Need help building guard tournament lists

[greycat]

So after the initial release of the Astra militarum codex my success has been less guaranteed on the tabletop with each new release. This is understandable with codex creep. In order to get back on top of my local meta though I would ask for any advice or combos that you can think of to combat the invisible deathstars and knight spam.

 

I am not opposed to running allies but in general I feel that the points are better spent on more guard. Is there something I should be taking more of or less of?

 

Current list is:

pask in a punisher

Demolisher

 

Yarrick

Priest

 

50 man guard blob with axes, melta bombs and flamers

 

Eradicator

2x Leman Russ

Vendetta

3x wyvern

 

Let me know.

[WarriorFish]

Hopefully when we get our update it bumps us up the pecking order but until then we'll have to settle for being a solid middle tier codex :P Pask and tank commanders in general aren't a good choice for Demolishers - a single inch difference in the pie plate isn't going to make a big difference. Pask rocking a Punisher or Vanquisher if you want to stay back is common use for good reason, and a Punisher with Rending might help against those deathstars.

 

Wyverns are good (2 in a squadron is enough, 3 will be hilarious though albeit painstaking to resolve) and along with an Eradicator and your general trooper contingent should give you respectable anti-personnel capabilities so outside of that I'd focus on bigger fish. Plasma is always useful for tackling hard targets for example and if you want a buff a psyker to try and get re-rolls would help.

 

What sort of troubles are you having? Knights in general, or Knight lists? What sort of deathstars are you encountering? The more information you give the more people can help :)

[greycat]

I was using the demolisher because of preferred enemy. Rerolling 1's on str 10 is great but what other tank would work with Pask ? I have two executioners I am building so I could swap some things around.

 

In general one knight is fine as I have enough anti tank but a full list crushes my tanks before I can stop them and then just mops the infantry. Deathstars when they have tigirious and invisibility are awful.

 

I'm playing at 1850 pts at the moment.

[Captain Caine 24th]

You've actually got some great elements in there. I think one of chief problems with leman russ's is the combination of not enough range and not enough shots. To mitigate that it really helps to have a large board area control unit(s), like the blob squad you have there. One of my favorite combos is to use primaris psykers on divination to get blob squads that 4+ invuln. The other problem I have with lemans is that I've had trouble with cover saves more and more. So, my demolishers tend to do little damage (though they still draw fire which has a use on its own). Still, preferred enemy will get you more dice at the wound/penetrate level and it should force more saves. What are your thoughts on more infantry?

[Centurio]

I like to put Pask in a punisher with 2 executioners with plasma sponsons. This is a marine eraser and park can split fire to destroy one enemy tank per turn as necessary.

[Centurio]

As far as the invisible deathstars, I know you said you didn't like allies, but look at putting a culexus in your vendetta and dropping him near the deathstar. Then drop 10 plasma blasts on it from Pask's squad.

[greycat]

You've actually got some great elements in there. I think one of chief problems with leman russ's is the combination of not enough range and not enough shots. To mitigate that it really helps to have a large board area control unit(s), like the blob squad you have there. One of my favorite combos is to use primaris psykers on divination to get blob squads that 4+ invuln. The other problem I have with lemans is that I've had trouble with cover saves more and more. So, my demolishers tend to do little damage (though they still draw fire which has a use on its own). Still, preferred enemy will get you more dice at the wound/penetrate level and it should force more saves. What are your thoughts on more infantry?

 

Well the theory behind my list was to mitigate killpoints and provide a super tough army to crack which could also fight in close combat and have ranged superiority. Not allowing the opponent first blood was also on my mind so they either have to kill AV14 or a unit of 50 guard in one turn which is a tough proposition. You are right about the lack of shots. I have plenty of blasts but except for the punisher nothing that just shoots. Apart from the vanquisher which is terrible without pask, and the vendetta, guard dont really have any long range anti tank. The vendetta is the best anti tank we have but isnt on the table turn one and doesnt ignore cover anyway. I have multiple weapon teams to choose from which I could add into the blob but I usually like to run the blob into the opponents face so it seems like a waste. Should I even just drop the close combat side and go lascannon teams with melta's as the special weapons and melta bombs? That would surely ruin a knights day.

 

My thoughts on more infantry is suggest something to try out and I will. I have around 110 various guardsmen and am still increasing this number so I have quite a lot of troops to play with.

 

I havent tried a psyker at all so that could be the answer, people have also suggested running a dark angels allied list. Azrael, a librarian and a scout unit. Azrael gives 4++ to the unit, the librarian can give invisibility and a priest will allow me to re-roll the 4++ as far as I am aware. Any tips to using psychic powers?

I like to put Pask in a punisher with 2 executioners with plasma sponsons. This is a marine eraser and park can split fire to destroy one enemy tank per turn as necessary.

 

Haha that is exactly why I am building the two executioners at the moment. I fear that I am not really solving my knights problem just the deathstar problem (which isnt a bad thing).

 

As far as the invisible deathstars, I know you said you didn't like allies, but look at putting a culexus in your vendetta and dropping him near the deathstar. Then drop 10 plasma blasts on it from Pask's squad.

 

I didn't like allies just because I didnt really feel there was anything worth adding but Azrael might be a good idea and I really like the idea of a culexus assassin. That would actually solve a lot of my problems. Have you ever used him? Doesn't he do something like automatic perils of the warp plus shots based on their psychic level?

 

 

Thanks for the tips guys its given me quite a few things to think about and things I definitely want to try. If you have any more suggestions send them my way.

[gomericus]

Yes ,,,drop all your tanks,,,take infantry,,,more infantry and field guns,,,,no one expects the inquish,,,,er the foot guard

[WarriorFish]

The problem with kill points is it screws over non-elite armies. I ignore it now and play to other strengths - its something we're never going to avoid without costing us elsewhere. Knights can be tricky with their shielding, most reliable way to take them down is from two angles but easier said than done but again more units and options helps here.

[greycat]

The problem with kill points is it screws over non-elite armies. I ignore it now and play to other strengths - its something we're never going to avoid without costing us elsewhere. Knights can be tricky with their shielding, most reliable way to take them down is from two angles but easier said than done but again more units and options helps here.

 

Yea thats true it was also to prevent first blood which in a lot of competitive games can really be a deciding factor. Im going to try running three scions squads with meltas and see how that goes against the knights and take a culexus inside the vendetta for the invisible squads. I think I'll drop a leman russ and a wyvern and a few more things and see how I go.

 

How do you usually deal with knights?

[WarriorFish]

I've yet to encounter a Knight, but I know enough about them and the rules to understand how they work (also building my own :) ). They're tough, but not unstoppable my AT plans try to have some long and short ranged capability to cover more angles. Long range is safer and easier to use, but short range hits a lot harder, then it's mostly about focusing your fire and target prioritisation.

 

For example if you set up your best AT somewhere expect your opponent to direct his shielding that way. All of a sudden it becomes less effective which would be a big problem if that's your main AT, so spreading AT out is a good idea. You can never go wrong forcing decisions on your opponent, so make them difficult! What I'd do is target the Knight with long range, hoping to draw the shielding and then dropping in as many meltas as I can (Scions, Vets). Most things can be dealt with if you get enough units/guns in on them, and its the Guard way no less ;)

 

The other thing to remember is that you must consider if the Knight isn't also there to try and distract you and absorb fire/attention. Winning is more than removing models (unless you get them all! :P ) but there's no harm in preparing for a Knight or even deliberately going for it if that's what you want to do. Knights are expensive and powerful so there's not going to be an easy solution, so trust in the Guard's strengths of numbers and fire power!

[Median]

I regularly play against 2+ knights. One method I found that works is veterans with 3 melta and demolitions. If they survive then the 3 melta shots and then charging into melee and slapping on upto 10 melta bombs will make any knight player cry....again, the trick is trying to survive to get that close. Sticking to ruins and praying you roll the warlord trait that gives you move through cover ruins helps too and the forward sentries for a 2+ cover save can increase your survivability :^)

[WarriorFish]

I forgot about Demolitions, good idea!

[greycat]

I've yet to encounter a Knight, but I know enough about them and the rules to understand how they work (also building my own ). They're tough, but not unstoppable my AT plans try to have some long and short ranged capability to cover more angles. Long range is safer and easier to use, but short range hits a lot harder, then it's mostly about focusing your fire and target prioritisation.

For example if you set up your best AT somewhere expect your opponent to direct his shielding that way. All of a sudden it becomes less effective which would be a big problem if that's your main AT, so spreading AT out is a good idea. You can never go wrong forcing decisions on your opponent, so make them difficult! What I'd do is target the Knight with long range, hoping to draw the shielding and then dropping in as many meltas as I can (Scions, Vets). Most things can be dealt with if you get enough units/guns in on them, and its the Guard way no less

The other thing to remember is that you must consider if the Knight isn't also there to try and distract you and absorb fire/attention. Winning is more than removing models (unless you get them all! ) but there's no harm in preparing for a Knight or even deliberately going for it if that's what you want to do. Knights are expensive and powerful so there's not going to be an easy solution, so trust in the Guard's strengths of numbers and fire power!

You are correct in saying that I should be careful in what the opposing player is trying to do with his knight. A lot of the time they do use them simply as a distraction and run them forward trying to cause the maximum amount of damage. Usually I am able to deal with one with shots from my vendetta, leman russes, demolisher and pask in a punisher. Its not particularly efficient but I usually destroy it before reaches my lines. If it does reach my lines my blob with 5x melta bombs will usually be enough to stop it but then there is the issue of it exploding and destroying the blob.

Encountering knights is pretty rough, they move really fast and are usually assaulting by turn two.

I regularly play against 2+ knights. One method I found that works is veterans with 3 melta and demolitions. If they survive then the 3 melta shots and then charging into melee and slapping on upto 10 melta bombs will make any knight player cry....again, the trick is trying to survive to get that close. Sticking to ruins and praying you roll the warlord trait that gives you move through cover ruins helps too and the forward sentries for a 2+ cover save can increase your survivability :^)

So you dont run them in any sort of transport? I guess it does mean that they are free just to run into the path of the knight and hopefully pop it with shooting or combat. Do you bother giving them carapace or just use the cover saves? Hmm... I have a lot of things to shake up for my army. I'll see how I go.

The goal is to make an all comer's list for local tournaments which is pretty difficult but if I know the meta then I should be able to do fairly well.

[Median]

Personally I run them in transports along with carapace armour. Cause when the transport explodes you want to make as many saves as possible.....that and one of my main opponents plays marines, so I can laugh at the bolter fire :^)

You do run the danger of having a real high cost per unit tho.

I have also found that Las cannon heavy weapon teams being given orders can work well, but you run the risk of one battle cannon shot wiping the unit out really quickly

[Median]

Also, like warriorfish said...strength in numbers. So go for 3+ units of vets.

The last game I played against knight I was experimenting with a different setup. I went for 3 units of vets equipped above with chimeras.

Pask in a punisher with lascannon and multimeltas and an exterminator wingman equipped the same.

2 wyverns

1 vendetta

2 units of 5 ratlings

Tempests allies which consisted of a taurox prime. A command squad with 2 melts and I think it was 6 units of tempestus each of 2 melta.

Left the allies in reserve with Pask as well...cause we all know who's gonna get shot at first.

To cut a long story short all the vets kills the first knight in turn 1 and the scions and Pask killed the other one in turn 2. That was half of his army in dead, the rest of them were mopped up over the next few turns

[march10k]

For tournament play, punisher pask is a bit of a bad idea for a couple of reasons.  First, if "slay the warlord" is in play, then you're basically giving him away when you throw him out front.  Second, tournaments often have funky custom scenarios where you score big by killing the enemy warlord in melee, or in a challenge.  Pask is way too easy to melee to death, he's basically defenseless.  If the victory condition is to slay him in a challenge, you likely auto-concede that to your opponent.  If not, he has zero chance of claiming those points...either way, it's stupid.  I'm not against tank commanders in IG tourney lists, but they're a bit off the beaten path as warlords.  It's the fault of the TO for not thinking about this when designing his games, but that doesn't make it non-problematic...  In a tournament, I'd take a CCS as my warlord (two squads of forward sentries can go to ground for 2++ in ruins, and still shoot!!!), and if the enemy has extra motivation to kill it, I'll stuff it in a vendetta for safekeeping.

 

Vendettas are great in WAAC play, as are wyverns. But one vendetta and two wyverns per FOC slot would be my limit.  three wyverns in one squadron is overkill (although 2x2 is great), and six godhammers shooting at the same target is incredibly wasteful if that target isn't superheavy.

 

I know that a lot of people like carapace vets, but I think forward sentries are better.  I tend to divide my units into two categories: stuff I'm stuffing in the enemy's face, and stuff that's providing fire support.  Vets in the first category would have carapace, but that wouldn't keep them alive any longer than it keeps aggro fire warriors alive, and the fire warriors have better guns.  My own solution is mechanized forward sentries with autocannons.  145 points a squad.  The vets go in cover, preferably ruins next to an objective, and the empty chimeras are my mobile superscorers.  In general, I find that my backfield stuff gets ignored because the enemy is too busy dealing with my chimeras, sentinels, and demolishers.  That, and their 3++, keeps my vets alive.  And as long as they're alive, they're reaching out with that autocannon while capping an objective in relative comfort and security.

 

My own tournament list would probably include pask, but as mentioned, a CCS would be my warlord, and pask would be in a vanquisher in back.  I'd field four of the aforementioned vet squads, giving me a dual CAD and thus six heavy support slots...besides the pair of wyverns, I'd throw out two demolishers and two eraditcators, four AV14 tanks rushing upfield with four chimeras, while the CCS (3x plasma, carapace, medkit, and deathmask) hangs out in back with the four autocannon squads and the pair of wyverns.

[greycat]

Well I have got a game lined up for next week so I'll see how all this new information goes. I know the guy Im playing against will have at least one knight so I'll give the new advice a try and see how I go. The information so far has been really useful and I am definitely learning a lot. I havent really played competitively since 5th ed but I am hoping to get back into it hence starting this thread.

 

Personally I run them in transports along with carapace armour. Cause when the transport explodes you want to make as many saves as possible.....that and one of my main opponents plays marines, so I can laugh at the bolter fire :^)
You do run the danger of having a real high cost per unit tho.
I have also found that Las cannon heavy weapon teams being given orders can work well, but you run the risk of one battle cannon shot wiping the unit out really quickly

 

Yea I used to run a lot of veterans in chimeras with carapace and plasma guns but then the meta changed so blobs and tanks became more effective. It seems to be changing again so I'll try to change with it. Maybe I'll not bother with the chimeras or carapace at all and just run them with demolitions and camo cloaks. Should be cheap enough and survivable enough to just move from cover and charge the knight or trick the knight into charging me ;).

 

I have found the same thing too. Lascannons teams are great... until they get shot at. One of my friends runs his lascannons within the blob so they can't be shot out. Maybe the answer is to run two blobs, one close combat and one ranged. By themselves they are pretty expensive at 105pts for 3 lascannon teams which will wither under any sort of shooting.

 

Also, like warriorfish said...strength in numbers. So go for 3+ units of vets.
The last game I played against knight I was experimenting with a different setup. I went for 3 units of vets equipped above with chimeras.
Pask in a punisher with lascannon and multimeltas and an exterminator wingman equipped the same.
2 wyverns
1 vendetta
2 units of 5 ratlings
Tempests allies which consisted of a taurox prime. A command squad with 2 melts and I think it was 6 units of tempestus each of 2 melta.
Left the allies in reserve with Pask as well...cause we all know who's gonna get shot at first.
To cut a long story short all the vets kills the first knight in turn 1 and the scions and Pask killed the other one in turn 2. That was half of his army in dead, the rest of them were mopped up over the next few turns

 

Nice so Im guessing you went second the knight ran forward in his turn and in your turn you just melta'd him to death? Hmm... I usually leave pask on the table from the start just to have more of a threat.  Sounds like it worked out well for you though. What was he runnning apart from the knights?

 

For tournament play, punisher pask is a bit of a bad idea for a couple of reasons.  First, if "slay the warlord" is in play, then you're basically giving him away when you throw him out front.  Second, tournaments often have funky custom scenarios where you score big by killing the enemy warlord in melee, or in a challenge.  Pask is way too easy to melee to death, he's basically defenseless.  If the victory condition is to slay him in a challenge, you likely auto-concede that to your opponent.  If not, he has zero chance of claiming those points...either way, it's stupid.  I'm not against tank commanders in IG tourney lists, but they're a bit off the beaten path as warlords.  It's the fault of the TO for not thinking about this when designing his games, but that doesn't make it non-problematic...  In a tournament, I'd take a CCS as my warlord (two squads of forward sentries can go to ground for 2++ in ruins, and still shoot!!!), and if the enemy has extra motivation to kill it, I'll stuff it in a vendetta for safekeeping.

 

Vendettas are great in WAAC play, as are wyverns. But one vendetta and two wyverns per FOC slot would be my limit.  three wyverns in one squadron is overkill (although 2x2 is great), and six godhammers shooting at the same target is incredibly wasteful if that target isn't superheavy.

 

I know that a lot of people like carapace vets, but I think forward sentries are better.  I tend to divide my units into two categories: stuff I'm stuffing in the enemy's face, and stuff that's providing fire support.  Vets in the first category would have carapace, but that wouldn't keep them alive any longer than it keeps aggro fire warriors alive, and the fire warriors have better guns.  My own solution is mechanized forward sentries with autocannons.  145 points a squad.  The vets go in cover, preferably ruins next to an objective, and the empty chimeras are my mobile superscorers.  In general, I find that my backfield stuff gets ignored because the enemy is too busy dealing with my chimeras, sentinels, and demolishers.  That, and their 3++, keeps my vets alive.  And as long as they're alive, they're reaching out with that autocannon while capping an objective in relative comfort and security.

 

My own tournament list would probably include pask, but as mentioned, a CCS would be my warlord, and pask would be in a vanquisher in back.  I'd field four of the aforementioned vet squads, giving me a dual CAD and thus six heavy support slots...besides the pair of wyverns, I'd throw out two demolishers and two eraditcators, four AV14 tanks rushing upfield with four chimeras, while the CCS (3x plasma, carapace, medkit, and deathmask) hangs out in back with the four autocannon squads and the pair of wyverns.

 

Hmm... You make a lot of sense with what you are saying. I do run him as my warlord but then you are right in that I wouldnt get any benefits from slay the warlord or similar that tournaments do usually have. I can understand them not catering for just one character of one codex. I do have to build towards whatever tournament I will play at next. How would you score those extra points though. It's not like guard have prolific close combat fighters anyway. The two toughest, straken and Yarrick still get slapped by any sort of dedicated close combat hero from almost any other army. Pask in a punisher does tend to put out a lot of damage but maybe running a tank commander in a vanquisher with multi melta sponsons is better and have yarrick as my warlord? I know you said you would take a CCS but how would you equip them to survive? Carapace and camo cloaks or just hide them out of sight?

 

Yea I have been realising that 3 wyverns is a bit too much. The only time they have been really great is against orks or 'nids who have huge blobs. Otherwise it does tend to be a lot of wasted shots. Currently I only have one vendetta but I think I will have to get one more just to have some redundancy. They are quite expensive now though at 170pts. I wouldnt run them in a squadron anyway. I prefer being able to shoot at separate targets.

 

Interesting that you run a lot of veterans. I'll probably stick with a blob for my mainstay troops but maybe try some more veteran units. Im not too worried about CAD's at all as the list I have been running is unbound anyway. So when I take vehicles they almost are never in units unless I want them to be.

[Median]

The second half of his army were basically a drop pod assault. So I knew if pask was on the board in turn one then a whole bunch of melta sternguard would show up and nuke him. Like march10k said, it would of been free victory points. I tried to be sneaky with him, so when he came on he was tight against the edge of tea board with his wingman next to him to take any shots from the turn 3 drop pods (he got unlucky with his reserve rolls on turn 2)that would try to kill him. Amazingly it actually worked. The wingman got killed but it left pask alive to kill them...with some scion support