Fire Discipline and movement : cannot find a reference...

[Master Avoghai]

Hi all

 

Yesterday I've played against a KDK army and you guess that's against such army, I've profited from the supreme fire discipline of my Lion's blade ;)

 

 

However a situation occurs and was a little controversial.

 

I've poded my devastator squad close from a bersekers squad. the devastator contained 3 grav cannons. (on the following pic they are in the building on the bottom left)

 

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/Masteravoghai/Rapports%20de%20bataille/A76FABC3-934A-4494-9C61-B1745DDB2132.jpg

 

Following the rules I've shot 3x3 grav shots at 9".

 

Withe the help of the imperial knight and his thermal cannon I've vaporised the bersekers.

 

But during the KDK turns, my opponent decided to claim revenge and to charge my devastator with his maulerfiend (not on the pic, he was hidding behind the hill on the bottom left)

 

I launched the supreme fire discipline but here's where lies the problem.

 

Should I shoot 3x3 (because I moved during my previous turn) or 3x5 (because it's another turn)

 

Same probleme concerning an heavy weapon : let's say I pod 4 multi melta, the following turn, my opponent decide to charge me.

 

Should I hit on 3+ because of the supreme fire discipline or on 6+ because the MMs have moved the previous turn?

[Caldria]

I've played a game so similar to this recently, also against KDK. Also with big dev squad with 3 GCs in a pod. We played it that my overwatch the following turn was as if they were stationary. It's the same as if we were to use multi-meltas. we'd overwatch at BS4, and not snap fire it, due to moving in the previous turn. To be honest I can't find any reference either, however, I also see nothing against it.

We move/shoot in our turn then we are stationary in our opponents turn and as such fire full salvo with overwatch. That's the way we've played it, so not sure if we're doing it wrong - but I don't think we are.

On a side note - I love this unit loadout (was never a big fan of Devastators until we got grav and I tried them podded like this - also a big fan of 2 GCs in a rhino now too)

[Master Avoghai]

The only thing I've found that goes in this direction is the weapons descriptions stating that you have to consider THE previous movement phase and not HIS previous movement phase.

 

So since obviously the overwatching model has not moved during the movement phase just before (since it was the opposing player's movement phase) he can use the weapon's full potential...

 

But it's quite poor in term of argument

[shabbadoo]

The Overwatch section on p. 45. tells us that all firing is conducted as normal, in all ways - it just happens during the enemy Assault Phase.  There is no movement, so the unit is stationary when firing Overwatch, and so it fires to full effect (i.e. 5 shots per grav cannon using Supreme Fire Discipline).  The only thing you need to worry about is how far away the charging unit is when it declares its charge, as that is the range you fire Overwatch at. That will not be an issue for grav cannons, but it could be for pistols and other short range weapons.

[Master Avoghai]

The Overwatch section on p. 45. tells us that all firing is conducted as normal, in all ways - it just happens during the enemy Assault Phase. There is no movement, so the unit is stationary when firing Overwatch, and so it fires to full effect

Yes but since it is conducted as normal, then it is influenced by movement like a normal shot.

 

The problem lies on the meaning of "previous movement phase". Does it means

 

a/ the overwatching player's movement phase

b/ the chaging player's movement phase

[Chaplain Lucifer]

IMHO, If you moved in your previous movement phase, that movement carries to your next phase. We can take vehicles as example since if they move, they count as being moved during the opponents phase right to their new turn, where they elect to move again or remain stationary.

[SnakeChisler]

If you move in your phase it carries over to the start of the next turn

 

This doesn't apply to moving in your opponents turn though so if your forced to disembark from a wrecked transport your counted as stationary for your turn if you don't move, same goes for a regroup from fall back

[Interrogator Stobz]

I disagree due to RAW (I do however agree when considering the spirit of the game), please bear with my little rules lawyering:

Page 42 of the BRB Salvo Weapons gives "If the model has not moved..." but does not give detail about when (hence this discussion).

Page 45 of the BRB, Resolve Overwatch does not mention any previous phase or turn, and specifically speaks of range, LoS, cover, and so on. (this provides some doubt, but is not specifically a movement issue)

Page 40 of the BRB indicates in the 'Type' paragraph that- "These rules measure a weapons portability and affect the way they can be fired, depending on whether or not the model carrying them moved that turn."

Page 17 refers to "a turn always means 'player turn' unless it specifically refers to a 'game turn'. It does not that I am aware of, and does not on page 45 where it has the opportunity.

Anyone see a problem, or have I missed anything?

bs

[shabbadoo]

Right.  I am fairly sure that movement just influences everything else for the rest of the player turn the unit moved in, not any other turn, including the opponent's.  Nothing states that any negative effeccts of Movement carry over to the beginning of the player's next turn.  (player) turn and (game) turn are two very different things.  If it was game turn, then we would have different things happening depending on whether or not a player went first or second in the game turn and moved a unit, and if the opponent then charged that unit right afterwards, as follows:

 

Game Turn 1

1st player turn: Devastator Squad moves and fires grav cannons.

2nd player turn: Berserkers charge Devastator Squad. Devastator Squad counts as moving, as it is the same game turn, so it fires 3 shots per grav cannon.

 

...versus...

 

Game Turn 1

1st player turn: Berserkers move.

2nd player turn: Devastator Squad moves and fires grav cannons.

 

Game Turn 2

1st player turn: Berserkers charge Devastator Squad. Devastator Squad deos NOT count as moving, as it is a new game turn, so it fires 5 shots per grav cannon.

 

Movement as a factor only affects firing during the current player turn, thus avoiding the above variable shananigans.  So, Overwatch will be conducted by a unit as if it were stationary during the opponent's turn unless it was actually forced to move in some way during the opponent's turn. The only circumstance I can think of where this could happen is if the Devastator Squad was shot up by an enemy unit, it failed Morale, fell back, and recovered (such as And They Shall Know No Fear allows for), and was then Assaulted by an enemy unit. The Devastator Squad will then have moved that turn, and any Overwatch fire would then be made as if the unit had moved that turn (because it did).  Okay, one more circumstance comes to mind.  An enemy vehicle Tank Shocks the Devastator Squad during the Movement Phase, forcing it to move out of the way during the opponent's turn.  The Devastator Squad just moved during the enemy turn, so if it was subsequently charged by an enemy unit and fired Overwatch, it would count as having moved that turn (because it did).  Can anybody think of any other circumstance where the Devastator Squad could be forced to move during the opponent's turn, other than for falling back or moving out of the way of a Tank Shock?

[Master Avoghai]

Can anybody think of any other circumstance where the Devastator Squad could be forced to move durin the opponent's turn, other than for falling back or moving out of the way of a Tank Shock?

Yes

 

The devastator squad is in a rhino that is destroyed by a melta shot. A berserkers squad close from them chose to charge them.

Since disembarking count as moving they are considered as having moved.

[shabbadoo]

Surely. Anything else, other than for these three?

[DarkAngeal]

The Overwatch section on p. 45. tells us that all firing is conducted as normal, in all ways - it just happens during the enemy Assault Phase. There is no movement, so the unit is stationary when firing Overwatch, and so it fires to full effect (i.e. 5 shots per grav cannon using Supreme Fire Discipline). The only thing you need to worry about is how far away the charging unit is when it declares its charge, as that is the range you fire Overwatch at. That will not be an issue for grav cannons, but it could be for pistols, flamers, and other short range weapons.

Flamers? Flamers cannot fire overwatch, and therefore you don't need to worry about their range for overwatch. The DO have the "wall of death" special rule, which always goes off, regardless of a 1" charge or a 12" charge.

[shabbadoo]

Yes, flamers do have a special rule that supercedes the range requirement.  Forgot to leave them out. Edit, edit, edit...