves at our keyboards to vent our frustration. All in all, I think the fact that we as a community are very positive towards the entire gaming system (rules, background, models) is actually an achievement. There's the occassional blip, 

[Ishagu]

You mentioned Guilliman isn't top tier when compared to his brothers?

 

He'd beat everyone, bar Horus, 1 on 1 :-P

 

 

 

...just saying.

[Slips]

My view on 30k's Perceived Balance boils down to how hard you want to play.

 

 

Are you going for LVO/Adepticon/NOVA Top Table levels of tryhard? Then, sure, 30k is unbalanced. Why? Because the player in question is trying to get 100% Maximum Cost-Efficiency out of his list and will only ever take what is the most effective, not what is the most fun. Its at this level that you truly start seeing generic lists with little variation because, much like 40k, the same units start to show up everywhere due to how efficient they are. Its also at this level where rules debates will be the most common.

 

Are you in a pretty competitive environment but not to the above levels? Well, sure, you'll still see some of the same units pretty commonly; its a side effect of having the same base Army List to pull from but, you're more likely to see variation since people still want to have a nice, themed force but one that is able to hold up to other form of competition. Most players in this environment should have a solid grasp on the rules with some houseruling present to combat glaring "Da :cuss " moments we might come across in the rules -- no system is truly perfect, after all, lest we create an AI capable of writing a 100% Perfectly balanced an fine-tuned system; yeah, not going to happen any time soon.

 

Are you in a more narratively minded area? Then yeah, at this level, its going to be a bit more balanced that 40ks "I play Eldar and Spam Uber-Efficient Troops and S:D for days and its totally fluffy 'cuz formations". Its also here where people will just play what they think is cool.

 

Different Strokes for different folks.

 

 

You mentioned Guilliman isn't top tier when compared to his brothers?

He'd beat everyone, bar Horus, 1 on 1 :-P



...just saying.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Roboute_Guilliman Would disagree. He loses to Horus, Angron and Fulgrim as well as not taking into account Curze or Corax's Hit & Run and ignoring Lorgars Psychic Shenanigans. Additionally, a Vulkan vs Robute fight would last longer than the actual game so its not an actual victory.

 

Also, its off-topic.

[Ishagu]

Ahh, it's been amended I see.

[Marshal Loss]

Well 30k is heavily based off the lore, and some armies are admittedly stronger than others, but most people I know don't care...30k isn't made to be a competitive game in the same way 40k is still received today.

 

If you want to be pedantic though, look at it this way: the overwhelming majority of the armies are Space Marines with a bit of flavour. It's far easier to balance a game where 18 out of the 22 (18 Legions + SA + Militia + Mechanicum + Knights) armies are Space Marines with minor differences from each other. In addition, the 'codex creep' is virtually non existent in 30k. It has been designed as one game system, and although some of the earlier Legions are a tad weaker when you're covering larges swathes at a time (e.g. 4 Legions in one go) you're not going to have the same problems as 40k, where you have different book after different book etc. By and large, FW have shown they're happy to do chunks at a time and rework those things that fall behind as a result of changing editions.

 

The vast majority of the 'super powerful' units - e.g. Venators, Typhons, Graviton etc - are available to everybody, rather than being the domain of a single army/Legion.

 

Is there perfect inter-list balance? No. Some units are overpriced. Some Legion units are overpriced. But by and large, 30k is extremely well balanced.

 

I genuinely do believe 30k is more balanced, but that isn't why I play it. I play it because i love the lore and the rules are made to almost perfectly reflect that very same lore. I get giddy like a school child when a Rite of War is released and it incentivizes playing a Legion exactly how it works in the books. Absolutely love it. Mind you, I'll still moan about Justaerin being overpriced until the cows come home, but still, it's a fantastic ruleset

[WolfOfHorus]

 

I hopped over to 30k from playing Chaos when Book 1 came it, the craze at the (at least on Dakka) time was it was self contained and balanced system while not desecrating fluff at the same time, which is quite the claim. For the most part it lived up to that.

 

Why? Because it sacrificed flavor for balance, by not giving any large bonuses for playing any particular Legion it gives semblance of balance while keeping SOME character.

 

This is the crux of the situation, while "balanced" is wasn't very flavorful, the best you got was your Primarch. Book 2 while very flavorful started a downward spiral for "balance", got worse in my opinion in Book 3.

 

I am harsher on 30k because started well then spiraled and 30k communities still say it's balanced. Either it is or it isn't, few people can argue that 40k is balanced and they will rightfully so be laughed at.

 

Bathamal: 30k marines is about as varied gameplay wise as 40k marines.

 

Depthcharge: When you play Chaos for years having the ability of not needing to pay for an HQ or transport to get your infantry in the position you need is very good, if you don't see the worth in the that I'd suggest you play against 40k armies where movement options are more diverse.

Not to sound like an arse, but I'm still not seeing the basis for your argument or any examples proving such. Just saying it's unbalanced doesn't make it unbalanced.

 

Might there be some units better than others? Inevitably, but I still have yet to face a unit I can't deal with. It's not like Taudar shenanigans or Wraithknight D spam or even Decurion wraith crap.

 

Iron hands got you down? Assault them, they suck in cc.

 

Alpha legion infiltrating out the wazoo? Bring cheap augury scanners or get some AdMech allies.

 

There hasn't been an issue of spam this or that to win.

Let me ask you this then, have you been to 30k Tournaments? Do you see Destroyers, Recon Marines, Support Squads, Contemptor Talons Heavy Support Squads and Techmarines. I don't and I dont blame players for not taking them because the units are either overpriced or just suck.

 

Just watch a tournament and see how large amounts of units are tossed aside for the latest models.

 

I suppose I am a tad pissed because the tournament I played at recently had 3 AL and 2 RG players with very similar Alpha strike lists.

[Ishagu]

At least every Legion has access to the best models...

 

It's like I said, the unit balance is really poor but at least the best units aren't Legion exclusive.

[Son of Carnelian]

i'm happy as it is - i don't want to play chess ...

 

SWOOSH

 

"ATIA DUNKS ANOTHER ONE!" 

 

Ahem. On a serious note, the casual observation about  "competitive Heresy"  is that it is still HIGHLY narrative driven. People want to win, but people also care about the background and what makes sense for their army. I've seen lists and pictures from events where World Eater players are rushing across the field, Imperial Fists are shield walling it, and Emperor's Children players are sitting in a corner coked out of their minds. One of those might not be true, but you see my point. Whatever imbalances the Age of Darkness may have, they are not compounded by poor behavior most of the time (unlike the main game). 

[m_r_parker]

Tournament play really puts a very specific lens over the system as a whole, as in the largest part lists are built specifically to be points effective whilst delivering the largest punch for the expenditure. It's one style of playing, but it magnifies flaws that would be largely ignored in more friendly play. 

Regardless of the system that's being used in a Tournament, there's always going to be certain builds that are the most effective with minor tweaks for flavour or model restrictions. To say that a system isn't balanced based on Tournament play alone is fairly extreme.

[Atia]

Tournament play really puts a very specific lens over the system as a whole, as in the largest part lists are built specifically to be points effective whilst delivering the largest punch for the expenditure. It's one style of playing, but it magnifies flaws that would be largely ignored in more friendly play. 

Regardless of the system that's being used in a Tournament, there's always going to be certain builds that are the most effective with minor tweaks for flavour or model restrictions. To say that a system isn't balanced based on Tournament play alone is fairly extreme.

 

Tournament play isn't supported by GW or FW - also, HH was NEVER intented to be a tournament system, it's a fluff-driven system ...

[WolfOfHorus]

How is it wrong to expect units to be priced correctly, it would make for better tournaments and better casual games.

[Balthamal]

To put it bluntly, the vast majority of HH players don't give a about tournament play. I appreciate what you're saying and you do have a valid point but you're basing it on the idea that everyone wants perfectly leveled units with cost x perk y weakness z whereas most of us simply don't care - we love it for what it is not what it could/would/should be

And to say it would make casual games better is highly subjective, some of the best games I've ever played have been stupidly unbalanced but that hasn't meant they haven't been great

EDIT: I'd go out on a limb and say a hell of a lot of HH players have come to HH to escape from the tournament focused environment that 40k is becoming saturated with - constant talk of meta/deathstars/formations etc etc etc

[Jolemai]

How is it wrong to expect units to be priced correctly...

If the designers shared this view, it would have been changed by now, no?

[Adra'Melek]

Wrote some stuff, deleted it again.

 

Each to their own. From the very beginning this hasn't been released for tournament play. If you try and use for that and it doesn't work well enough...tough. Square peg, round hole.  Just leave it alone, it's clearly not for you. I won't benefit from minor tweaks that mean tournament players bring more varied lists. I'll be taking my Salamander Contemptor Talon (2x CCW and ibHF) regardless.

[depthcharge12]

 

 

I hopped over to 30k from playing Chaos when Book 1 came it, the craze at the (at least on Dakka) time was it was self contained and balanced system while not desecrating fluff at the same time, which is quite the claim. For the most part it lived up to that.

 

Why? Because it sacrificed flavor for balance, by not giving any large bonuses for playing any particular Legion it gives semblance of balance while keeping SOME character.

 

This is the crux of the situation, while "balanced" is wasn't very flavorful, the best you got was your Primarch. Book 2 while very flavorful started a downward spiral for "balance", got worse in my opinion in Book 3.

 

I am harsher on 30k because started well then spiraled and 30k communities still say it's balanced. Either it is or it isn't, few people can argue that 40k is balanced and they will rightfully so be laughed at.

 

Bathamal: 30k marines is about as varied gameplay wise as 40k marines.

 

Depthcharge: When you play Chaos for years having the ability of not needing to pay for an HQ or transport to get your infantry in the position you need is very good, if you don't see the worth in the that I'd suggest you play against 40k armies where movement options are more diverse.

Not to sound like an arse, but I'm still not seeing the basis for your argument or any examples proving such. Just saying it's unbalanced doesn't make it unbalanced.

 

Might there be some units better than others? Inevitably, but I still have yet to face a unit I can't deal with. It's not like Taudar shenanigans or Wraithknight D spam or even Decurion wraith crap.

 

Iron hands got you down? Assault them, they suck in cc.

 

Alpha legion infiltrating out the wazoo? Bring cheap augury scanners or get some AdMech allies.

 

There hasn't been an issue of spam this or that to win.

Let me ask you this then, have you been to 30k Tournaments? Do you see Destroyers, Recon Marines, Support Squads, Contemptor Talons Heavy Support Squads and Techmarines. I don't and I dont blame players for not taking them because the units are either overpriced or just suck.

 

Just watch a tournament and see how large amounts of units are tossed aside for the latest models.

 

I suppose I am a tad pissed because the tournament I played at recently had 3 AL and 2 RG players with very similar Alpha strike lists.

So that should be easy to counter, no? :)

 

Athrawes has run 10 man volkite culverin squads to deleterious effect, and I've heard of good results of auto cannon blobs. Why not take a squad of them, slap an augury scanner on them, and intercept the hell out of deep strike/reserve units?

 

Contemptors I can speak for being very good, though I've not had the initiative to run a talon. Hesh Kadesh swears by two of them loaded with grav cannons for killing Spartans and such.

 

I guess in a tournament scene, you can't account for things like sportsmanship, but you should sort of expect that for such things. However, I've still found most people to be pretty levelheaded compared to the 40k tournie scene. Just watch ww40k guys on YouTube as a reference (bunch of drunk Aussies playing the heresy, what's not to love?)

 

Anyone can make a heaven out of hell, or a hell out of heaven man. It's how you come to these games and expect results - if something's not working, try something new! It just might throw off the meta.

[WolfOfHorus]

 

How is it wrong to expect units to be priced correctly...

If the designers shared this view, it would have been changed by now, no?

I have one English friend I used to play DoW2 with and he goes events hosted by Forgeworld to pick up goodies and asks the designers questions, I had him ask about Recon Marines and why they are terrible and the designer said yes they were terrible but to fix them they'd either have to release a new LACAL style book or release a large FAQ.

 

Both would be time consuming and expensive, the decision was made for those units years ago and it's too late to change that.

[Raktra]

 

Let me ask you this then, have you been to 30k Tournaments? Do you see Destroyers, Support Squads, Contemptor Talons, Heavy Support Squads

 

Yes.

[Stofficus]

Is 30k as balanced as, say, Infinity or Bolt Action? No. Is it as unbalanced as 40k? Absolutely not. 

Most of this has to do with playtesting. 40k's stuff is consistently untested with no coherent metric for assigning points values, something Jervis loudly boasts of. 30k is tested until it breaks, which is why while there are sub-par units, the "best" units are not so egregious as to ever be game breaking. There will always be some imbalance, but the gulfs between things are nowhere near as bad as in the arbitrary land of game design that is 40k. 

It was easy to belittle it with "well it's just marines" in its early incarnation (which several in my group still use which is somewhat tiring), but with 12 different subfactions, of which only one is truly "bad," (The Emperor's Children), plus three radically different non-astartes factions which all mesh into the game quite well, the track record thus far is quite solid. 

Could 30k benefit from some solid FAQs to help some of the under performing things? Absolutely, Phoenix Terminators, Destroyers, Recon Sections and the like could use some love, and Deredeos and Typhons could probably do with a points increase, but alas we are unlikely to see that for some time in this post-FAQ/Errata age. 

I'd rather endure the worst of 30k, however, than, well, almost the entirety of 40k. 

[DuskRaider]

Do Legions from Book One need a boost in a few ways to be on a level playing field with the newer Legions? Yeah. Does it have to be like playin chess? Absolutely not. Pricing issues, rules issues for wargear, even the occasional misplacement of units in the force organization... Are the first Legions still competitive? Yes.

 

30K balance makes 40K an embarrassment.

 

And please keep tournaments away from this game, it was built to have fun.